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Old 12-11-01, 11:38 AM   #1
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Need New Engine... Whats the best and whats the cheapest route to go?

Well guys I haven't been on the forum in a while, but just to let you know my car will not turn over and smells like gas, BAD! I'm thinking new engine. What do you think?

I have a friend that works for Mazda and can get me a new engine for $1700. I don't want to get too crazy (street port, etc.), I just want my car to run. Can you get the engine rebuilt cheaper then that? Please advise, thank you.

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Old 12-11-01, 01:31 PM   #2
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Try www.rotaryengine.com
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Old 12-11-01, 02:08 PM   #3
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You get what you pay for. $1700 rebuild is a laugh. I complete set of all new seals for an engine from MazdaTrix costs about $1400 alone.
Relapping the side housings costs at lease $80. Cleaning and balancing the injectors is about $100. Cheap labor is at lease $500.

Already we have $2080 minimum if all your engine core parts are good and reuseable. Then add any other parts needed to protect your new investment. Such as new plugs, water hoses, etc.
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Old 12-11-01, 02:29 PM   #4
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I don't think that is a laugh. I am pretty sure that is around the going price for a Mazda reman.

Now remember that that is only the "block".

I am guessing that does not include removing the engine, or putting the new one in. It also does not include any hoses, belts, spark plugs, etc...that should be replaced at the same time. If you can pull the engine yourself, and put the new one back in, you could do it for $2500-3000.

As far as quality goes, many people are running Mazda reman engines without any problems...

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Old 12-11-01, 06:07 PM   #5
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Saintdog, can't someone in your crew do it??? Well, first has your car been sitting for a couple of days, to me it really sounds like your car is flooded, this always happens to me if I let the car sit more than a few days, I smell alot of gas when I try to start it and it won't start no matter what I do, but when I put new plugs in mine, it fires right up, so I would try putting new plugs in it before you rule the motor is gone...
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Old 12-12-01, 11:19 AM   #6
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My car had been running really rough before it "flooded", still be the plugs?

I am goping over to Autozone right now to get new ones, I'll let you know what happens, thanks.
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Old 12-12-01, 11:39 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Saintdog

I am goping over to Autozone right now to get new ones, I'll let you know what happens, thanks.
Thats probably your problem, AutoZones down here don't carry **** for plugs.
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Old 12-12-01, 12:31 PM   #8
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A Mazda reman cost over $2000 and they reuse any parts that are considered good. That applies even to apex and side seals. Yea they will work OK but do not come close to a good rebuild when it comes to engine life and reliable power.

One of my customers has been in the process of suing Mazda over his $2000+ rebuild he bought as a core to build a ported engine from.
The rotor housings had water corrossion up to the seals and the apex corner seal surface was worn down below Mazda's writtten standards.
The engine was a piece of ****. It has been about 6 months and it has not been resolved yet.

It amazes me how many people try owning a FD on a Geo Metro budget.

A perfect example of the "NOW" generation.
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Old 12-12-01, 12:44 PM   #9
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I had heard that the Mazda remans went through a period where they had bad quality. It was when the rebuild center was moved from Cali to Florida. They are all now done in Florida.

Also, you can get a Mazda reman from Malloy Mazda for $1900. I know, I talked to the parts manager there. If you want, I can give you the number.

I can't speak for their quality, but I do know there are many posts about this same topic on the board...so whoever wants to know can search.

About your customer, I know there are exceptions to the rule in every case. However, I would guess that bad Mazda remans are the exception...not the rule.

Also, another option, if people don't feel comfortable with a Mazda reman, is Pineapple racing. www.pineappleracing.com.

I am sure many forum members will vouch for the owner's integrity and high standards. Rob Golden is his name, and I believe his price is around $1900 for a rebuilt engine too...(with good core).

Later,
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Old 12-12-01, 01:06 PM   #10
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As I had mentioned, the price for a complete rebuild seal kit is over $1400. One way they keep prices down is reusing some of these parts.


The apex and side seals of the rotor are equivalent to the rings on a piston. Piston engine rebuilders would never reuse these if in the commercial business. Relapping the side housings is like reboring the piston bores for the new rings to fit perfectly. Mazda does not do this unless it is beyond the max wear limits. Then there are the rotor housings which are also equivalent to the piston bores. Thus most piston engine are rebuilt to a higher standard than Mazda does. This all affects compression, power, oil usage, and engine life.

