XxMerlinxX

iTrader: (2)

My A/C system desperately needs a pick me up of some sort. I figured before replacing the entire system, I'd just try recharging it first. A lot of R12 out there right now is either sub-par, very costly, or most shops are just scared of it. Has anybody had good results with Freeze-12? If so, what was your experience and how much of this stuff should I pick up?

SportCoupe2

Freeze 12 isn't as good as R12 of course but it is a very good replacement for it. IMO it is better then R134 due to the lower operating psi.

In my area only a few places carry Freeze 12 and they all ask for a mobile license to purchase it. Cost is around $8 per 12 oz can. You use 10% less then R12. I plan on using it when my car is back together. I can't stand a R134 conversion on a R12 car. They never really work well mainly due to the smaller condenser that R12 vehicles used.

T2 Tsunami

iTrader: (3)

Does anyone have a walk through that explains EXACTLY how to recharge it....like which pipe is used to fill..ect.?. The manual shows how to fill it with some professional looking device.

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

Go to and use: http://www.es-refrigerants.com/.
Better than R12 and R134 and safer for you and the enviroment.

Change out the two old R12 valves, replace with 134 valves; add about two once new oil, vacuum out system, and finally add new refrigerant.

It is easy, even the first time if you have: the gauges, air pump, and simple
venturi vacuum pump.

wthx100

Try duracool it's r-12a and enviro friendly cools better than r134a saves tons of money from a conversion.

Speed of light

iTrader: (8)

+1

Additionally:

Freeze 12 is a blended Refrigerant containing R134a and R142, an HCFC. The use of R142 allows it to be put into a mineral oil based system used for R12, which is why it makes a better conversion than straight R134 (which alone, requires the rather problematic PAG oil). Additionally, because it is blended, it has a better pressure/temperature characteristic than straight R134, and it does cool better. IMO The best use for Freeze 12 is to service or top off an existing R134 system. It will improve the performance of any R134 system. If your system is prone to leaks, I don't recommend this as the R134a component will find the leaks. Go directly to an HC, which doesn't tend to leak much.

--however--

Given a choice, I highly recommend using an HC (hydrocarbon) refrigerant; they have proved to be the best performers for my money. Go here: http://autorefrigerants.com/ They sell both the ES-Refrigerants and Freeze 12 but without the rediculous hazmat fee that es-refrigerants.com charges.

Just buy this ES-12 or ES I-12a stuff and put it in. FD = 2 cans. If your system is in decent condition, it will do a great job and you will be happy.

Important notes:
1) Some shops will not sell or install the HC or ES refrigerants. They will give you a bunch of BS excuses and maybe try to tell you your car will blow up and scare you, but it's all pure, unadulterated bullshit. If they will not do it, keep looking until you find someone that does. You may have to purchase the refrigerant yourself and hand it to them.

2) If your car's a/c has been open or apart and has air in it then you should do this: a) If you have an R12 system, pull a hard vac on it before charging it; and, b) If you have an R134 system (which will have a usually green color PAG oil in it) which has been open for a long time or exposed to moisture, then you should consider flushing the system, pulling a hard vacuum and replacing the oil. PAG and similar oils used in R134 systems are hygroscopic--meaning that it attracts and absorbs moisture--which will eventually turn the oil into sludge. (A Hard vacuum is >29.9" Hg and stable for at least 15 minutes. This requires a real refrigeration type high vacuum pump. If your system has not been open to the atmosphere and is dry, you can get away with less vacuum.)

3) If you just want to change the type of refrigerant on an otherwise working system, you can switch to an HC type without having to pull a deep or hard or any vacuum at all. You will, of course, need to recover any old R12 in an eviromentally responsible way.

4) --Very important-- It is very tempting not to evacuate an a/c system, but this is stupid. If your system has been open to the atmosphere and/or has air in it, the air will get trapped in the system (usually in the condensor, as air will not condense) and cause a major reduction in the capacity and performance of the a/c. Additionally, it will raise the head pressure and cause the compressor to have to work harder, and load the engine more. The devil really is in the details with a/c.

5) If you switch over to an ES or HC type refrigerant you will notice a pronounced reduction in the amount of loading on the engine caused by the a/c. This is a very welcome and useful benefit on a rotary, as is the cold air.

6) The FD actually has a pretty good a/c system (at least while the car is moving and air is flowing over the condensor). If you're not getting adequate cooling from this system, then there is probably something wrong.

XxMerlinxX

iTrader: (2)

^ I'm glad you spoke up, I couldn't find that PM you sent me a while back. That website that you linked to isn't very clear on what you need to convert over to ES-12a. Can I use Industrial ES-12a, which apparently is colder? Will I need to replace any parts on my current R12 system? What would be some reasons for a shop declining to work with ES-12a?

