View Poll Results: How many 3+ Rotor FDs in World
Voters: 20. You may not vote on this poll
How Many 3,4 or 5 rotor FD's in the World???
03-09-17, 04:09 PM
#1
How Many 3,4 or 5 rotor FD's in the World???
A new good FD friend and I were discussing 3 rotor FDs the other day, and were far apart in our opinions of how many exist.
Not only would I like to know how many exist, but I'd like to break it out per state for US and per country otherwise.
My guess is that there could be more than we imagine. My guess is 50-100 in the US. I know Pettit made the Banzai cars, would be nice to know how many they made for starters. I would guess the largest amount will be in Japan and Australia, all of Europe next, U.S. and Puerto Rico following. I also imagine that most of the owners of these cars would be on the forum.
We should list the car year, car location and owner at least by first name and whether it is a 3, 4 or more rotor and if NA or Turbo.
Cheers!
Not only would I like to know how many exist, but I'd like to break it out per state for US and per country otherwise.
My guess is that there could be more than we imagine. My guess is 50-100 in the US. I know Pettit made the Banzai cars, would be nice to know how many they made for starters. I would guess the largest amount will be in Japan and Australia, all of Europe next, U.S. and Puerto Rico following. I also imagine that most of the owners of these cars would be on the forum.
We should list the car year, car location and owner at least by first name and whether it is a 3, 4 or more rotor and if NA or Turbo.
Cheers!
Last edited by Snook; 03-10-17 at 10:15 AM.
03-09-17, 04:22 PM
#2
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Totally a guess.
I have zero info here.
Instinct says no more than 250. Remember there are less than 4k total registered in the US.
I'd guess of the 4k 500 are v8s and at least that makes some sense LOL
I have zero info here.
Instinct says no more than 250. Remember there are less than 4k total registered in the US.
I'd guess of the 4k 500 are v8s and at least that makes some sense LOL
03-09-17, 04:44 PM
#6
Found this on a forum for FDs. No idea how accurate.
Series-6 RX-7
1992 = 26,899
1993 = 6,801
1994 = 5,962
1995 = 5,202
Series-7 RX-7
1996 = 4,762
1997 = 3,556
1998 = 1,423
Series-8 RX-7
1999 = 4,151
2000 = 2,611
2001 = 2,589
2002 = 3,903
Total: 67,859
Seems about right but never knew annual figures were so low before being a car exclusive to Japan.
Series-6 RX-7
1992 = 26,899
1993 = 6,801
1994 = 5,962
1995 = 5,202
Series-7 RX-7
1996 = 4,762
1997 = 3,556
1998 = 1,423
Series-8 RX-7
1999 = 4,151
2000 = 2,611
2001 = 2,589
2002 = 3,903
Total: 67,859
Seems about right but never knew annual figures were so low before being a car exclusive to Japan.
Last edited by cib24; 03-09-17 at 05:01 PM.
03-09-17, 04:59 PM
#7
On Cosmos, Wikipedia claims:
"The Cosmo was manufactured from February 1990 until September 1995, and gathered a total of 8,875 sales. A split of 60/40 sales between 13B-REW and 20B-REW variants..."
5,325 13B-REW
3,550 20B-REW
Interestingly, the UK shows about 555 FDs registered (some more not running so won't show up) although that counts a few FCs and FBs (totalling maybe 20-30). However, only 124 were sold through the official UK Mazda dealer network from 1992-1995.
Anyway, with only 3,550 Cosmos 20Bs built according to Wikipedia and quite a few of those engines probably junked at some point, I would guess there are half that amount of actual original blocks left and only 100-200 globally that are actually installed in some car and considered running.
"The Cosmo was manufactured from February 1990 until September 1995, and gathered a total of 8,875 sales. A split of 60/40 sales between 13B-REW and 20B-REW variants..."
5,325 13B-REW
3,550 20B-REW
Interestingly, the UK shows about 555 FDs registered (some more not running so won't show up) although that counts a few FCs and FBs (totalling maybe 20-30). However, only 124 were sold through the official UK Mazda dealer network from 1992-1995.
Anyway, with only 3,550 Cosmos 20Bs built according to Wikipedia and quite a few of those engines probably junked at some point, I would guess there are half that amount of actual original blocks left and only 100-200 globally that are actually installed in some car and considered running.
Last edited by cib24; 03-09-17 at 05:02 PM.
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03-09-17, 05:08 PM
#9
Well, I'm sure for a time you could buy a block from Mazda but realistically how many would have been bought that way. 100?
