be more misinformed.

Well said! It's not like rotaries have "rotor" bearings or anything stupid like 'pissed-on' engines do! And they don't have any "oil" rings that'll wear out, or things that'll wear out! What a great argument! Well said! This should shut all those V8 guys up!

^^^Not that I'm a big fan of the v8 swaps (because I'm not), but rotary engines do indeed have rotor bearings, and stationary gears bearings, and they also oil control o-rings.....I do agree that all of the parts I just mentioned can last longer than 100k miles.

I LOVE MIS-INFORMATION LOL SOLID 9INCH REAR......AHHHH I LOVE IT

Wrong, a perfectly tuned turbo rotary will shred it's guts when something simple fails and leans out the motor. That's why over the top rebuilds, tuned perfectly, do fail at times. Even perfect condition rotary turbo cars will occasionally chip an apex seal without explanation, all it takes is a bad tank of gas. Most times the V8, when suffering the same subsystem failure, will simply bobble for a moment and not destroy itself, giving very adequate indication of an issue (rather than the rotary's indication of a needed rebuild, big difference).

But just to be fair, swapping in another drivetrain into an FC/FD will add in some unreliability due to the swap ... lots of non-factory electrical and fluid connections and components to fail, not to mention the failure of mazda drivetrain components being subjected to tons of torque.

Wow another pistons vs rotary thread!

Glad you got a ride in a swapped FD.

I drove one briefly and auto-xed it twice. I think the swap makes the car feel more like a hot rod with the sound and feel of the V8, it is up to you if that is right for your ride.

Swapped FDs can be absolute MONSTERS on the auto-x course. 60lb weight penalty over stock with a HUGE torque advantage which is key for auto-x.

No, key for autoX is rebuilding your engine twice a year.

IF you're an old school redneck that is unfamiliar with all this new fangled jap stuff, and you are unable to troubleshoot and maintain your japanese sportscar, then I guess the logical course of action WOULD be to revert to the only thing you know...old school american V8 engines with OHV pushrod setups.

It's no different than some old ass man who's built and tuned carburetors all his life, buys a newer GTO and wants to modify it but doesnt want to learn about the fuel injection and what is required to make power with it. So he pulls out the ls2 and drops in an old school 350 with a holley and a nitrous plate and goes to have fun. Sure, he got what he wanted, and he did it his way, but he devalued the car and those who know more about what they are doing will point and laugh at him for being a fool with his old school mindset.

For those who like a challenge and don't mind pulling themselves out of 1972, setting up a rotary is not that big a deal, especially when the car already comes with one that bolts and plugs directly in place with no need for custom mounting, drivetrain, cooling or wiring engineering.

And yeah, so what if high power rotaries require rebuilds every couple of years? If you don't wait until the thing lets go, you can pull one and go back through it for a grand worth of parts most of the time. When one is simplified (no emissions, single turbo) you can usually have it out of the engine bay within an hour or 2 with a single person. Hell, I've had them out, torn down, quick-and-dirty refreshed, reassembled, reinstalled and running in about 10 hours' time, with no machine work required.

I need to make something clear here.

When the thread was first started and I replied, it was in the 3rd gen specific tech area. It has since been moved, but I am not aware of when this occured. Some of you who came along in the thread later may not have been aware of this, and may think that I came into "your" engine conversion section to "stir up shit" when in fact this was posted in "the rotary people's" 3rd gen tech area to begin with. Thus my comments above regarding v8 posts being started in sections other than the "other engine conversions" area.

Wow, what an uneducated post.:rlaugh:

The rotary does have oil control rings. In fact, it has quite a few. Each rotor has oil control rings + oil control o-rings. And yes, they do wear out.

See for yourself: http://www.rebuildingrotaryengines.c...s_installation

It also has rotor bearings. Yes, rotor bearings are not made of adamantium, so yes, they do wear out.

Apex seals. Well, the last time I checked, Rotary Aviation nor any other company has utilized the full capacity of adamantium, either. So yeah, apex seals (3*2 = 6) do wear out as well.

It also has corner seals, lots of them. It also has side seals, a lot of them.

All of these seals also have seal springs, which do see friction, heat, and pressures as well.

Let's not forget the infamous coolant o-rings as well.

Needless to say, the rotary do have many points of failures. This can be something as mild as a slight crack to something as catastrophic as a complete seal failure.

Man, you fail.

