Why can't we buy new engines?
02-23-04, 04:53 PM
#1
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Why can't we buy new engines?
Hopefully I don't get flamed for this thread as I am yet by any means an expert in the area, but I imagine it has been covered before, I just can't find the information.
Well anyways, why doesn't anyone manufacture the fd engines new. I mean how hard could it possibly be to produce engines with around 20 or so major parts. It seems that the engine wouldn't cost that much to make just a matter of casting the metal. Is it just a matter of demand and supply? I know they already sell remanufactured engines @ 2,000 which isn't bad at all, but they would be a bit more risky. And for how long would they be available, being that If I remember right you can only rebuild them 2 maybe 3 tops and there done. Is it a patent issue or what?
You can buy a new crate 350 engine for around 2,000, w/ require much more components to create, but obviously there in higher demand.
If I had the money and equipment, well you get the picture.
Well anyways, why doesn't anyone manufacture the fd engines new. I mean how hard could it possibly be to produce engines with around 20 or so major parts. It seems that the engine wouldn't cost that much to make just a matter of casting the metal. Is it just a matter of demand and supply? I know they already sell remanufactured engines @ 2,000 which isn't bad at all, but they would be a bit more risky. And for how long would they be available, being that If I remember right you can only rebuild them 2 maybe 3 tops and there done. Is it a patent issue or what?
You can buy a new crate 350 engine for around 2,000, w/ require much more components to create, but obviously there in higher demand.
If I had the money and equipment, well you get the picture.
02-23-04, 05:12 PM
#5
Rotary Freak
I agree, the cost must be high, and it is probably a supply and demand issue. But doesn't Mazda and some other rebuilders add new parts (housings, rotors) when necessary?
I would guess that there is a limited supply of these new parts on a shelf somewhere and Mazda only makes more of them when a new car that uses this engine is released.
I think I read somewhere on this site that an engine will sometimes be rebuilt using parts from older series cars?
Side issue -- does anyone know if new - lighter weight rotors can be used on older spec engines?
I would guess that there is a limited supply of these new parts on a shelf somewhere and Mazda only makes more of them when a new car that uses this engine is released.
I think I read somewhere on this site that an engine will sometimes be rebuilt using parts from older series cars?
Side issue -- does anyone know if new - lighter weight rotors can be used on older spec engines?
02-23-04, 05:18 PM
#6
No it's not Turbo'd
Oppinion:
I think it's a sign that rotaries, unlike piston engines are less failue prone in the cast parts, unlike heads and valves, cams in a traditional piston engine. Our failures exist in the apex seals and water gaskets, things that are replaceable.
Fact.
Rotaries have many components that can be replaced like a rotor houseing, so if you break an apex seal and bust up a houseing, you replace that houseing provided everything else survived... in a Piston engine, you scratch up a cylynder head bad enough you either machine it out, or replace the whole head...
I think it's a sign that rotaries, unlike piston engines are less failue prone in the cast parts, unlike heads and valves, cams in a traditional piston engine. Our failures exist in the apex seals and water gaskets, things that are replaceable.
Fact.
Rotaries have many components that can be replaced like a rotor houseing, so if you break an apex seal and bust up a houseing, you replace that houseing provided everything else survived... in a Piston engine, you scratch up a cylynder head bad enough you either machine it out, or replace the whole head...
02-23-04, 06:21 PM
#7
Rotary Freak
Originally posted by DCrosby
Oppinion:
I think it's a sign that rotaries, unlike piston engines are less failue prone in the cast parts, unlike heads and valves, cams in a traditional piston engine. Our failures exist in the apex seals and water gaskets, things that are replaceable.
Fact.
Rotaries have many components that can be replaced like a rotor houseing, so if you break an apex seal and bust up a houseing, you replace that houseing provided everything else survived... in a Piston engine, you scratch up a cylynder head bad enough you either machine it out, or replace the whole head...
Oppinion:
I think it's a sign that rotaries, unlike piston engines are less failue prone in the cast parts, unlike heads and valves, cams in a traditional piston engine. Our failures exist in the apex seals and water gaskets, things that are replaceable.
Fact.
Rotaries have many components that can be replaced like a rotor houseing, so if you break an apex seal and bust up a houseing, you replace that houseing provided everything else survived... in a Piston engine, you scratch up a cylynder head bad enough you either machine it out, or replace the whole head...
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02-23-04, 07:58 PM
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i posted a thing about dropping an rx 8 engine into the rx7 you could try that but it might be some extra work with mounts and the transmission and its not turbo but you could maybe do it.
