Highend FD Coilovers: What's Good Enough?
 

I am currently finishing up a full powerflex bushing install and need to get a set of coilovers ordered asap. Only problem is I can't decide on a set to go with. Any advice or first hand experience would be great.

Usage is 75% street (weekend toy) 25% DE track day. Aiming to do 1-3 DE events a month during the summer.

On the table:
-Ohlins Road and Track
-Stance XR (apparently these are re badged DG5 coilovers)
-Also open to other options 3k and under.

Ohlins
Positives
-Ohlins's makes great shocks
-Should be around in the future for rebuilds

Negatives
-Pillow ball mounts
-11k front and 11k rear springs???


Stance
Positives
-Proper rubber mounts
-Swift springs in any rate without having to purchase additional springs
-Relatively fair price

Downsides:
-Rebuilds for years to come?
-Quality of the shock valving? I come from the e36 M3 world where Bilstein, Koni, and AST are the big players. I have never heard of a DG5 coilover, let alone if they are on par with the big names.

I know the Ohlins will be a wonderful shock able to handle double duty however are they worth $1k more? From all the research pillow ball mounts will add NVH. I don't mind a small amount, just do not want to turn the FD into a rattle can. I have only experienced pillow ball mounts on a civic race car thus could not attest to where the added NVH was coming from:lol: Lastly, the Ohlins come standard with 11kg front and 11kg rear springs. This seems odd as all the research I have read, including Howard's threads, indicate we should follow the stock setup with respect to a similar split in spring rate. Looks like I would also need to purchase additional rates to test.

I am also researching if the stance top mounts will fit on the Ohlins.

:scratch:

At that price point I highly recommend you consider Zeals. Myself and Scrub run them on track and they've been phenomenal. Plus, they can be serviced within the USA.

There's nothing wrong with upper pillowball mounts and stiff springs, especially if paired with a high-quality damper. I run 12k/10k and Dan has 14k/12k and neither of us plan to change anytime soon :)

PM Miata_MX5 here on the forum, he works for Zeal and has been very helpful in the past :icon_tup:

The Stance XR is a custom valveable and serviceable unit in the USA. Stance just got their shock dyno to and I believe they are in your Chicago area. They are currently in the process of getting the tooling to valve the XR's here in the states as well. In regards to testing the valving of that particular coilover you can see that on site over there. The units are completely hand assembled, the casing is honed, tolerances are meticulously measured. a lot of what you will find with the Zeal coilover that I to have on all my retired projects. This unit is made and assembled in Japan. It is their flagship single adjustable.

I currently have them in 12/10 format and will have the custom 10/8 setups in a month.

Alternatively, if you're looking for a sub $1500.00 budget coilover that is also built to the desires and demands of the masses on the board I have spent several months working on a digressively valved, longer stroke, 10/8 Stance GR+ coilover. With standard stance springs it should retail between $1600 and $1650.00. I'm considering making it standard with Swift springs, but that might increase the cost more than I'd like.

Other than that Zeal is the only other damper I would suggest in the springs rates people are asking for.

Thanks, Rishie

If you want the 12/10 i'll give you an uber spanking deal.

Ohlins hands down. I wouldn't put those in the same category as the others. It's lucky that they are under $5,000. As far as Ohlins go it's a very good deal. I believe they are actually manufactured by Yamaha to Ohlins specifications.

I have a set of great condition Ohlins PCVs with an extra set of springs and only 3500 street miles on them for $1450, shoot me a PM if you are interested.

Agreed. High end suspension engineers (for stuff like Moton, Penske) will tell you that a great deal of the energy that goes into shock tuning is for that first 1/8 of travel. You wanna do that with the expensive valving you paid for, or with rubber?

I went with Ohlins Road and Track and swift springs. My next down choice wold have been Stance.

Agreed, Ohlins/Moton/Penske are in a totally different category and price range. I don't compare those to the Zeal/Stance/Cusco/HKS price ranges.

Rishie

What rate swift springs did you go with? Did you try the Ohlins with the factory 11k front and rear?

We are swift distributor but at the same time Touge Factory in Chicago might even have them in stock if you need a good local source. Talk to Scott.

Rishie

Ohlins recommends no more than 30% spring increase with the stock coilovers that will make it 14k F 14k R.

I went with re-valved Ohlins so i can run 18k F 18k R, do to monster rims and tires
3 rotor up front with 19x9 244/35/19 and 19x12 335/30/19 lol

A set of race ZEAL Super Function XRs fully optioned out with Staubli quick disconnectors, 30 x 30 way remote adjustment reservoirs, and everything will run you $6000-$8000. A bit out of the $2000 dollar price bracket.