As for taking care of them, yeah right. People go 20B and aim for north of 600hp. Those motors aren't going to last and be reusable many times if at all.
I'm sure there are a few Frankenstein 13B to 20B hybrid blocks out there but probably not more than 10s of them, not 100s.
Remember, it doesn't make any financial sense to go 20B as it costs north of $35k to do it properly. You will never get that money back and most people don't have that to blow straight cash, so they don't do it. You trade up and get a R35 or something that you can finance and be faster and more reliable with a warranty.
Not everyone, but you get my point.
As for taking care of them, yeah right. People go 20B and aim for north of 600hp. Those motors aren't going to last and be reusable many times if at all.
I'm sure there are a few Frankenstein 13B to 20B hybrid blocks out there but probably not more than 10s of them, not 100s.
Remember, it doesn't make any financial sense to go 20B as it costs north of $35k to do it properly. You will never get that money back and most people don't have that to blow straight cash, so they don't do it. You trade up and get a R35 or something that you can finance and be faster and more reliable with a warranty.
Not everyone, but you get my point.
Last edited by cib24; 03-09-17 at 05:12 PM.
03-09-17, 06:40 PM
#11
Wow so there are more than double the amount of FDs in the world as there are Vipers. They both started in 92, and Viper has run for an additional 15 years longer than FD also, well with shut downs over a dozen years longer production time. Wild and off topic.
03-10-17, 02:28 PM
#16
that's me, but it's not an uncommon occurrence and makes me wonder how much business i may have actually lost.
as for 3 and 4 rotors, they are a little less likely to sit for a decade in a garage. someone who can afford to buy those engines can afford to finish the car so it may be a little less common than most other FD projects that i've seen span for 10+ years.
as for 3 and 4 rotors, they are a little less likely to sit for a decade in a garage. someone who can afford to buy those engines can afford to finish the car so it may be a little less common than most other FD projects that i've seen span for 10+ years.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 03-10-17 at 02:30 PM.
03-10-17, 02:36 PM
#17
Well don't sweat it, probably losing only customers that can't read like myself.
That's a very good point. And I dont know why people let RX-7s sit for so long. Not sure what all the big plans are that they cant even get started. It's so simple, honestly it's one of the easiest cars I've ever worked on, easier than piston engines IMO.
I always thought of a 3 rotor as untouchable and now you are seeing so many out there. To me there's no better sports car out there than a FD with a 20B, even on the stock sequential twins. I'd probably put bnrs on mine and run it sequentially without even rebuilding or porting the motor until it needed it. 450rwhp on pump gas sequential and the new tq would make it the craziest car on earth
That's a very good point. And I dont know why people let RX-7s sit for so long. Not sure what all the big plans are that they cant even get started. It's so simple, honestly it's one of the easiest cars I've ever worked on, easier than piston engines IMO.
I always thought of a 3 rotor as untouchable and now you are seeing so many out there. To me there's no better sports car out there than a FD with a 20B, even on the stock sequential twins. I'd probably put bnrs on mine and run it sequentially without even rebuilding or porting the motor until it needed it. 450rwhp on pump gas sequential and the new tq would make it the craziest car on earth
Last edited by Snook; 03-10-17 at 02:38 PM.
03-10-17, 02:42 PM
#18
for some it is ADHD, they have to have the biggest and best turbo, by the time they have a kit built then the turbo is not the biggest and best anymore. same with engine management, same with intake manifolds, turbo manifolds, wastegates, injectors, etc. then the body needs paint, so it all has to come back out, spend 6 months at the body shop, all put back in then try to find one of the few tuners for these cars and spend a couple more years waiting for them, or spend a couple grand on them for a special trip for your one car.
some people just don't know how to get a grip on their goal and just keep it where it is. do one chunk at a time.
some people just don't know how to get a grip on their goal and just keep it where it is. do one chunk at a time.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 03-10-17 at 02:44 PM.
03-10-17, 02:49 PM
#19
True I think it also comes from pride and passion about cars, trying to build the best possible car out there, it's like an art form. I've done the same but after so many years and having so many I know what I want and how to do it easily. I haven't driven a porsche, I want to drive the '14 911 turbo s and compare to a modded FD. But then again that looks like every other porsche, may as well be a 5k boxter with some nice rims on the outside.
03-14-17, 07:28 AM
#22
Thank you Gordon! Will you be at deals gap this year? Funny after your posts more people voted for the under 100 lol.
I believe there are a lot more than we think. Once we get the Pettit number back that will be another big group of them
I believe there are a lot more than we think. Once we get the Pettit number back that will be another big group of them
03-14-17, 07:36 AM
#23
Personally, I think Gordon's numbers are about right and add another 100-150 3 rotors to account for the running cars and projects in Australia, New Zealand, Japan, the UK and other markets.
