First time on the dyno - help me figure this out!
 

Ok, today was my first time on the dyno, and it was actually a lot of fun. I thought I would be making a few more ponies, but my main goal today was tuning (I dont have a wideband). First I give you my mods:
Racing Beat turbo back, K&N cone filter, removed emissions, street port, walbro 255, 720 seccondaries, Koyo radiator, stainless braided oil cooler lines, S-AFCII.

I would also like to say that I was pretty pleased with the SAFC. I know there are much better ways of tuning a car, but i think this worked pretty well actually.

Ok down to business. Everyone says that you should be running mid/low 11 AFRs under full boost. Well the numbers you see here are richer than they were when i started, but nowhere near low 11s. According to the graph it looks like i should add some fuel from about 4k on, to keep the AFR dropping, but I quit adding fuel because the car really acted like it is RICH. I mean, nostrils were burning with the fuel in the air, and flames were popping for the first time ever from my exhaust, and i was losing power fast.

So what do you guys think? I know I am new to this tuning thing, but the way the car was acting, i just couldnt bring myself to take the air/fuel ratio down another whole point. Thanks in advance for any help.

Oh, I made several runs today, but these are my last 2. Run 2 is the last one, and that is how the car is running now. You can see that it is richer than the next to last run. Black is A/F ratio, red is hp, and blue is torqe. The last run is richer, and less powerful, but i gained a little torque. Woot.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...ynosheet-1.jpg

Don't even bother looking at the AFR's...
If you're strapped onto the dyno, just adjust the fuel until you see BEST power.
Then add a little bit more fuel, and you're all good.


-Ted

I personally thing there is a big difference between low 11's and mid 11's. I try to keep a conservative timing map in high boost and run a solid 11.5:1 untill 1 bar, after that I shoot for 11:1 just for peace of mind since 99% of my driving is done under those boost levels.

also TED is right just be very carefull with the safc, I know back from my honda days that they ADD timing when reading positive manifold pressure so be carefull.

how much boost you running?

So you dont think what i have there is too lean? Cause i had a lot more power when on my first run, and of course it was even leaner.
I thought the safc didnt affect timing.
about 9psi

oh and thanks for all the input guys.

What did I say???
Don't look at the godamn AFR's.
Geez you people get so stuck on godamn numbers, you don't even realize what you're trying to do.
You're trying to make power, right?
Why do you care what the AFR's are?
If you're going to get into trouble (i.e. pre-ignition), your power will DROP.
Too lean - power will drop.
Too rich - power will drop.
Too retarded ignition timing - power will drop.
Too advance ignition timing - power will drop.
SEE THE PATTERN???

The dyno is the ULTIMATE tuning tool to adjust fuel and ignition.
No other meter (AFR / wideband / EGT / whatever) can give you the power to show if you're adjustments are correct or not, PERIOD.

STOP staring at the AFR gauge and concentrate on making power!


-Ted

Actually, I was going to mention but i forgot, that making as much power as possible isnt my goal. I just want to make sure my engine isnt going to blow.

I know power will drop if its too lean OR too rich, but I also know that the engine could blow if the AIR/FUEL RATIO is too lean, and this is what Im trying to avoid. Again I am new to this, and looking for opinions on my AIR/FUEL RATIO. I want to know if it is too lean to be safe for the engine. Power is NOT my main concern here.

Im not trying to be an ass, and I know you know a lot more about this than I do, I just think that maybe I didnt communicate to you effectively what I am looking for.

Thank you.

You're my hero.

how much power did u make before you added more fuel? with the same mods, I did 209.1 and 196.8 tq at 10psi on a 108 deg day and had only one small fan to blow air tuned only off the hks f-con. my engine is a low mileage jdm and has 102 psi on the front and 101 on the rear. i think you should be doing way more than me. My friend did 214hp 189tq on 8-9psi on his stockport rebuild.

Yeah it was up there at about 206 or 209, I dont remember, but that was after i had already added some fuel.

If this is the case, then why are you wasting your time and money with the dyno?


-Ted

Because i dont have a wideband yet, and i wanted to make sure its running safely until I can get one.

Waitaminute...

You are worrying about AFR's, but you don't own a wide-band?
And you're trying to dial it all in on a dyno?

Oh gawd...


-Ted

Yes, that is correct. As soon as I succeed in life enough to be able to afford a wideband, I will buy one. But in the mean time, I got on the dyno to do what I can for the time being. In my opinion it wasnt too bad of an investment because it allowed me to get familiar with reading AFRs with someone who knows what they are doing, it let me know that my car was indeed running lean which i do not want, it gave me some practice using my SAFC and instantly seeing the results, and i found out how many horses i am making, which is not vital information, i just think its nice to know.