That said, we still use our ZEAL Components in motorsports worldwide and dare I say offer the most amount of quality options for the Japanese cars. At least all of the ZEAL/ENDLESS stuff is still made in Japan also. No outsourcing here.

ZEAL products are available through AutoRnD as well :)

Please the jealous is already high in this thread lol

I'm going to order the Ohlins on Tuesday from Michael at Improved Racing.

Look's like I'll also pick up a set of swift springs, 10k front and 8k rear. When dropping the rear down to 8k from 11k, will it be necessary to go with a taller spring to compensate for the softer rate? Once I find the spec's on the Ohlins springs, free height and ID, I'll send you over a PM for a quote.

Thanks all and I'll be sure to report back with a proper review.

Ohlins spring sizes
65mm ID
200mm Fronts
180mm rears
Get them from
https://www.good-win-racing.com/mazd...arg=secure%3d1
2852.00 shipped
Hope that helps...
Chip U

Just put in the order with Improved Racing this morning. What is everyone's thoughts on the spring rates of 11k front and 11k rear that come stock with the coilovers?

Mazda from the factory has more spring in the front just as most aftermarket coilover's do. Reading Howard's threads around motion ratio's etc, would it be more optimal to swap in 10k front 8k rear springs? I am running stock 94 sways however do have the thicker 93 rear bar I may put on.

Made some progress the last few days.

First got all the arms back on with new powerflex bushings.

http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/a...h_IMG_2167.jpg

The build quality is top notch.

http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/a...h_IMG_2188.jpg

http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/a...h_IMG_2189.jpg

Yes pillowball mounts however they are easily replaceable. The manual even suggests changing them at the 20,000km rebuild.

Finished up installing all the coilovers at the Ohlins suggested spring preload and body length. Still need to swap the diff bushings to Powerflex at which point I'll drop it down and adjust the ride height. Corner balance and alignment is set for Tuesday. I am anxious to see how tail happy the car will be with the same spring rate front and rear. I swapped in the thicker 93 (17.3mm) rear sway bar however may quickly go back to the stock 94 (13.8mm)


A side note about the Powerflex steering rack bushings. The driver side bushing needs modification to fit correctly. Without it, here is what it fits like.

http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/a...h_IMG_2161.jpg

By comparing the stock bushing and the Powerflex you can see the stock bushing's sides are rounded where as the Powerflex bushing is squared off.

http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/a...h_IMG_2162.jpg

The rack is machined to accept the rounded edges thus the Powerflex will not fit correctly. Quick work with the dremel and it fits like it should. I thought at first the wider stub on the Powerflex bushing was causing it to not sit completely flush with the rack thus trimed it to match the stock bushings pyramid shape. Trimming the stub did nothing however I am not sure if it will be required once the bushing is rounded off correctly.

Additionally I have no clue what rear sway bar Powerflex designed their bushings for. They list them as 18mm however are too large for the 93 17.3mm rear sway.

Wow......:nod:

That about sums up the difference in going from stock 68k bushings to all new Powerflex bushings and of course Ohlins coilovers. I can not believe the difference, its something everyone needs to expierence.

Here's my corner balance and alignment sheet. The cross weights were within 8lbs of each other to begin with so no corner balancing was required?

http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/a...tCB6-28-11.jpg

Ride height is set at ~25.25 from the ground to fender lip. This is actually the outcome by following Ohlins instructions on shock length while assembling.

I can't wait to get more seat time and get out on a track next month. The 11k springs are much stiffer than stock however so far very streetable. This may be due to the fact I am still running the stock wheels and I'll be sure to report feedback once going up to 18's with 35 series sidewalls.

Thanks for all the info, keep it coming. Let us know if the mods improved your track times.

Cheers Jason

Just wondering how the Ohlins are feeling now given some time? The 11k springs aren't too harsh on the street and performed well on the track (if you got the chance to go)?

I'm also keen on a set but rather worried about the 11k springs being far too stiff for the street.

I won't be able to make it out on the track until next month however a friend convinced me to do an autox on the 31st.

Chicago roads are terrible thus I do feel the 11k rates may be too stiff for streets around me. More importantly before I swap any rates I want to see how it performs where these shocks are inteded to be, on the track.

I have the feeling it will be tail happy thus if it is I will start with swapping in the thinner 94 rear sway. If this still does not do the trick I'll go with 10k front and 8k rear springs next season.

Have you tried playing with the damper settings at all?

