ArmitageGVR4

iTrader: (13)

Prior to installing a set of brand new aftermarket toe links, my rear suspension was quiet. Now it clunks when shifting weight during a stop or start. I hear this is a common problem with worn out toe link bushings, but these are brand new and never used. Everything is tight, there is no slop, I double and triple checked the torque on the fasteners. I can't feel any play in the links or the bearing ends. I replaced my pillow ***** last year so they're not the cause. The clunking noise started immediately after installing the new toe links. It happens on both sides of the car. Ideas?

CantGoStraight

Something has been over looked, while the bolt may be tight and to torque spec's it may not have the part full captured. Go back and check again moving the parts in every conceivable direction. Make sure you lock down the jam nuts once you have the lengths set properly, leaving these loose can st your car up for some interesting handling surprises under acceleration and deceleration in a turn, in some cases will affect the rearend on a straight launch, get them right.

ArmitageGVR4

iTrader: (13)

I locked down the jam nuts prior to installation on the car after matching the length of the arms to the factory pieces on the workbench. I'm not clear and what you mean by "while the bolt may be tight and to torque spec's it may not have the part full captured." Should I have done something special when installing the retaining bolts (like loaded the suspension before torquing them down)? Thanks for the help!

DaveW

I think what CantGoStraight means is that maybe the flanges are not tight enough against the rod-end ball spacers. If they are loose here they will clunk. Also, were the rod-end ***** tight in their races? That could cause the same symptoms.

Dave

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

The units you bought are made with low quality cheap rod end bearings.
Both the race and ball are metal without any preload. This little bit of slack causes the noise you are mentioning when metal hits metal. One of my customers also bought these cheap units.

A good quality bearing like the ones made by Durbal have a self lubricating pre-loaded race that will not make noise. I use them for my sway bar links.

* * * *

From the Durbal site for heavy load low speed rod end bearings:

The ball slides on a composite bearing shell consisting of a glass fiber-filled nylon/teflon component. This design ensures an absolutely maintenance-free rod end. DURBAL heavy-duty plain bearing rod ends have a slight initial stress and virtually no clearance. The composite material used has a favorable secondary advantage in that it absorbs any foreign particles and embeds them so that no damage can occur. The joint ***** of DURBAL heavy-duty rod ends with integrated spherical plain bearings are hard chrome plated. This reliable corrosion protection ensures that the function of the rod end will not be affected by a corroded ball surface under humid operating conditions.

* * * *
The kit sold years ago by Mostly Mazda has similar high quality bearings and thus were quiet.

ArmitageGVR4

iTrader: (13)

Well the spacers were a tight fit into the flanges to start with, I had to tap them in with a dead-blow hammer just to get them into place. I tightened the bolts to factory specs so there should be no issues with them not being tight enough.

As far as the rod-ends, I just assumed since they are brand new there shouldn't be a problem with them. Once installed I gave em a good tug in all directions and felt no play but of course the forces acting on the car in motion are a lot greater than what I can simulate just by pulling on it... The rod ends are this type (actual photo):

CantGoStraight

What information I don't have about this install is :
1) are the bolts being used the original (stock ones) if your using the bolts that came with the kit are they shoulder bolts (run the possibility of tighting up before the components are compressed properly.
2.) Do the new arms require spacers to go on each side of the ball end and fill in the space where the stock ones fit, are they in correctly, how sloppy are the new rod ends on the trailing arm and what make up are they, metal/metal or metal/composite.
3.) after installing these is it possible it brought to the surface another issue with your suspension. Granted you can't load the suspenssion as hard as the car but you should be able to find the loose item causing the clunk.

ArmitageGVR4

iTrader: (13)

How can you make that claim when you don't even know what product I have? It's not some cheapo eBay knockoff.

ArmitageGVR4

iTrader: (13)

Using factory bolts.

Spacers are required. They are a tight fit in every flange (see above). They are aluminum.

It's possible, but I don't know what else would cause this kind of noise since I replaced the pillow ***** that used to clunk. The problem is directly related to the installation of the toe links since they and they alone were installed and the clunking started on both sides of the car the same day.

edit: I should mention that several days later I installed new trailing arms as well, but the problem had already manifest itself by then.

DaveW

He may not know what you have, and he could be completely wrong, but a loose rod-end ball fit might be the cause. Rod ends come with a wide variation in tightness, depending on manufacturer and specification. Some are so tight you need a lever to move them, and others are barely preloaded at all. The barely preloaded ones can cause clunking, especially after a few miles when they have become still looser after some use.