Kevin, I admire the work that you do, but you need to get your head out of your ass in this argument.

As you said, "And yeah, so what if high power rotaries require rebuilds every couple of years?"
Really, out of all of the owners of the RX7, who absolutely doesn't mind one bit on rebuilding it "every couple of years"? Not very many. Also, take into account the fact that not everyone has the ability to just rebuild at a whim, technically and financially.

Another point I'd like to make is the fact that you can claim that you can rebuild a rotary for around a grand each time. Sure, this may be true of "minor," not that I put it quotations, as some qualify a blown coolant o-ring as a "minor" issue. But what if the apex seal were to actually blow? I don't know of the quality of the rebuilds that you are doing, but a "quality" rebuild requires that you replace the rotor housings, side housings, bearings, oil control rings, apex seals, and all gaskets. I HIGHLY doubt that you could rebuild a "quality" 13BREW for but a mere thousand dollars. The housings alone will exceed that cost.

It's a silly notion that some higher powered rotary guys have, justifying that "rebuilding" every 20-30k miles is "okay." Couple this with the fact that but only a handful are exceeding 400rwhp, with a much smaller amount of torque.

The LSx platform, on the other hand, has been known to exceed well above 200k miles of use. Take a look at the LSx boards, and I assure you that you will find but a fraction of the "OMFG I BLEW ANOTHER MOTOR" threads that you see on the 3rd/2nd/1st gen boards. A bent push rod here from a stupid over rev is but a mere drop in the bucket compared to the cost of a quality rotary rebuild from a qualified builder.

Let's get on to power. For a LSx to build 400whp/400tq, you are only in the mild cam/head combo territory. And yes, this will still pass emissions, net 30mpg on the highway, and last well into the 200k mile territory. The same can't be said about the Rotary. Sorry, there is just no argument to this.

I love the rotary, don't get me wrong. But the rotary has its place -- high hp/forced induction just isn't one of them.

Hell, if using durable and highly-scalable technology "from the 1920s" makes me a redneck, hell, slap a mullet on me and call me Billy Bob Clark.:patriot:

a good friend of mine has a nice low mileage 93 FD with a 2001 LS1 swap. he used the hinson kit and made his own headers and exhaust. he has the headers, a cam, CAI, and EMS (hp tuners), and made 360whp and about equal torque. he also has tein flex coilovers, 18x8f 18x9r wheels, azenis tires, all new delrin susp bushings.

my 93 FD at the time just had an intake, downpipe, midpipe (stock catback), full non-sequential mod and running @10psi. koni yellows, azenis tires. i dyno'd 265whp @10psi on this setup.

we swapped cars at autocross for 2 runs and we ran almost the exact same times in the other's car that we did in our own cars on the previous 3 runs. we enjoyed driving eachothers cars. it was a lot of fun. i quickly noticed the instant torque, which was kinda cool. i just dont really like the whole nature of the ls1. its old school pushrod stuff, everybody fuckin has one (its the new sr20det swap), its big, the valvetrain is noisy, who whole engine is loud and vibrates alot.

the bottom line is the lsx swap is cool, but not 7k+ dollars cool.
with that much money i'd probably rebuild my 13b for the hell of it and port it, get a nice aspec gt35r kit, haltech e8, vmic, new leather seat skins, etc. and i'd keep the extra money...

also, who said the v8 rx7 is more fun to drive than a rotary rx7 of the same HP? really, what about a v8 could possibly be cooler than turbo noises, wastegates, blow off valves and turbo power curves? naturally aspirated v8's are boring, consistent, and they last forever -that's why people swap them into their rx7s.

i agree with you:
engine longevity (yeah, its NA. no shit)
torque to match the horsepower
good gas mileage on the interstate (all the v8 swap guys i know get about 17-18mpg in the city)

these are all valid points, but do they warrant a 7 thousand dollar engine swap?

you mention all the money it costs to do a quality engine rebuild to a rotary (or have one done by a shop), but who cares when you have 7 thousand dollars sitting around?

I see sarcasm doesn't travel well across the internet ;) I have an LS1 RX-7, I was just playing off of psychotic7's post and what he said.

See, you have no problem tearing apart "my" post with a little bit a skewed/false information, but the fact of the matter is, your post was almost exactly the same, just arguing in the other direction, see the irony here?

Fair enough, this is news to me...my apologies.

Gents...I quoted this because it's the most realistic statement in this post so far!!!