02-23-04, 08:06 PM
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Originally posted by BLKTOPTRVL
I agree with your opinion and I think that once some chemist can create a compound that holds up better than the current seals, or an engineer can mate the surfaces without the rubber (?) seal, then that will be one less weak point for the rotary. They get better all the time.
I agree with your opinion and I think that once some chemist can create a compound that holds up better than the current seals, or an engineer can mate the surfaces without the rubber (?) seal, then that will be one less weak point for the rotary. They get better all the time.
i posted a thing about dropping an rx 8 engine into the rx7 you could try that but it might be some extra work with mounts and the transmission and its not turbo but you could maybe do it.
Installing a Renesis would likely cost similar to building a completely new 13B and would be a complete dog with the stock FD rear end.
02-23-04, 08:30 PM
#10
No it's not Turbo'd
Originally posted by Rx7 Martin
i posted a thing about dropping an rx 8 engine into the rx7 you could try that but it might be some extra work with mounts and the transmission and its not turbo but you could maybe do it.
i posted a thing about dropping an rx 8 engine into the rx7 you could try that but it might be some extra work with mounts and the transmission and its not turbo but you could maybe do it.
02-23-04, 09:54 PM
#11
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These should make you happy. Could this be the cure for the rotary engine?????
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/2_mm_apex_seals.htm
I have read a whole lot about these and aparently they live up to there name. I have heard they lasted under 28psi and detonation, just trying to blow the seals.
Im getting a set.
http://www.rotaryaviation.com/2_mm_apex_seals.htm
I have read a whole lot about these and aparently they live up to there name. I have heard they lasted under 28psi and detonation, just trying to blow the seals.
Im getting a set.
02-23-04, 10:08 PM
#12
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Originally posted by Rx7 Martin
i posted a thing about dropping an rx 8 engine into the rx7 you could try that but it might be some extra work with mounts and the transmission and its not turbo but you could maybe do it.
i posted a thing about dropping an rx 8 engine into the rx7 you could try that but it might be some extra work with mounts and the transmission and its not turbo but you could maybe do it.
02-23-04, 10:18 PM
#13
Rotary Freak
Originally posted by rynberg
The apex seals are metal, not rubber!
The apex seals are metal, not rubber!
Last edited by BLKTOPTRVL; 02-23-04 at 10:42 PM.
02-23-04, 10:44 PM
#14
I don't know if this is true or not, but I heard that there was a licensing issue with selling a brand new rotary engine. The rumor is that Mazda can sell them with a car around them but they can't sell new crate rotary engines.
Water seals sometimes fail from the metal that holds the o-ring in place corroding away. Change your coolant periodically to reduce the corrosion. However, the o-rings also seem to fail for other reasons, so that isn't a complete solution. I lost an o-ring without significant corrosion on my engine. There was evidence of the rotor housing sliding around in the combustion area. It may have been from running a lot of boost, but I sometimes wonder if my tension bolts may have loosened over the years to exacerbate the problem. I never really ran a lot of boost on the engine, and I have since run much more boost with no evidence of the same sliding occuring (yes, the engine is apart again
). Rotary Aviation and other vendors sell Teflon encased silicone o-rings that are marketed as longer-lasting alternatives to the OEM rubber parts. I haven't really heard much about their performance (good or bad), but perhaps that is a good thing -- if they didn't last I think we'd have reports of failure.
-Max
Water seals sometimes fail from the metal that holds the o-ring in place corroding away. Change your coolant periodically to reduce the corrosion. However, the o-rings also seem to fail for other reasons, so that isn't a complete solution. I lost an o-ring without significant corrosion on my engine. There was evidence of the rotor housing sliding around in the combustion area. It may have been from running a lot of boost, but I sometimes wonder if my tension bolts may have loosened over the years to exacerbate the problem. I never really ran a lot of boost on the engine, and I have since run much more boost with no evidence of the same sliding occuring (yes, the engine is apart again
). Rotary Aviation and other vendors sell Teflon encased silicone o-rings that are marketed as longer-lasting alternatives to the OEM rubber parts. I haven't really heard much about their performance (good or bad), but perhaps that is a good thing -- if they didn't last I think we'd have reports of failure.-Max
02-23-04, 10:49 PM
#15
Rotary Freak
Originally posted by maxcooper
I don't know if this is true or not, but I heard that there was a licensing issue with selling a brand new rotary engine. The rumor is that Mazda can sell them with a car around them but they can't sell new crate rotary engines.