Ted I know you are very knowledgeable about RX-7s, and I respect that. I come to people like you in hopes of getting help, as I am still learning this stuff. But now im starting to wonder how many of your 23,000 posts are just flaming noobs.

Thank you.

You're welcome to do a search and do your own research.


-Ted

how much did it cost to get your car dyno'd?

THIS SHOULD BE PUT AS A STICKY!!!!!!!!!
I try to explain this ALL THE TIME and people DON'T GET IT!
You tune by AF on the STREET to be safe, on the dyno the DYNO TELLS ALL!

Uh huh, well in this thread you're trying to be helpful in 1 out of 5.





Ok people, we've gotten way far off track now. Weather you think I should have put my car on the dyno or not, it happened, because for now thats the only way I can tell what my A/F ratios are. Let me remind you that my purpose of going there was to tune the AFRs, NOT to tune for maximum power.

So again, if anyone wants to help, I am wondering if you were in my situation, would you add more fuel to get the AFRs down to the 11s (which I am told is a safe mixture), even though it seems to me (someone who is inexperienced) that its running rich already (shooting flames, etc)?

Thank you.

what kind of exhaust do you have? are there any leaks? i don't always trust a dyno's wideband... unless we screw it in to the downpipe , via an o2 sensor bung. even so, they see so much abuse and aren't always calibrated.

i like my turbo cars to me much closer to mid 12s, if that is the answer you are looking for?
but i don't like to do work twice, so i REALLY set my car to best power and the AF is what the AF is.

I have the racing beat turbo back, and there arent any leaks. And yeah, I realize now that i made a mistake, because the guy asked if he should put the sensor into where my O2 sensor is, and i said just put it in the exhaust tip, because at the time i didnt know if removing my O2 sensor would mess up my tuning, but now I know that the O2 sensor really only does anything at idle and cruise.

Yeah, I see what you are saying. I do understand what you guys are saying about the tuning for best power. The thing is Im really not all that worried about making as much power as possible, I just want to tune it to a nice safe AFR so my engine will last. I guess im just unsure about what a "good, SAFE" AFR is. ;)

I don't know why you own an FC or any sports car for that matter.
If all you cared about is reliability (and not power), why not own a Toyota Corolla / Tercel / Camry?

I actually stated how to make safe power, but I guess you didn't understand that part of my reply.


-Ted

So stop wasting your time.

Just because he wants to shoot for some reliability doesnt mean that all he cares about is reliability. If that was the case he wouldnt be driving a rotary, let alone a turbocharged one. Its clear that he is trying to make some power, but doesnt feel the need to make every last hp at the expense of reliability. There is NOTHING wrong with that.

It gets really tiresome watching you parade around here with your chest puffed out like you are some kind of god. Great you have 23k posts. Awesome. You would think by now you wouldnt waste your time flaming new guys for asking a question. That you would have, at some point, grown(up) out of it. yet I constantly see you doing it. Whats the point? Bumping up your post total so you can puff up a little more? Making you feel better when you wake up? Trying to be funny?

"HAHA Did you guys see that?! I put soap in his coffee! Take that you fucking rookie!"

get over yourself.


BC

and if you do read this, dont bother replying. Save it for some other post I make. Im not going to check this thread again. So spend a few minutes right now, come up with a witty, razorsharp reply, write it down so you wont forget it, and use it next time I dare to challenge the great RETed. You can start it out with something about not understanding why I drive an FC cause I didnt get TII. I look forward to it.

I think you also missed the point, that is why i wanted the original post stickied. Your car makes the MOST power UNDER THE SAFEST CONDITIONS.
you LOSE power by pingging, have too much timing, too little timing, too lean, too rich, on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

the point to the whole thing that everyone needs to get is, ON A DYNO the most hp is acheived at the same time that the safest numbers are acheived - based on your boost of course.
If you run more boost than your engine likes, that is a different story.
Noone is busting anyones balls here, if you new and want to learn something, then read the first post! regardless if it has some arrogence in it..... i think the 'annoyance' is coming that every post is already answered in the original post, just like 'can i turbo my NA?', its already been discussed!
If you have something else more specific, then ask. the newest was 'what AF do you run' I said mid 12's, then prolly down to 12.1 at the end just in case of boost creep or something.
Newest question is what is safest AF, not sure. I think that is A. engine dependent, and B. opinionated
since i have never blown an engine, i say my original answer stands as my new answer, but i am not your motor. Will you be safer the richer possible? Yes, but you waste gas, kill your brain cells, polute the earth and make less power

Because having a safe-running TII is still a hell of a lot more fun that driving a tercel, and I already have a reliable daily driver. I dont think its a crime to have a car thats fun to drive and still not want to worry about the engine blowing up.