You break an apex seal at high boost/8K RPM....$1,000 rebuild with no spares, amazing deals or great buddies, I don't know man!!...in 15 years of owning rotaries I've destroyed one or two....ok maybe more.

That aside I've never been a V8 swap fan and I agree with all the pro-rotary comments here, I never considered putting an LSx into my FC until now...and I'll give you guys one very very good reason....wanting a +400hp RX....under California law, one bad thing...LSx engines with trannies are expeeeeeensive!! Not to mention difficult to find, went looking for one with a buddy that is going to do a swap on his 67 Camaro and couldn't find one from LA down to the border, tons of 300hp 4.6's but zero LS's

Of course my front running choice so far is to do a TT swap and see how much can be upgraded and still be "legal", it's not going to be 400hp but.....so...recommendations in SOCAL are welcome...

Anyway...my 1.5 cents

I'll have to agree with you that finding a LS1/T56, let alone a fully dressed LS1 is a difficult thing to do. I currently have two people who frequent auctions looking for pullouts. I've been quoted at $4k for the entire pullout (2001+ LS1/T56/ECU/Harness/Emissions).

As far as keeping the sequential system and making as much power as possible, it's possible to push the 350whp mark and still pass emissions. Though, you'd be pushing your sequentials pretty hard.

I'm not going to lie here. But a quality LS1/T56 build on a FD, with AC, full emissions, new clutch, PS, etc. will run a little higher than that.

But the same can be said of a quality rotary rebuild. If you want the motor to seal as well as possible and have the greatest longevity, you'll want new housings, new rotor bearings, possibly lapped and re-nitrided side housings, new clutch while you're in there, a new gasket kit, etc.

I mean, I don't disagree with you that a rotary can be rebuilt for the cost of a new gasket kit and some new apex seals. But in most cases, such as a blown apex seal or a higher mileage motor, this isn't possible unless you're willing to accept that you have just built a "slop motor," or a motor of poor quality. It will take longer to reach peak compression, and when it does, it will be lower than that of a "quality" build.

Basically what I'm saying is that for $7k, you're also stretching your budget on a properly set up high HP rotary. A new turbo kit is already half of your budget, and lets not forget a proper fuel system, an intercooler kit, supporting clutch, ECU, etc. Unless you already have the most of the supporting parts, I'd find it difficult to build a quality high-hp setup for around $7k. But then again, if I had the supporting parts for a LS1 swap, I'd only be a subframe away from building it too.

Also note that most people do sell their rotary related parts, and granted they are in decent shape, you recover a large fraction of the costs to build a LS1 FD.

Let's not even get into longevity, as how many of you know people who have consistently pushed over 20-30k miles on a 400whp+ setup?
:lol:
You forgot to put it in teal.

I've got a complete one FS w/35k miles in a 2001 Camaro SS.

Having owned 2 rotary FD's and 1 Ls1 FD, I gotta say LS1 FD, hands down. I am $4000 deep in labor and still only 300 WHP, LOL.

Yes, I pay to play, so no single day rebuild for me, nop. Most of us can't even do that anyway.

So the purpose of owning a 7 is too have tons of problems and still go slow? And while you are going slow, having to worry about boost problems or possibly blowing the engine,LOL.

Gimme an lsx any day of the year.

You know, it's funny....I'm making north of 400 rwhp on pump gas (have been for many years), and my FD has zero major problems, and my car sure as shit isn't slow. Maybe the problem is with the owner, rather than the car? Different strokes for different folks I guess :).

I have a 13b-rew in an FC reffed as street legal it could maybe make 350 WHP in legal form.

You can infact make 350 whp from a T2 all legal pretty cheap with a BNR stage 3 turbo, HF cat converters, standalone of choice and still pass smog, fairly cheaply but that is the upper limit, and its going to take some knowledge on the part of whomever sets things up.

^ Do you have a white FC?????

If you want a ls in a light car, which is the only reason Id do a v8 swap in the first place, buy a miata.

Not everyone has regular access to Mr. Kan or to a knowlegable rotary shop like you do. I agree, if everyone's turbo'd 13b's were looked after as well as yours there would be less engine failures.