Water seals sometimes fail from the metal that holds the o-ring in place corroding away. Change your coolant periodically to reduce the corrosion. However, the o-rings also seem to fail for other reasons, so that isn't a complete solution. I lost an o-ring without significant corrosion on my engine. There was evidence of the rotor housing sliding around in the combustion area. It may have been from running a lot of boost, but I sometimes wonder if my tension bolts may have loosened over the years to exacerbate the problem. I never really ran a lot of boost on the engine, and I have since run much more boost with no evidence of the same sliding occuring (yes, the engine is apart again). Rotary Aviation and other vendors sell Teflon encased silicone o-rings that are marketed as longer-lasting alternatives to the OEM rubber parts. I haven't really heard much about their performance (good or bad), but perhaps that is a good thing -- if they didn't last I think we'd have reports of failure.
-Max
I don't know if this is true or not, but I heard that there was a licensing issue with selling a brand new rotary engine. The rumor is that Mazda can sell them with a car around them but they can't sell new crate rotary engines.
Water seals sometimes fail from the metal that holds the o-ring in place corroding away. Change your coolant periodically to reduce the corrosion. However, the o-rings also seem to fail for other reasons, so that isn't a complete solution. I lost an o-ring without significant corrosion on my engine. There was evidence of the rotor housing sliding around in the combustion area. It may have been from running a lot of boost, but I sometimes wonder if my tension bolts may have loosened over the years to exacerbate the problem. I never really ran a lot of boost on the engine, and I have since run much more boost with no evidence of the same sliding occuring (yes, the engine is apart again
). Rotary Aviation and other vendors sell Teflon encased silicone o-rings that are marketed as longer-lasting alternatives to the OEM rubber parts. I haven't really heard much about their performance (good or bad), but perhaps that is a good thing -- if they didn't last I think we'd have reports of failure.-Max
02-25-04, 02:44 PM
#16
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Originally posted by Mahjik
You can. Mazdatrix makes a new engine with basically all new parts. However, the price is over $7000.
Make that rebuild or reman REAL attractive.
You can. Mazdatrix makes a new engine with basically all new parts. However, the price is over $7000.
Make that rebuild or reman REAL attractive.
02-25-04, 02:47 PM
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Thanks for the help guys, as usual.
Since were on the subject other questions arose, and I did a search too:
and that is what is the normal mileage that you could expect from remanufactured engine, or a rebuilt engine for that matter?
And how many times can you expect to rebuild the fd3s, was I correct in saying 2-3 tops???
Since were on the subject other questions arose, and I did a search too:
and that is what is the normal mileage that you could expect from remanufactured engine, or a rebuilt engine for that matter?
And how many times can you expect to rebuild the fd3s, was I correct in saying 2-3 tops???
02-25-04, 02:55 PM
#18
Racecar - Formula 2000
O-rings (assuming little metal corrosion) usually fail because they harden up and take a set. They are then no longer able to corform to the housings as they expand and contract every time the engine warms and cools. Silicone is much less prone to harden or set, and the Teflon coating will make the tender silicone less subject to tearing and abrasion. Based on this, the R-A o-rings should be much better.
02-25-04, 03:57 PM
#19
Originally posted by lopedl
Tand that is what is the normal mileage that you could expect from remanufactured engine, or a rebuilt engine for that matter?
And how many times can you expect to rebuild the fd3s, was I correct in saying 2-3 tops???
Tand that is what is the normal mileage that you could expect from remanufactured engine, or a rebuilt engine for that matter?
And how many times can you expect to rebuild the fd3s, was I correct in saying 2-3 tops???
02-25-04, 11:46 PM
#21
Hey, where did my $$$ go?
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Its not hard at all to buy a brand new engine. Just walk into any Mazda dealer or call Ray at Malloy Mazda and order all the housings, seals, orings, oil pump and components, eshaft, rotors, ect. The ship them to a good experienced engine builder of choice.
For a quick add up in my head I'd say for all those parts your looking at around $4500-$5000 + labor to put it all together. If I were going to spend that much I'd also have it balanced.
STEPHEN
For a quick add up in my head I'd say for all those parts your looking at around $4500-$5000 + labor to put it all together. If I were going to spend that much I'd also have it balanced.
STEPHEN
02-26-04, 06:20 AM
#24
Senior Member
Here in Oz. When you order a complete NEW 13B engine from Mazda, you no longer get the series-6 (92-95) version. They only supply the series-7 (96-98) version. Its the superseding engine for the series-6
Strange hey.!!!
Strange hey.!!!
