FD Brake Ducting and Ti Backing Plates questions
 

Hi all,

Where does one get ducting for directing air to the front brake rotors on an FD? I finally experienced overheating on my AP Racing CP5200 (man, was that ever scary).

On a similar note, I thought I saw a thread somewhere discussing either the merit of or a group purchase of titanium backing plates to reduce heat transfer. Did it get purged in the forum cleanup? Anyone recall who makes them?

Thx.

I know that stoptech makes the ti backing plate not sure if it will work for the AP BBK and lookup damian, I think he made a thread in brake ducting..

here is a link to a sample pic of the brake ducting
http://www.zeckhausen.com/Mazda/RX-7...stallation.htm

HedgeHog,
What I whipped together:
http://www.negative-camber.org/crisp...tedducting.htm

The duct openings in the lip are small and the NTech backing plates are satisfactory and could be much improved but overall IMO a step in the right direction for brake cooling for a street/track car.
HTH,
Crispy

What pads and fluid are you running?

Crispy, fancy making a set for me? ;)

Fish

Yikes! Those are some EXPENSIVE coilovers!

They lighten your wallet.
Lighter wallet = faster.

KaiFD3S: Thx for the Zeckhausen link. Basically what I need but the site mentions custom ducts...but from whom? :(

Crispy: Same thing...thx. I should have ordered the ducts from Duane when I got the IC. But then again, I recall Wael not liking them too much. On your site, where did you source the non-CWR ducts? Those would work. But my problem will be where to duct the air from. My bumper openings are all taken by the VMIC and the twin oil coolers. Mebbe a NACA duct on my undertray...

Rynberg: I've got low end stuff for now...HPS w/ Motul 5.1. Was thinking of getting Ferodo DS2500 for autox/lapping and maybe an extra set of DS3000 for brake killer tracks. Also, planning on flushing system using ATE Super Blue (so I can tell when it's all out). Not ready to spend on Castrol SRF yet (yikes). Any other recommendation?


Here are my symptoms: After 6-8 really aggressive laps, the brakes would just bottom...like all fluid leaked out. Pumping the pedal makes no difference. And it comes on abruptly; that is, it's not like a gradual fade a few corners before hand...it's rock solid then suddenly nothing. I limp back to the pits and check...level still @ Max in reservoir. No drips. Discs aren't blue. BTW, i had to use the e-brake to come to a stop in the pits. Leave car for the rest of the session and by the time my next session arrives, it's all good again. Then it repeats....5-8 hard laps and blam...nothing. So I end up braking lighter but earlier for the last 2 sessions...it still goes soft at about the same lap count. At the end of the day I drive home and it's fine.

Anyone tried the new Hawk DTC stuff? HT-10? I heard blues are scary since they have a narrow operating temp range.

Thx again.

Hedge,
The backing plates for the rotor are N-Tech... the CWR's didn't use dedicated hose. As far as the inlets at the bumper, Crispy's are one-offs. Others (inlcuding the car pictured) use generics as available from BakerPrecision.com or Pegasus, or other race supply places.

I'm doing mine right now, and as Crispy noted, the pic headache is the house routing. I'll post pics when I'm done.

EDIT:
YIKES.. I just read your description of the problem.... sounds like something else is wrong.

N tech's backing plates are now made of aluminum fwiw.

It sounds like your problem is fluid related. Better fluid, titanium backing plates should help a bunch.

I agree something isn't right. I could hammer my brakes with big Hoosier stickies, even with the CWR ducts, with no problems.

I see braking issues as of three kinds. HARD pedal, SOFT pedal, and NO pedal (pedal goes - clunk - to the floor)

A hard pedal is usually pad related - overheating the pad or cooking the rotor which is overheating the pad. What kind of pads are you using? I could also potentailly be a piston getting hung up in the caliper but this is unlikely to occur in all EIGHT bores giving you NO brakes at all.

A soft pedal is almost always fluid related. Boiling fluid pust gas in the line making for a spongy pedal and reduced braking. Boiling fluid comes from heat transmission fromt he pad to the piston through the postion and into the fluid.
Aluminum pistons are excellent conductors of heat therefore pad for brakes - SS is better, titanium is the best. I have SS in mine calipers. Use backing plates - those SS shims. They add a minute air layer between pad and piston which insulates the piston. And of course use good NEW fluid that has been properly bled.

NO pedal is anyones guess. A leak somewhere, a problem with the MC, a problem with the pedal linkages.

FWIW and apologies if this is preaching to the choir.
Crispy

PS good ducting is going to help no matter what

Thx guys...

As posted previous, my pads are Hawk HPS and fluid is Motul 5.1. Brakes are the AP Racing CP5200 13" fronts and stock rears.


So where do I get titanium plates? As I recalled there was a potential group buy but that thread seems to have vanished. :( Does this alter the pad thickness requirement? Eg. a new set of Hawks for the front calls for .654" so when you add the Ti plates to them, does the pads need to be thinner or does one need to mill it down or does it not matter.