SportCoupe2

Shops don't like the HC refrigerants because they have no means to capture the stuff. They can't just open the system and let it vent either. Another big reason is because most HC based refrigerants are propane based and are very flammable.

Speed of light

iTrader: (8)

You don't really need to do anything to convert a system to an HC. It is a "drop-in" and it is an EPA legal conversion if you first put the R134a quick connect type adaptor ports over the R12 service ports. I recommend this, because the quick connects are much easier to use.

The standard ES and the I-12a are the same refrigerants, just mixed in different ratios. I-12a has the potential to be colder, but it is really dependent on the refrigerant metering devices and system pressures to achieve this. In our FD application, it will not make any difference, as the evaporator pressure is maintained by the expansion valve and a thermoswitch to prevent ice up. If you are charging from a hard vacuum, putting one can of each in is an ideal solution.

Shops can capture the stuff if they want, in an empty container. I know of a shop that does. It is also acceptable to vent an HC to the atmosphere; HC's are not regulated, so you can vent it as long as you're not releasing a flourocarbon. Many shops don't want to invest in additional equipment and supplies or assume the liability from the perceived risk of using a hydrocarbon. In the real world, R134a is more flammable than an HC, and a lot more toxic when burned (as is R12). HC refrigerants for R12 replacement are a blend of highly purified propane (R290) and iso-butane (R600a). HC's are effective and efficient refrigerants that have a long history of successful use in europe and other places where efficiency is important and where they are not incumbered by big business lobbiest and CYA beauracrats. Many Euro refrigerators use R600a--the same stuff that's in your pocket lighter--because it is the most efficient refrigerant for the application.

It's quite a dichotomy: Convert your car to run on Propane and you are lauded for being "green." Put in your a/c and you are told that you have a rolling bomb--what a f*cking joke. Last time I checked, there was no oxygen in a properly evacuated a/c system--and only 2/3 of a pound of refrigerant. Yea, I'd rather have 20 gallons of fuel in my trunk and choke on phosgene gas! Idiots.

SportCoupe2

Speed of Light: What kind of duct temps are you seeing using a HC blend in your FD? What are the average low side and high side psi's also with an HC blend?

DigDug

I was just looking at the autorefrigerants.com website and noticed this:

I've always drawn the system to a hard vacuum (> 29.5") before charging with R134a, but it looks like they suggest no more than 10 inches before filling with ES-12a. Any thoughts on that?

Otherwise, they state elsewhere that the low-side pressure should be the same, and the high-side around 15PSI lower than it would be with R12. I can't remember the pressure differences from R12 to 134a, but the FSM has them.

I'm going to try this stuff. Last time I accidentally overfilled my system with oil (there's at least twice as much as there should be in there) and I'm not feeling up to disassembling everything to blow it all out, so the 134a isn't cutting it for me because the oil displaced too much. And R134a sucks in this system in anything over 90F.

White94RX

i bought some R12 on e-bay last year. installed R134a fittings so I could hook my guages to it, and shot in two cans of the R12. this year, just a bit had leaked out, so I just shot some R134a on top of the R12. I didn't want to open my last can of 12. Saving it for a rainy day, I guess. that stuff is liquid gold.

XxMerlinxX

iTrader: (2)

I thought you weren't supposed to mix R12 and R134a together?

staticguitar313

iTrader: (2)

more info please, it was 110 on the way home >_< with no A/C charge to cool me!

staticguitar313

iTrader: (2)

more info on the ES-12a stuff!!! ^_^

XxMerlinxX

iTrader: (2)

I'm going to call around to different shops tomorrow to see if anyone will charge my a/c with the ES-12a. If they won't, I guess I'll have to go with Freeze-12, but hopefully I can try the ES-12a because it does seem like it would be the better choice. If I knew how to charge the system, I'd do it myself, but I haven't found a how-to yet.

Speed of light

iTrader: (8)

It's been about 3 years since I converted the FD, but the low side was about the same as R12 (30-->40psi, IIRC) and the high side was noticeably lower--maybe 190-->225psi, which is about a 10 to 15% drop over the R12. Cooling capabilities remained unchanged, the center outlet was in the 38-->45 deg F range once stable and dependent upon ambient, fan speed, RPMs, etc. Loading on the engine dropped substantially. If you bypass the thermo switch on the evaporator, it will freeze up readily if there's any humidity. Note that the refrigerant control in an FD is a real expansion valve.

Converted my brother's Taurus a few years ago, Ford uses a cycling compressor with an orfice tube for refrigerant control. We did not reset the lowside cycle pressure from its R134a setting and Damn if this thing wasn't the freakin' coldest auto a/c I've ever encountered. It might as well have been blowing ice out. Vent's were always in the 30's.