Lets talk about bearings. Ever hear of a piston engine rebuild using the old bearings. NO! But most rotary rebuilds do not use new bearings unless the old ones again are out of max tolerances.

All of this reusage by Mazda and other rotary engine rebuilders is to keep cost down. You get their 1 year warranty. What a laugh. Talk to people who got engines from Hayes and had problems.

We can conclude that most RX7 rebuilt engines are built to lower standards than our street competition. Maybe this is why so many RX7 engines blow when being tuned.
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Old 12-12-01, 01:09 PM   #11
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I think the Mazda remans that might've had any problems in the past have been gone over quite differently lately. I've got a friend who works at the dealer and has seen a few that seemed pretty damn like new.
Another friend's 94 is running one too from a warranty job and it's been perfect and runs really strong.
I know it's taboo to have the dealer even touch an RX but if they install it it carries a warranty as well, and I'm sure if thats the case they would still validate that if another competant shop does the install.
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Old 12-12-01, 01:10 PM   #12
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motor alternative

there's also used engine from japan, 40,000miles or less for 1,450.00 I have no experience with them, you can find them at www.liberousa.com

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Old 12-12-01, 01:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by cewrx7r1
As I had mentioned, the price for a complete rebuild seal kit is over $1400. One way they keep prices down is reusing some of these parts.


The apex and side seals of the rotor are equivalent to the rings on a piston. Piston engine rebuilders would never reuse these if in the commercial business. Relapping the side housings is like reboring the piston bores for the new rings to fit perfectly. Mazda does not do this unless it is beyond the max wear limits. Thus most piston engine are rebuilt to a higher standard than Mazda does. This all affects compression, power, oil usage, and engine life.

Lets talk about bearings. Ever hear of a piston engine rebuild using the old bearings. NO! But most rotary rebuilds do not use new bearings unless the old ones again are out of max tolerances.

All of this reusage by Mazda and other rotary engine rebuilders is to keep cost down. You get their 1 year warranty. What a laugh. Talk to people who got engines from Hayes and had problems.

We can conclude that most RX7 rebuilt engines are built to lower standards than our street competition. Maybe this is why so many RX7 engines blow when being tuned.
Chuck -

What is your point?

All I was doing was giving this guy some suggestions on price and options for buying rebuilt engines. Are you suggesting he buy a NEW crate engine or something?

Also, I don't know how you know all this stuff, or if any of it is backed up with FACTS, but I wouldn't be making statements about the quality of people's work with out FACTS.

Do you know for a fact what Haynes and Mazda replace and do not replace?

Also, if they don't replace these components, did you ever think that maybe they don't need to be replaced? The reason there are so many blown rotaries is because people don't understand them, and don't take care of them.

I for one, will be purchasing a rebuilt engine from Pineapple racing, and I will check out everything before I do so, but I trust them 100%.

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Old 12-12-01, 03:15 PM   #14
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I figure spending a little under $20.00 and cancelling out that it could be just plugs is better than just taking a stab and insisting it is the motor gone. It could still be the motor gone but if you get a new motor or a rebuild you will want new plugs anyways, and 20.00 is alot less than 2000.00, so let me know how you make out..
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Old 12-12-01, 06:07 PM   #15
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I haven't heard of a bad reman coming out of Mazda in awhile now, although what Chuck says is correct, they check for tolerances. However, the proof is in the compession, and just today I saw a reman with 30k on it that had 8.4-8.5 all around, can't argue with that. Obviously there will be some lemons, but like I said, haven't read about one in awhile, and I've seen many without problems. Another alternative is www.mazdatrix.com They have different levels of rebuilds, so you can decide how "new" you want the engine to be. The most basic "A" level is about $2000, but it does include all new seals and gaskets. They're in Long Beach area so its not too far. I've personally had a lot of service done there and they know their stuff.
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Old 12-12-01, 08:35 PM   #16
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cewrx7r1

A Mazda reman cost over $2000 and they reuse any parts that are considered good. That applies even to apex and side seals. Yea they will work OK but do not come close to a good rebuild when it comes to engine life and reliable power.

One of my customers has been in the process of suing Mazda over his $2000+ rebuild he bought as a core to build a ported engine from.
The rotor housings had water corrossion up to the seals and the apex corner seal surface was worn down below Mazda's writtten standards.
The engine was a piece of ****. It has been about 6 months and it has not been resolved yet.