Dave

CantGoStraight

The only thing I would suggest is remove one of the newly installed toe links, reinstall the proper stock one for the one removed. Then if you have a vice place the new toe link in it with all the hard ware trapped (duplicate installation) then see if there is slop in the rod end and if you can feel the clunk (the noise itself is greatly echo'd through our suspension when it's metal to metal) and it doesn't take much movement to make it sound like a lot. I figue by doing one you may be able to confirm the item in question (determined by direction the noise comes from) as well as severity (is the noise half as loud as with both installed.) I've found when people replace the trailing arms they will typically find it's acttually the ball ends located in the cross over piece unless the rubber bushing is worn enough to show metal to metal contact. I was truly amazed at the amount of noise that comes from worn trailing arm ball ends, (sounds like the rearend is comming out from under it. Hope I've been of some help. Jack

ArmitageGVR4

iTrader: (13)

Thanks for the advice guys. I guess I'll have to spent yet another evening putting my car back to stock

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

From much experience using rod end bearings since the 70s.

A few years ago I bought a FD engine torque brace that also uses a polyurethane
shock reducer and is was also very noisey at idle due to the cheaper bearings ratling.

After replacing them with Durbals, the problem went away.

Have you checked the preload on your breaings?

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

[QUOTE=ArmitageGVR4]Thanks for the advice guys. I guess I'll have to spent yet another evening putting my car back to stock [/QUOTE

We-all are waiting for the results or cause of your clunking!

DamonB

For rod ends that don't make noise look for anything that is "Teflon lined".

ArmitageGVR4

iTrader: (13)

These rod ends are teflon lined. I am now suspecting it's not the rod ends at all but perhaps the aluminum spacers causing the noise as they are machined well but the fitment into the rod ends isn't exactly "press-fit" if you know what i mean. I may try to eliminate any binding/movement by applying some RTV to the surface of the spacers before inserting them into the rod ends... I may also try and come up with a different type of design for the spacers (a solid piece that passes through the entire rod end as opposed to two half pieces) if the RTV idea doesn't pan out.

Something I did notice... When the car has been sitting overnight and is cold, the clunking noises from the rear are not present. Only after driving for a few miles do they begin to manifest. Once returning to the garage after a drive, I can press or pull the body of the car from the rear fender and cause the suspension to clunk. I cannot do this when the car is cold/has been sitting. I have no theories for why this is happening at present.

I have some higher strength rod ends to try courtesy of the vendor of said parts. I will experiment with a number of things and see what works best. However I'm a little frustrated because it feels like, despite very helpful and timely support from the vendor, that I am beta-testing their product on my own nickel. I have other things I'd really rather be doing.

Thanks for the help guys, keep the ideas coming! I'll let you know if anything above works, but right now I've been focusing on track prepping the car for this weekend and haven't had time to play around with things. I'm pretty confident that although there is some play in these bearings causing the noise, it's still less than that of my stock 80k mile rubber pieces. Despite the annoying noises, the car feels very firm and composed back there.

DaveW

The fit of the spacer into the rod end, etc., is not as important as being able to tighten the joints enough so that friction keeps them from "working" back and forth. No fit (unless it is a press fit) can be tight enough to eliminate all play. The key to a tight, reliable, noise-free joint is having the clamping force high enough so that the friction between the clamped surfaces keeps them from "working."

In that regard, I ALWAYS use hardened steel spacers in such locations, especially on my race cars, because, in my experience, aluminum spacers, washers, etc., almost always collapse or crush before they can be sufficiently tightened.

Dave

DaveW

I just had another thought (yeah - that's probably dangerous...).

Do the spacers that fit into the rod ends by any chance touch each other inside the rod-end ball? If so, a) they could not be preloaded properly, and b) they would expand as they warmed up and cause them to not fit tightly against the sides of the ball. This would definitely cause clunking.

Dave

ArmitageGVR4

iTrader: (13)

Not dangerous, that's a good thought I was thinking the same thing. When I installed them it seemed that the spacers were not deep enough to contact with each other but I'm going to remove them tonight and make sure. By the way, can you recommend a supplier for the steel spacers you use, or are they custom?

DaveW

Mine were all custom-made. However, spacers are one of the easiest things to make on a lathe, so if you make a sketch with dimensions, any machine shop could make them relatively inexpensively.

Dave

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

Or you could buy washers from a place like mcmaster-carr. They have spacers, washers, etc and if you look carefully you can have almost anything.

Dave