Other people have said setting the damper setting all the way to softest has improved the ride somewhat, but then some people have also said even at the hardest setting its not hard enough for the track...

It's all very abstract and subjective unfortunately.

I think Rishie made an awesome choice providing coilovers with Swift Springs. Most wouldn't take the extra effort in getting new springs (since coilovers already come with standard springs) unless they are shopping for different rates.

i have swift springs on my buddy club coilovers and they gave a vast improvement over the standard springs they came with. I've been told you can't go wrong with Hyperco's or Swift springs.


As far as high end suspension goes. If you're going to spend the money, I highly suggest you go all out and get a 2 way adjustable coilover. One where the compression and rebound can be adjusted independently. I find it hard for a single adjustable, regardless of how high end it is, to come anywhere near a 2 way adjustable if you are looking for precision control and comfort control.

I have a Lotus Exige that comes with single adjustable bilsteins. They were great, but i immediately jumped on a deal for a set of 2-way adjustable JRZ's. The moment I could adjust the rebound to be stiffer than the compression all around, you can feel a valued difference in comfortability and stability in weight transfer just from driving the street alone.

The person i purchased the JRZ's from recently had 2 way ohlins before the JRZ and his opinion was that the JRZ's performed "way better." i did not ask him details by what he meant. Take if for whatever its worth. I think he's shopping around for a set of quantums which have been valved and track tested for the Lotus extensively.


I'm surprised no one hear has mention quantums. Quantums are high end as well and I would put them right up there with JRZ's, without the JRZ price. They are used in Formula 1 as well. I am shopping for a set of 2 way quantums for my FD. If Rishie can get these here for 4k .. I'm game.

If you do a search on Ti Racing FD3S, they recently did 57 secs at Tsukuba Revspeed battle last december on what is virtually a street FD with 99 spec turbos doing about 330 rwhp. the car is equipped with quantums , but im sure Ti Racing had them valved to spec for them. I can try to find out more. 57 secs is pretty damn fast. for the longest time the Revolution FD3S was 56 secs on the same track.

I've been told to get the JRZ's since Im somewhat already familiar with them, but I would like to try out the Quantums. 57 secs on a street fd with moderate power is pretty impressive and enough proof for me to make a move. Now its all about price and getting the correct valving. I will try to find out what spring rates they were using.

Im sure there are alot of top brands out there with a proven reputation, but I prefer to go with a top brand that is proven specifically for our cars. At least i will know most of the homework has been done.

Ken

Get a tripoint front sway bar and it will help out alot as well. I think your rears will be fine as long as your dampening is softer in the rear than the front.

If you are really interested in your shocks, you can get them dyno'd and get a "no shit" assessment of what they are doing and what your range of adjustment really is. There are alot of local motorcycle shops that have shock dyno's that can dyno them.

Brent, what size front bar do you run? I'm running a tripoint 0.125" and wondering what others are using.

Kevin, I'm running the same. I believe their are three choices from Tripoint(I may have them mixed up with Mazda Motorsports): .095, .125, and .188

Shine Mentions the greatness of having dual adjustable suspension (compression + rebound).

I have a budget around $3000.

Options on the table that I am considering:
Stance GR+ 2way or 3Way (external reservoir)
http://www.stance-usa.com/sus/produc...ers/190-gr2way
http://www.stance-usa.com/sus/products/coilovers/gr3way

or
Ohlins DFV with 13K/11K Springs (They come with 11k, so I could pick up a 13K front and be done).
or
Zeal Function X/D

I can get you the GR+2 for FD for well below your budget. Just FYI.

MSRP is $2899.00 before discounts.

Rishie

If you want to go used I can get you a killer deal on a great set of coilovers without having to pay the new price.

Just to add afew details to a question on the first page regarding Stance coilovers deriving from Dg-5s.
DG-5 are the same coilovers as the former Kei Offices meaning that Keichi Tsuchiyia sold his company a few years ago.
RE-Amemiya uses (and sells) modified DG-5s on their "street" cornering machine (touge monster) and also on their drift D1-GP car. Remember these cars beat GT-R 35s in cornering and you know what R35s do to almost everyother "mass production" supercar.

RE-Amemiya also uses (and sells) modiified QUANTUM coilovers on their 3-rotor GT car (won the championship in '06 and came 5th last year if I'm not mistaken)
Quantum are also used by Ti-Racing and many other tuners........they should know.

Personaly I'am also on the search for a nice set of coilovers and I probably will go for the Ohlins Road and TRack mostly because their quality is second to none and they can be serviced in my country while DG-5s would have to be shipped back and forth to Japan for servicing.