It amazes me how many people try owning a FD on a Geo Metro budget.

A perfect example of the "NOW" generation.

That is one of the most pompass things that I have ever heard someone say. I don't know why you think somone who is trying to get the most out of their investment would be on a tight *** or what you call the "Now Generation" You should think about what you say before you say it. I am sure he could afford a new engine, but why just throw the money at the problem and not even find the best way to get your moneys worth? I guess that is just "Your Generation" Not trying to get flamed here but I think most might agree, or maybe it is just me.
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Old 12-12-01, 10:01 PM   #17
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DHALL,

I totally agree with you and was thinking the exact same thing when I read that. I have always thought that being frugal with your money was a good thing and that you should try and get the most out of your money. Who wouldnt want to get the cheapest and best option. If you find out that all the cheap options suck then at least you tried.
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Old 12-12-01, 11:30 PM   #18
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Sorry to hear that you are in need of an engine rebuild. I've been fortunate that I haven't been there yet. I'd suggest that as part of your research on options and costs that you contact Atkins Rotary. My understanding is they have a long history with rebuilding rotaries and are very reputable. I realize that price is a major concern for you and it would be for me also. Here is a link to the Atkins website price list that you might find useful as a "reference" price list.

http://www.atkinsrotary.com/engine.htm

The Atkins web site also has an "Engine Q&A" section with lots of information including customer questions and comments that you might find useful.

Good luck and take care.

Last edited by Jonesboro; 12-12-01 at 11:37 PM.
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Old 12-12-01, 11:44 PM   #19
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I have to take Chuck's side here. His reply might sound a bit offensive to some, but everything he mentioned is 100% correct. FYI I do have "proof" and I reply only when I know the facts, so don't even bother replying if you're gonna pull that "FACTS" sh*t. How many of you have hard FACTS that say remans are good, and last 60-70K miles, and that putting new parts in an engine is a waste of money? No one! Know why? Cause it's not true. As for the reman engines being the "exception" and not the rule, I cannot argue this since I've only purchased one reman, but I guess mine was part of the "exception". It was a pile of junk! I was lucky enough to know the parts manager very well and send it back to him "right away". What a waste of time! I won't even bother going into the details since I already did in a previous post, but all I can say is if you want to "throw away" $2k then go ahead and but yourself a nice mazda reman. If you'd ever seen what they look like on the "inside" then you'd know what I'm talking about. As Chuck mentioned, just the minimum parts (gaskets, seals, etc.) will cost you over $1400 alone. How can they be offering you such an excellent product for a mere $500 more? If you think that you can reuse most of the other parts in a rotary, then think again, cause 9 out of 10 times your rotor housings are worn, and sides might be warped, and the bearings might be shot, and so on. So for those of you that think you're getting a "deal", you're right, more than what you bargained for. For those that want to invest their money wisely than get a rebuild from a "reputable" shop. There is no half-assing allowed on a rotary. If you want a reliable engine that has a normal life expectancy, then you "have to" replace most of these pieces in there. I don't believe in the crap about "within spec", cause most the people saying this crap don't even know what specs are. I'm glad I was able to get rid of that junk. To each his own!
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Old 12-13-01, 12:16 AM   #20
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Man I wasn't doubting anyone about what is better or not. We have all had our own personal experiences, but I just thought the coment about "NOW GENERATION" was un-called for. I am sure that a reman is not the best way to go, but if it is all you are looking for performance wise and the price is right then why not? It also has a lot to do with where you have it done. I am lucky enough to live by KDROTARY in PA. But man do whatever you gotta do, and hey if you save money on a reman motor, that just means more money for mods! Good luck man.
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Old 12-13-01, 12:46 AM   #21
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I don't know where this idea came from about the gaskets and seals costing over $1,400?! You must be buying retail from the dealer. Professional builders buy at as much as 30% below retail on non-race orders, and at cost on race engines. I don't recall off hand what I paid on my last race engine for the gasket set, but it was not much more than $100. The seals were Carbon, which are the cheapest, and we didn't do the side seals, though all the springs were replaced, as well as the oil control o-rings (which were surprisingly costly). Total cost of the rebuild in parts was about $400. These were MazdaComp prices, of course. (You can read about it in the February issue of Grassroots Motorsports, which is already on the way to mailboxes now). Doing it 'right' (all new seals and springs, save housings) is around $1,000 for ordinary folk like us. Rob Golden at Pineapple Racing gets it for less, which I know for a fact (he's a friend). The reason his rebuilds are relatively affordable are that he makes no profit on the parts -- he estimates for his labor only, at $60 per hour. Plus, most of his customers don't buy the basic package. They want oil mods, porting, and so forth. One individual recently ordered a whole new engine -- new side and rotor housings, new rotors, all new seals of course, new tension bolts, even a new flywheel nut. And wanted it ported and got the oil mods too. This was decidedly expensive. What's my point? You can get a decent rebuild for not much more than doing it yourself, as professionals get discounts that we do not. They can also do it much faster and at a higher quality than most amatures/enthusiasts could do it. The main problem, unfortunately, is in finding honest rotary rebuilders who actually know what they are doing AND are not too lazy to do it. I've watched Rob pull apart motors from almost every vendor currently in the business and was startled to see rather low quality in many things (particularly bad porting). Regardless, at least I know one good rebuilder and that's all I need! Obviously, I'm biased but I can't help but gloat over my good fortune to live in the same city as Pineapple Racing and to have become friends with Rob. At least people living elsewhere can ship their motors to him ($94 one-way from Chicago, for example). Sorry for making this sound like a Pineapple Racing commercial, but it was more to illustrate my point.