The braking problem is a weird one. I just ran a day of autox and it was fine...drove there: fine....ran the event: rock solid....drove home: fine. Checked, no leaks on the group (at home, at the grid spot @ autox, nor at the grid spot @ lapping). Fluid level at MC is at the Max level still...fluid is clean. AARRRRGGHGHHGHG!!!!


Welp, I'm going to swap to newer/better pads and do a full system flush (incl. clutch slave cylinder). Change to Super Blue also....fingers are crossed.


Oh, ducting is always a concern for me....for lapping definitely but for cone chasing: hmmmmm....


Thx again ppl!

Hi Hedgehog,

One thing you should double check is the orientation/direction of your brake rotors. If I am not mistaked your rotors use curved vanes and are therefore directional. Using them backwards can actually be detrimental to the performance and might even lead to an increase in rotor temp which could lead to the fluid fade you are experiencing.

Per Brembo: "A curved vane disc must be installed with the vanes running back from the inside to outside diameters in the direction of rotation."

If you have slotted rotors the slots are usually machined in the opposite direction of the vanes.

BR,
Dennis

I'm just going to be really blunt and state that those pads should NEVER be used on the track, at any skill level. They are completely inadequate for any form of tracking the car and you should swap them out immediately.

I would do this before doing anything else. I'm not sure why you are looking at expensive backing plates when you are still running street pads. I would strongly advise switching from Hawk pads period. I melted a set of HP+ in three sessions.

Yup...will be swapping them out for Ferodo DS2500 (and maybe a spare set of DS3000 for lapping only). I realized the HPS are not good track pads but the symptoms don't make any sense.

Anyhoo, ducting is not expensive when compared with price of race pads for AP calipers.

Thx Dennis,

The rotors are spinning in the right direction. The orientation of the vanes are "flinging" air instead of "scooping" so air is drawn from center out.

HedgeHog,
Rynberg hit the nail on the head. Pads. Those pads are street pads. You MUST use a track pad on the track. The Ferodos 2500's will fail also - they came with my calipers. I got fade after a single lap using the 2500's when i was too lazy to swap pads for only a few laps - big mistake. Pedal went rock hard and the car wouldn't slow down. The 2500s are a street pad also. Stick with a tried and true track pad like a Hawk Blue or a Performance Friction 01 compound.

As for the backing plates - titanium is the best but SS will suffice just fine.
First things first though - get track pads.

HTH,
Crispy

Hedge, NO AMOUNT of ducting, backing plates, big rotors, etc, etc., will allow you to run a street brake pad for track activity. You'd be 100% better off with track pads on stock brakes, unducted, unbacked, than you would be with the full-blown race brake set-up and street pads.

You've got to bite the bullet my friend, or just stick with autocrossing.

Ok, to add to what everyone else has said, with a modified car and good tires those pads are not going to be sufficient. As an example, I started last year with stock brakes and about 300rwhp, and using R-comps I was cooking HT-10 front pads and front rotors every 1.5 hours of track time. Rears were lasting about 6-8 hours of track time. This is with 20-25 minute sessions, and I did have some ducting dumping air off the nose into the rotors. The fluid would be cooked after 5-6 laps in each session (depending on the track - more or less) and the pedal would be very squishy by the end of a weekend. When I wasn't attuned to it, it seemed very sudden. One corner, brakes are fine, next corner, no brakes. As I became more used to it I was able to better predict when it was going to happen, and creep up to the edge. Anyway, it was borderline no longer safe, and I'd have to slow down quite a bit to be careful.

Midway through the year I added in some titanium backing plates, and I no longer boiled the fluid anymore, but a couple additional laps and the pedal would get very hard, without slowing the car! Textbook pad fade from overheating. Definite improvement but I obviously still needed more heat capacity in the front brakes.

Fast-forward to this year and I upgraded to Damian's old 993TT calipers and custom rotors in the front. I had purchased a set of N-Tech aluminum plates, but couldn't use them because they didn't fit the rotors. If you want a set of the N-Tech plates for 13" rotors, I have that set for sale - new and unused. Here's the link: https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=634299

It took alot of work, and more $$$ and time than I wanted, but I'm very happy with the result of the project: (as always, click pics for the full size images)

Here's where the air enters the ducting, just below the oil coolers. This is a 7x3" duct that I got from RacerPartsWholesale with #6 stainless mesh over the top to prevent stuff from getting in. It's bolted to the nose and held tight to the oil lines with zip ties.

http://www.dekoning.net/images/rx7/B...Duct-small.jpg

Here's the routing of the brake duct hose. This is the same 3" silicone hose that Crispy uses I think, again from RacerPartsWholesale. You have to be circuitious here to avoid hitting it when you turn the wheels full lock. I was able to smash the hose into an oval and keep it tight to the wall with zip ties. Also the top part is tied to the a-arm with ties as well. It is fastened on each end with a 3" Breeze stainless constant torque hose clamp.