Yes, different strokes, can we all get along now :djcelebra

Mine is a factory blue S5 GTU with no sunroof

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...7&d=1179268527

Actually, steve hasnt touched my car in a few years now, and I don't have access to a full-blown rotary shop----Ihor and I basically created our own small shop from scratch out here in NJ. I agree with what you're saying, just wanted to make some amendments ;)

I think all these rotary fans in here are nothing more than in the closet V8 lovers. We know your secrets ... remember, most of us were once rotards too, some of us still are, loving both V8 and rotary.

This thread is like the longevity of a turbo rotary...it keeps going, and going, and going, and...

Yep, turbo rotaries keep going a long time because folks don't drive them much, too afraid the motor will blow up

Track record says otherwise.

Getting back to the actual topic of the thread...

I remember the first time I rode in a LS1 FD. It was owned by a local Naval Dentist. Man oh man, I don't remember having that much fun in a FD, ever. The sheer torque across the entire powerband was just amazing.

i've been around a lot of piston motors, built a lot of piston motors and i just cant see how anyone can say that the rotary cant be as reliable as the piston motor. This is my opinion, if you take care of your rotary motor its going to last a LONG time, the more stuff you change on it to make more power the less reliable its going to be UNLESS you know how to take care of it. The same goes for piston motors, all v8 guys are saying oh i get 25+mpg on the highway well im sorry to tell you that i highly doubt that if you are making 400+whp also how fun can the car be to drive if you have to baby it to get the 25+mpg at least with a rotary that has been cared for properly it will last, get good mileage with gas and you can beat on it all at the same time and still get around the same gas mileage. A rotary motor is more efficient.

They arent for everyone because not everybody maintains cars the same way. Some guys just change oil and go. Others actually take the time to check oil levels, tire pressure and the myriad other things that should be checked on your car whether its v8 or not. If you know how to care for your car and treat it as a member of your family it's going to last a LONG time. Its preventative maintenance, and i guess what got me started being so hardcore about it is racing my dirtbike, after every ride or race i would change the oil, airfilter, trans fluid if it was in a seperate sump (depends on what bike i was using) go over every nut and bolt on the bike make sure nothing was loose or lost, clean the bike til it looked like it came off the showroom floor ten minutes ago and then run it for a bit to make sure everything was cool.

Its all about caring for what you own, some people just buy new stuff instead of maintaining and thats where i believe the rotary motor gets its bad rep, it requires a little more preventative maintenance than a piston motor does, but look at the tradeoff for a little more time spent caring about maintenance.

anyways just my opinion

i wish all the rotary haters would just admit that they dont know how to make a reliable 300+whp rx7 without dropping a v8 into it.

bwahaha so true

So wrong, any knowledgable rotary guy or gal knows the rotary motor has poor thermal efficiency and therefore is not fuel efficient relative to most piston motors. Hell, just look at how much air it takes to make hp relative to a piston motor, here do you think that energy is going? How can you say the rotary is more efficient when it is not, idiotic.

What some are saying is that even the best built, maintained, and tuned rotaries sometimes go boom. When they go boom it's a rebuild. As before I am not saying a V8 is better, it's personal choice and for some it's a helluva challenge to complete the transplant.

Many are not doing it for reliability, it's for the fun of it.

what about torque?

here let me rephrase that because you are correct and what i said was convoluted and kinda confusing. Rotary motors are more efficient in making power because they are capable of more power per liter than a piston motor. What i am saying is is that if you have a 400whp lsx motor and a 400whp rotary motor your going to be getting better gas mileage still because of the small size of the rotary motor. If you had a large rotary motor lets say 5.0 (this is merely an example) versus a piston motor of the same displacement of course the piston motor is going to get better gas mileage because of the thermal efficiencie issues that the rotary has. That is not the case here though because we are talking 1.3l versus a v8 of 5l or more.

This is not true. A rotary gets the same or worse mileage than a LSx motor. Read up a little the rotary is thermally inefficient compared to a piston engine. This is a known fact and not opinion.

My 240hp (same hp as the RX8) 3.5l Honda gets better mileage than an RX8 the Honda weighs 4300lbs empty and has a much larger frontal area.

So. You have decided you want a sportscar, and you have set forth certain criteria for your choice.

You want one that sits low to the ground, has limited interior room with 2 seats, and a rough ride in stock form. You want to have plenty of torque and growling exhaust note at your disposal. You want to make it into a street warrior and track beast. You plan to run staggered wheels with wide tires. You want it to run with/better than just about whatever is on the street or the track. You want the engine to be fairly reliable and the gas mileage to be in the high teens or low 20's for mixed driving. You want people to look at you and admire your car everywhere you go.