Pineapple Racing
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Old 12-13-01, 01:59 AM   #22
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Another fact to consider:

I have had someone take a Mazda reman to a KD Rotary for mods. When the engine was taken apart, it was found that ALL the seals were replaced with NEW, NEW rotor housings, and NEW bearings. The rotors and shafts were immaculate.

You also have to remember that what Mazda charges even the wholesale people/professional racers is probably still 2-5 times the cost of manufacture and shipping of the parts. Parts are even cheaper for the company. I have heard rumors that the engines basically have the side housings as the only original part from an old engine, if that.

The factory reman also includes the following as NEW parts: water pump, oil pump and chain, front cover, thermostat, thermosensor, flywheel, and an oilpan that has been sealed and bolted on the block. I paid the 2k for mine, and I felt that having peripheral support equipment new was more than worth the 2k.

I also know several people that have the Mazda engines (myself included.) A lot have pushed the 50k mark already with no problems. A few race these engines, to include a couple of people in the SevenStock, as well as daily drivers. So I have good faith that my engine will last me a while.
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Old 12-13-01, 02:15 AM   #23
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I've heard some good things about the Mazda remans too, but also some not-so-good things. More good than bad, on balance. While they have been known to build some almost new engines, you cannot count on it. The problem with Mazda remanuactured engines is that they are built to Mazda specs, which are rediculous. Bearing clearances, seal wear, chrome flake, and so forth are beyond what a reputable builder would consider using. On the other hand, they are neither dishonest nor unskilled; they just aim lower. The legendary 'good' (new rotor housings, etc.) engines seem to come in spurts, as if perhaps they ran low on cores and had to use the new parts. Or maybe the guy on the assembly line has a particularly good or bad day....
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Old 12-13-01, 07:29 AM   #24
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I have to take Chuck's side here. His reply might sound a bit offensive to some, but everything he mentioned is 100% correct. FYI I do have "proof" and I reply only when I know the facts, so don't even bother replying if you're gonna pull that "FACTS" sh*t.
Hey Mach2...why don't you take it down a level? All I was saying is that Chuck needs to tell us about facts, not a bunch of crap he has "heard". Back your statements up with facts. That is all I was saying. You know how message boards are...people make statements all the time with nothing to back them up.

I am sorry to hear about your bad experience with a Mazda reman. You have educated me a bit on some of the bad quality they have produced.

If you read my previous post you will see that I was just trying to give the thread starter some options. I personally will be buying my engine from Rob at Pineapple racing. I have heard nothing but good things about his work and integrity.

Also, the $1400 number you keep throwing around is bogus, like Blake said. Rebuilders don't pay even close to retail for their parts...

Later,
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Old 12-13-01, 07:31 AM   #25
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DHALL,

Just for you.

The "NOW" generation is a very accurate discription of many of the young owners on this forum and the list. You all want it now even if you are not mature enough, lack experience, still in school, and have lower incomes.

You all want the BEST and CHEAPEST answer to everything. Many do not even own or study the manuals for their cars. They ask questions which the manual can so easily answer.

I can go on, but will stop here. If this offends you, go cry to your mother!
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Old 12-13-01, 07:31 AM
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