I guess you're right. You said (paraphrased, because i dont want to go back and find exaclty what you said), "tune for the most power, then add a little fuel, and there you go." That is a great reply, and probably a good answer. But at one point i was making a lot more power than i am now, but my AFRs were in the 15s, and I have NEVER heard anyone say that is safe on a turbo rotary. Therefore I am looking for other people's opinions, as well as considering your input. I appreciate you (at first) trying to help, but I could do without condescending remarks just because I dont know everything there is to know about my car and you obviosly do.

Then you're another one who didn't get my point about how to tune for safe power...

I really don't give a shit what you think about me.
If you're going to infer all of that crap, then that's your problem, not mine
I don't do this to pad my post count; if you got a problem with the post count, then go bitch to the admins.
I don't care if my post count is where it is or back down to "0".
Maybe you can ask the admin to reset my post count?


You're making a lot of (wrong) conclusions just through my postings on here.
That makes you look really stupid.
If that's how you just people, then I don't know what to say...


How about I do you one better...a favor?
I'll just add you to my ignore list.
Done.


-Ted

i agree with the 12:1 afr's for anything under 10psi on a stock turbo... honestly i like to not flood out with running stupid rich, but more so using my timing to keep it safe :)

yeah yeah... keep the tuning info coming!!!!

I should have an ems in my car by summer.(if my 7 doesnt keep having gay as problems.)

Christ. You people. The guy was looking for a simple number answer, not a 2 page debate, most of which didnt give him an answer he was looking for. As long as you can keep it less than 13 and higher than 10.5 or 11 across the board you should be safe and make ok power at the same time. Anything above 13 to me is too close to stoich, and less than 10.5 gets into the cant breath for the fumes category. Idealy, you would tune for best hp, but this way is just as good as long as you dont mind a few hp loss here and there. Hope that helps a bit. Thats by no means a definitive answer but what I like to go by.

Ted, you need to settle the fuck down and stop being a dick to everyone. The majority of the posts you make are similar to these. Your disrespectful and rude. Someone needs to knock your teeth down your throat so you learn some goddamn respect for other people, and stop being such a douche all the time. You may gove helpful info, but that doesnt mean you have to be rude all the time. You represent your state very well. I hope the rest of the population isnt as asshat like as you.

If you have nothing useful to contribute, then you're waste our time.
It just shows how ignorant you are on the subject.
I'll put you on IGNORE too.


-Ted

I contributed more than your ass did on this topic asshole. At least my reply was relevant to his question. Too bad you cant see this since Im on ignore :fawk: As if I give 2 shits. :icon_tup:

lol... ted my wife bought me a shirt it says I will try being nicer if you try being smarter.... I think it applies here. You guys have to understand ted's frustration with all of us noobs coming in and getting a little knowledge and then doing dumb things.. We see it as our first screw up or dumb thing, Ted has been around a while he has seen the projects come and go and he knows how flaky people are so when you come in acting like you are acting and wanting advice and then argueing wth the advise or asking for advise when you mess something up or order something off of ebay when you could have asked before hand and he could have saved you the pain and suffering. These guys are seasoned vets of the rotary world and he doesn't mean to belittle you but read your posts man...


I guess it is my personal preference willingness to learn and be teachable but I would much rather listen to someone like Ted who will get in my face to help me avoid making a mistake than some pansy who will let me screw up my car cause I am being stupid. thats all I have to say on the topic.

Wow, a Ted fan. I never thought I would see the day. I'm glad you think Ted's knowledge and experience justifies him to dehumanize people and belittle them. Ted has answered some of my questions and helped me out but what I see is someone who simply enjoys antagonizing people. I wonder what he's like in person?

I bet he is the same in person. I like to antagonize as well but that is really not the case here.... You don't ask for advise and then argue when someone knowledgable tries to help. thats all... I think most of you old school forum guys get a bit jerky with the noobs.. ted just does it with flare. So yeah I guess I am a Ted fan.. lol

No clue if you're going to read this... but Ted, I really wish you would be less of an ass. I can tell that you know what you're talking about and could really help out the community a lot more than you do. Your post about tuning earlier was very informative. However, it was followed by posts that made me want to ignore what you said.

Just because you know more than other people about something doesn't make them stupid. Ignorance != stupidity. You had to learn somehow too.

I'll probably make it to your ignore list (if I'm not already), but it's sound advice. Someday you'll grow up and realize that belittling people is something that only reflects badly upon yourself.

Could not have said it better myself.