Quantum coilovers, aka QRS. Have a wonderful website explaining in full detail the science behind their performance, cut through diagrams, shock dynos showing the 5 different piston head designs you can choose from, etc. It's fantastic, easily the technical information a suspension maker has ever provided to the public - even better than Ohlins.

The DG5 website reminds me of a trip back to 1994 Internet.

It's just real hard to sell me on DG5 because all they have are endorsements and strong word of mouth reputation. Even if it's a good product I don't know how much it's going to cost to rebuild it because all they have is an email form, no cost spreadsheet.

Stance USA is even shakier in my opinion because they are trying to associate themselves to the endorsements DG5 gets without any official affiliation to DG5. Stance Japan says that they are an American suspension company that just came to Japan. So it's a lot of contradictions and the only actual verifiable real data that I have been able to get is that Stance is receiving shipments from a Korean suspension maker. There are so many rumors and wild claims. But the only thing I know for sure is that at least some of what Stance sells is Korean. That discovery was countered by a Stance vendor who asserts that the Stance GR series is made in Korea, but everything else comes out of the DG5 factory. I can't even find a DG5 factory in Japan! They have one warehouse, but they aren't making them here. I don't think it matters a whole lot where they are made, but I just wish there was some truth. I'm not asking them to give me the name of their supplier, but at least an honest country of origin statement would be appreciated. The suspension companies that are proud of their production have no problem stating it. Ohlins R&T is manufactured in Japan by Yamaha, QRS is made in Japan, Eibach Multipro is made in America, the Germans are all made in Germany but everyone else (90% of what you see on the road) has lost their minds.

I to have the Ohlins with 14kg Swift Spings in Chicago. The ride is not THAT bad, but the Ohlin Coilovers are hands down amazing. I have my fronts set to 6 clicks from stiffest setting and the rear at 9 clicks from stiffest setting. The rear could maybe be a bit softer but the ride is not bad at all. Rough roads you will feel it, but highways it rides super smooth. I will have my first track day with these next month.

Quick update

After more seat time, I can't get over how much more enjoyable these coilovers have made the car. Both on the street and so far at 1 autox.

I did an autox with the Miata group over at Tire Rack's facility in South Bend Indiana and could not be happier with the way the car performed. AutoX at Tire Rack's facility is great because its on their actual test track. Even with the thicker 93 rear sway bar, the car felt very balanced. I quickly found the next weak link requiring replacement, TIRES. While these Fuzion ZRi's have been a good street tire, they just did not cut it at the autox.


I am now preparing for Road America in October with MVP track time. This will be the true test of the coilovers and the FD in general :lol:

This will be my first time at Road America so anyone tips or tricks on car setup would be appreciated.


Some area's of the car I need to tackle before the event.

Brakes. Currently have Hawk HPS, debating between swapping in Hawk HP+ or Racing Brake's ET800 series. Also plan on flushing the fluid with super blue.

Oil Coolers. Car is a PEP and only has the drivers side cooler. Trying to research if these cars actually require dual 25 row coolers or will the factory dual setup be enough?

Tires. Nothing but R comps in 245/45/16 and don't feel like spending money on factory sized 225 tires! I am trying to sell or trade my Work Equips (18x8.5 and 18x9.5) for more track oriented light weight wheels however due to the lack of interest and tire sizes available in 16's I may just buy tires and mount them up.


Besides the suspension overhaul seen in this thread, here is the rest of the setup.

Pettit ECU
SEQ twins (silicone hoses and new solenoids last year)
M2 intake box
Stock intercooler (I know, I know!)
Fuel Anti-Surge System, hardwired fuel pump
A-Spec Downpipe
A-Spec 3.5" exhaust
FC Thermo switch
Pettit AST
Fluidyne Radiator
ACT Clutch & SR flywheel
Profec B (I will keep boost at 10psi for reliability on stock intercooler)
Rotorsports motor mounts

I'll post an indepth update after Road America!

Give the ET800s a shot, I loved them for dual purpose pads..... this with the RB front big brake setup. Really scrubbed off speed on track compared to something like an HP+.

R1 oil coolers should work fine for you given moderate boost levels. Keep in mind the tiny openings on the usdm front bumper are also a limiting factor.

I'll PM you about the wheels/tires ;)

Don't know what you consider high end but I wouldn't put Stance in that catagory. made in Taiwan I believe in the same factories as bc racing, megan etc.

it is still a nice coilover, but when I think of high end coilover, i think of ohlins, zeal, moton, etc...