Speed of light

iTrader: (8)

Yea--to answer your first question, when using ES-12, it may appear that the system is undercharged (gauge pressures may be low) when it is not. This is due to the temp/pressure properties of the R600a, which is about 50% of ES-12 blend. If you don't need to pull a hard vac (because the system has not been open) this is not a problem. There are a couple of ways around it: one is to break the hard vac with one can of ES I-12a and then add one can or regular ES-12. The other is to pull your vac, charge one can of ES-12 in, bleed it out to 0 psi or pull a slight vacuum and then add 2 cans of ES-12 to complete the charge.

If you can, try to get some of the excess oil out. An easy way to do this is to just pull the receiver/dryer and blow or dump it out. Excess oil will reduce your evaporator and condensor cooling capacities.

IMO, R134a is a lousy refrigerant over a large range of temperatures and pressures. It can cool, but it is not nearly as efficient as the HC's are or as was R12.

Speed of light

iTrader: (8)

I. You're not. But it will work if you put R134 on top of R12, in an R12 system with mineral oil. Good, I suppose in the event of an emergency. There just better be some R12 in there or else you will kill your compressor due to oil starvation as R134 will not mix with or distribute mineral oil. Chances are that most of the R134 will eventually leak out of an R12 system anyway because it will not seal the much smaller R134 molecule. If it's leaking R12, you can forget about R134. On the other hand, an HC may not leak as much or at all. Fortunately, you can evac this arrangement and recharge with R12 or an HC, no problem.

II. Absolutely do not put R12 on top of R134 in a 134 system. R12 is chlorinated and will attack the synthetic PAO/PAG oils that are in 134 systems. The results will not be good. You can, however, put an HC, e.g., ES-12, on top of 134 with no adverse affect.

III. The final, and perhaps biggest reason that you're not supposed to mix refrigerents involves contamination of the recovery equipment if and when the refrigerant is recovered from your vehicle.

M104-AMG

iTrader: (8)

If I have R134a with PAG oil, and I convert to ES-12, do I need to flush the PAG oil ?

I assume, under General Principle, you should also change out the receiver/dryer and expansion-valve during an ES-12 conversion (from R134a) ?

Please advise/clarify.

Thanks,
:-) neil

Speed of light

iTrader: (8)

NO. That's the beauty of it. All you need to do is remove the R134 and replace it with the regular ES-12. (Assuming your system is working, if not you'll want to fix it first.)

Hydrocarbons designed for R-12 & R134 replacement are "drop-ins" meaning that no changes are required. You get R-12 performance at low cost and no retrofitting to hassle with. The pressure/temperature characteristics are such that no change is required to the metering devices (TXV), plus it is fully compatible with all current materials, oils and your existing dessicant--not to mention your bank account.

If the system has been working well, and you are confident that there is no air in it, then you can install the product over a shallow vacuum (or even no vac, according to ES). I, personally, would pull a hard vacuum on the system, be sure it holds and then charge into that using two 6oz. cans for a FD. You can also add a couple of ounces of an oil charge if the system has been in use for awhile, or any oil has been lost.

Hope this helps.

technomentor

iTrader: (18)

Wish I had read this thread a few days ago. My system needed charging and I foolishly listened to the shop guy that since my system was empty (has a hole in one of the lines) I should just convert to R-134. Cost of conversion $546..said kit was $135 which included a drier and (now I know) the cheap fittings). Then come to find out one of my low side lines had a hole in it and needs to be replaced. The one from my touring parts car was not the right one so am trying to get with Ray Crowe for a new line.

I typically do all of my own work, but have no experience, none of the right tools to work on the AC system, and just have not had the time. So I decided to pay someone and of course now I am regretting it.

By the time I buy the new line ($175 forum price) and pay for shop to install ($110) this will be a very expensive conversion and as Speed of Light has stated, won't even work well.

I'm thinking I'm going to just pick up my car, cut my losses, and get Chuck in Houston to help me out.

Boy do I feel like shi* ...

staticguitar313

iTrader: (2)

so with the ES-12a which oil is need for my r12 system? and whats need to fill the system (both completely empty and topping off)?

danny hahn

What if I had an r12 system, mechanic converted to R134 3 years ago (which has leaked out within a month 2 times over 2 years. would you suggest using es-12 or 12a? any need to flush, dump the oil?

We put dye in the system but his sniffer sensed it was the evaporator, though seeming insignificant dye in the housing, he's looking elsewhere.

Does R134 and R134a use the same fittings? What does the "A" indicate?

M104-AMG

iTrader: (8)

If it's the evaporator, then the water condensation that drains out (there should be a drain) will be tainted with U/V dye. If in doubt, add more R134a with U/V dye and check again.

Regardless, you need to fix that leak first.

:-) neil