You have 2 choices. Buy said vehicle in stock form, or build it from parts and pieces of several vehicles. You have about 18-22 grand to spend on this project.

Yes, such a vehicle already exists, and it is called a Z06 Corvette. Drive up, hand over the money, sign the title, put the key into the ignition, and drive away. Done.

The one you could build is the v8 rx7. The money will end up being about the same whether you buy or build your corvette...er rx7. IT will take you months to do and/or thousands of dollars in labor costs and custom parts if you pay someone else, and it will end up as a bastard child of a conversion when it is done. You will have nagging electrical interface issues for every function of the car...cruise, a/c, p/s, gauges, cooling, etc. Some places you go, your car will be admired and welcomed, other places you will get hated on and your car will be shunned at rotary gatherings, not to mention on the internet forums.

That's simply not true. You can get a good FD shell for $5k-$6k. The pullout costs, at most, $4500 for a low mileage engine and tranny plus accessories. Swap kit will run you at most $1600. If you want a stock motor, you've nearly got everything you need. Wiring, PS, AC, Cooling, will run you ~$500. Labor, really depends on where you go. That can range anywhere from $2k-$4k. Tuning can cost from $200-$500. We'll just say a random $1k for odds and ends, just to be generous. That's $17k right there. Last time I checked, you couldn't get a ZO6 for anywhere near that. If you truly want the hp of a ZO6, cam swap gets you there for another $1k. There are plenty of people that have already done them. There's no guess work left, it's already been figured out. Besides, I like the look of the FD a hell of a lot better than the corvette, plus it's not half as costly as one.

There are plenty of people that have already figured out the route to a 400+rwhp rotary FD, there is no guesswork left...yet you and others continue to act like it is rocket science.

The example given above was a z06, but a standard c5 vette would fit the same bill. You can get 'em all day long for $17-22k depending on condition etc. A z06 is a bit nicer, but as you said, you can get z06 power with a cam swap and a tune.

..i have a picture of a dead rotor and housing hanging on my wall...... like a cow skull.

-and you need to stock up on extra 13b's cause you ARE gonna need them.


also, i can assure you, i didn't buy my car for the power plant.

I never said anything about 400+rwhp being rocket science, it's very clear that the difference between the two engines at that level is reliability. Even a rotary running less horsepower is more liable to shit the bed than a hi-powered V8. And you're telling me that because C5's go for, after a quick browse through ebay, ~$20k that we should get one of those instead? Why? You'd still have to upgrade the engine, ~$2000 for cam, intake, and tuning, plus upgrade the suspension, $1k-$2k, to get it to the ZO6's level of performance. After all that, you'd still have a car that weighed 300lbs. more than an FD with a swap, not to mention I think the FD, '99+, looks better than a C5 anyway.

My car's never been shunned at any of the rotary gatherings I've taken it to. People aren't as tough in person as they are behind the anonymity of the internet.

The worst comment I've heard in person is that they wouldn't do it to their own car, which is fine. Different strokes and all that...

Of course, most of the time you then see those same people bragging to their friends online about how they put me in my place/told me where to stick my piston motor/etc. Everyone's a legend behind the protection of their keyboard. :jerkit:

of course it gets better its a damn honda man, i know the rotary is thermally inefficient. I have yet to see an lsx motor get better mileage than a rotary motor that is putting down the same hp. Besides honda v6's are super efficient.

I used to travel to an auto-x about 180 miles away in my FD, probably made the trip 20-25 times. The mileage was pretty consistent driving on I5, 23-24mpg IIRC. I think that is the same or a little worse than a LS1 with a manual trans behind it.

I must have mis-read your other post, I thought you stated the rotary was more efficient than a piston motor.

my buddy has a 500hp or so LSX and he gets around 20mpg. he had one with 350 and got over 20mpg.

If ever there was more of a truthful statement!:icon_tup:

Soory to break it to you Castratikron, I measured 27.5 mpg traveling 80-90 mph, the car dyno'd 405 to the tires. Try the search button sometime.

As to why we don't just buy a corvette? Just a few off the top of my head, cheap interior, corvette's are everywhere (the 1,000,000 rolled of the assembly line in 1988) and the whole midlife-crisis corvette following(religion?) is just cheesy imo. Basically, I don't want a friggin vette!