Long overdue update as I just got back from Road America.

First off, I got stuck using Fuzion ZRi tires on stock wheels, 225/50/16 all around. Keep that in mind for this review and more on that later.
Secondly, Road America is one hell of a track. While in the middle of nowhere, I would suggest everyone to make it out to an event. Be sure to catch a ride with an instructor, its unreal how fast some of them can make it around the track!


The Ohlins performed way above my expectations from both corner balance to ride quality over the rumble strips :). I have been skeptical about running the same spring rate front and rear (11k) however the car felt completely neutral, even with the thicker 93 rear sway bar. Brake dive and squat upon acceleration were also minimal.

Anyone familiar with RA, I was able to put the power down heavy out of carousel without the tail wanting to come out and play. Turn in was also perfect with the front shocks set at 6 clicks from full stiff and the rear 10 clicks from full stiff. Even when I got anxious around turn 14 getting on the boost early, the car was very balanced with no sudden urge for the tail to swap ends!

The Ohlins very much live up to their name, Road & Track.


Power wise on this long and fast track I had no problem staying with or passing cars on the straights. I havn't dynoed my car however I'd estimate with ~300rwhp it had PLENTY of power for this track. Not once did I feel it was lacking straight line acceleration. I was able to hit 140mph on the front straight with ease. With the brake issue detailed below I ended up keeping it to 120mph on the fast sections of the track.


Now the bad! Brakes and Tires

I wanted to give the Endless MX72 pads a try however due to availability I went with Racing Brake ET800 pads all around with Power Slot rotors. During hard braking, the rear ABS would engage at a VERY low threshold thus causing the rear of the car to become scary loose. Max rotor temp I saw after a 1/2 lap cool down was a measly ~300 degrees. For comparison, my friends evo was seeing ~500+ degrees after the same 1/2 lap cool down. He ran Hawk HT10 fronts, stock rears, PowerSlot rotors, Star Spec tires.

Now there are a number of factors I need to nail down (your input) on why the rear end was soo loose during braking.

1. The skinny fuzion tires were not helping. I played with tire pressure eventually settling with 30psi rear and 32psi front.
2. I had an ABS light hours before I had to leave for the event. This turned out to be a broken wire under the bins leading to the driver side abs sensor. In haste, I simply used a butt connector to fix this. I am wondering if this would mess up the signal going to the ABS computer?
3. Probably least significant however due to limited time and the front brake line fitting stripping, I was only able to put SS lines on the rear, front remained stock.
4. Too aggressive of a pad on the rear brakes?


Next steps are to mount up sticker tires and see if the it changes the dynamic of running the same spring rate. I am looking at 255/35/18 front and 275/35/18 rears.

Glad you did well at the track :)

and thanks! That's exactly what I wanted to hear :)

2. Yes.
4. No. Fix the ABS issue and bleed the brakes.

I'll solder the broken wire and measure resistance to make sure the rears are within spec.

I also did bleed the brakes very thoroughly the day before the event with superblue.

I like to run split friction pads for the FD for hard track use. Depends a bit on suspension and tires as well as the track.

Where and how were you checking rotor temp? That has a big effect on data too.

The EVO is more of a brake challenged car with a more aggressive ABS unit, more front brake load from the factory, and obviously a heavier car with higher grip tires.

300-500 degrees F of brake temperature is still pretty lukewarm, not really hot or anything to worry about.

Now comes the time to buy proper tires for the 2012 season and I could use some input.

Over the last few years I have acquired two additional sets of wheels along with the factory 16's.

18x10 Kinesis K58 (I'll end up selling these)
18x9.5 BBS RGR (Up in the air about keeping or selling, see below)
Stock 16's

I am planning 4-5 HPDE events this season along with 1-2k street miles. My thoughts and could use your input.

Option 1 - Toyo R888's 245/45/16 on the stock 16's
Stupid cheap compared to wide 18's. My concern is heat cycling them while driving on the street essentially wasting them. If I went this route, I'd sell all the 18's and have money left over for water injection and another set of R888 next season! ~$600 mounted.


Option 2 - 285/30/18 Yoko AD08 street tires
$374/ea at tire rack :lol: Widest tires I'll be able to fit on the BBS and stock body.


Option 3 - 255/35/18 Yoko AD08, Hankook RS3, or Star Specs
These slightly slimmer tires come in at $500 bucks cheaper for the whole set compared to the 285's. Are 285's going to provide that much more grip to justify $500?!


Thoughts?