I doubt that there will be more as the swap itself makes no financial sense and finances is what keeps people from doing something this radical if they aren't already well off, being sponsored and/or don't care about losing money on the car when it is time to sell. If these cars were worth $60,000+ you would see a few more people do the swap, but as is it doesn't make sense from a financial perspective when you can only sell the car for $20,000-30,000 when you want to move on. It's much cheaper to buy a GTR and have fun with that.
I doubt that there will be more as the swap itself makes no financial sense and finances is what keeps people from doing something this radical if they aren't already well off, being sponsored and/or don't care about losing money on the car when it is time to sell. If these cars were worth $60,000+ you would see a few more people do the swap, but as is it doesn't make sense from a financial perspective when you can only sell the car for $20,000-30,000 when you want to move on. It's much cheaper to buy a GTR and have fun with that.
03-14-17, 07:41 AM
#24
100-150 is a pretty huge range. I'm looking to get much more specific than that.
Plus how are you coming up with that guess? The US has 150 and the rest of the entire world has 100 or 150?
That doesn't make sense as Japan has the most FDs and they are very into tuning, oh and they have the cosmos to take the engines from.
Lastly I also disagree wholeheartedly about your estimate on value of a proper 3 rotor car. Check the for sale section one was for sale recently for 65k and sold. I can't verify what it sold for but it sold quickly so I doubt much less than asking was accepted.
That's my view, educated guesses are ok but evidence is what I'm after in this thread.
Plus how are you coming up with that guess? The US has 150 and the rest of the entire world has 100 or 150?
That doesn't make sense as Japan has the most FDs and they are very into tuning, oh and they have the cosmos to take the engines from.
Lastly I also disagree wholeheartedly about your estimate on value of a proper 3 rotor car. Check the for sale section one was for sale recently for 65k and sold. I can't verify what it sold for but it sold quickly so I doubt much less than asking was accepted.
That's my view, educated guesses are ok but evidence is what I'm after in this thread.
03-14-17, 07:57 AM
#25
First, you said FDs, not 3 rotors in general. Most 3 rotors in Australia and New Zealand at least are put into RX-2, RX-3, RX-4 drag cars, not FDs.
It's hard to say for sure what the number is but you can be pretty confident that actual running and working cars that aren't on jack stands or in several pieces will only be a few hundred globally.
Australia, Japan, etc. have to pass emissions and thus most people don't go too crazy with modifications in an attempt to build a 600-1000 hp monster.
In my opinion the US is also likely to have the most working 3 rotors given the wealth of the country compared to everywhere else. Also, values of cars vary greatly depending on the market. There was a working 3 rotor in the UK sold last year for about £12,000. Big turbo, aftermarket apex seals, everything done and the body and paint was actually above average.
Stock FDs, particularly 99-specs and Spirit Rs command £15,000-25,000 nowadays. Older 92-98s command about £6,000-14,000 depending on condition. At least in Europe from what I have seen, aftermarket cars don't sell for premiums that are going to cover the financial outlay required to get a 3 rotor up and running and working in a car that isn't a POS.
Tons of modified 09-14 R35 GTRs out there in the UK and Europe and all selling for £40k-50k, the same as a stock one of the same model years.
But anyway, you and I are both guessing and I doubt we will ever know anything close to a correct answer.
It's hard to say for sure what the number is but you can be pretty confident that actual running and working cars that aren't on jack stands or in several pieces will only be a few hundred globally.
Australia, Japan, etc. have to pass emissions and thus most people don't go too crazy with modifications in an attempt to build a 600-1000 hp monster.
In my opinion the US is also likely to have the most working 3 rotors given the wealth of the country compared to everywhere else. Also, values of cars vary greatly depending on the market. There was a working 3 rotor in the UK sold last year for about £12,000. Big turbo, aftermarket apex seals, everything done and the body and paint was actually above average.
Stock FDs, particularly 99-specs and Spirit Rs command £15,000-25,000 nowadays. Older 92-98s command about £6,000-14,000 depending on condition. At least in Europe from what I have seen, aftermarket cars don't sell for premiums that are going to cover the financial outlay required to get a 3 rotor up and running and working in a car that isn't a POS.
Tons of modified 09-14 R35 GTRs out there in the UK and Europe and all selling for £40k-50k, the same as a stock one of the same model years.
But anyway, you and I are both guessing and I doubt we will ever know anything close to a correct answer.