http://www.dekoning.net/images/rx7/B...ting-small.jpg

Here's the backside where the hose is clamped to the duct. I did roll a bead on the piping so it won't disconnect itself. You can also see that the edge of the duct actually goes inside the lip of the rotor, in this case about 3-4mm. It is flush with the position of the original stock plate so there is a 10mm lip around the edge of the main plate to make this happen.

http://www.dekoning.net/images/rx7/B...side-small.jpg

Here's the duct opening. I'm really proud of this part, it took a while to make and is practically art. :D about 75-80% of the hose area is able to get inside of the 12.67" (322mm) rotors I'm using. You can also see there's a bolt missing here that would normally hold the stock plate on. I modified the spindle and cut the part that normally holds the threads for that bolt to get more room for my opening. This is the main way I was able to make the hose input area so big. I did this because Damian did the same thing for his ducts. :D

http://www.dekoning.net/images/rx7/B...ning-small.jpg

Here's the plates from the back, you can see how closely they fit inside the rotors, I would say not more than 1mm gap at any point around the rotor. You could ask how I was that precise, and I'd have to say that I spent alot of time fitting, sanding, and refitting in the end I let the rotor itself do the final 'clearancing' hahaha. The entire brake duct is sealed except for that small gap, so ALL air is coming from the nose of the car.

http://www.dekoning.net/images/rx7/B...Size-small.jpg

Sorry about the quality on this one, but here's one last pic so you can see the welding work to seal the inside of the duct and the overall shape. The material is 6061-T6 Aluminum in 1/8" thickness. Thickness was chosen because of the removal of the one bolt. With the lip around the edge and the welding this thing is SOLID, and I would say it weighs something like 1-1.5 lbs. Sure would have been nice to go carbon fiber, but cost was prohibitive.

http://www.dekoning.net/images/rx7/B...view-small.jpg

So, results? This setup now with Hawk Blue pads all the way around is capable of braking for 20-30 minute sessions even though I upped the power 10-15% with the pads getting better and better as they warm up. Not once have I had any sort of fade even over 4 days on the track. I also have used less than 1/2 one set of pads. Depending on the outside temp I actually tape off part of the ducts to get the rotors/pads up to operating temp! I'm going to switch pads simply because I don't like the corrosive dust, but that's more of a cosmetic deal.

To answer your original question, I think the thread you are talking about was the one I started last year...

https://www.rx7club.com/group-buy-center-69/titanium-backing-plates-stock-fd-calipers-564700/

However I think you should get proper ducting from the front of the car IN ADDITION to better race pads and titanium shims and you will be good to go. I spent probably twice as much last year on pads and rotors last year because I didn't get the proper setup in the first place, and the brakes were always questionable.

THIS... ladies and gentlemen is how it is done. Period.

Thanks GooGoo.

Crispy

PS I want, not wait...demand.... first right of refusal if you ever decide to part with those backing plates :D

Thanks for the compliment. :D I am happy with the result, even though it wasn't easy to get there.

For people that are less inclined to spend 3 days making these you could do nearly the same things I did without starting from scratch by getting with the N-tech plates. Just get a 5-10mm strip of aluminum and have it welded around the edge (being careful to make sure it fits INSIDE the rotor) and get the input air tube welded 360 degrees. The only fabrication would be to play with a grinding bit on the lip of the opening to smooth it out. I believe Nick can make plates for the stock rotors too.

That way there would be no modification of the spindles and alot less time into making it all fit. The opening wouldn't be quite as large, but it would probably be 80% as effective at 20% of the cost once you consider your time.

Also, I can't take 100% credit for these. This is the culmination of looking at many other people's brake setups, competition setups from the ALMS cars, SpeedGT cars etc etc etc. I had significant help from Damian as well. Thanks to all.

I will let you know if I decide to sell them... but they're really only useful for the custom 322mm rotors, aren't yours a different size? I have to warn you, based on the time I have into them they might as well be made of gold. :D Besides, if you like mine, wait until you see the brake thread damian says he's going to post...

That's a great piece of work, GooRoo! Thx for sharing the pix and info. As recommended by all, I am getting better pads. Given what I participate in, I think 2 sets (at least a different front set) of pads is going to be defacto. I don't get enough heat autoxing so street pads will suffice. And a good set of track pads for lapping with.

I may get your N-Tech ducts and work with them. My concern is the hose clearnance that you've shown (I also run external reservoirs on my dampers so there'll be hoses everywhere) and also where to duct the air from. My GTC bumper openings are all "consumed" by oil coolers and VMIC.

One thing though....without the oem brake dust shield, are you worried about the heat off the rotors damaging the steering tie-rod knuckle? The rubber boot is mightly close.

No problem. Alot of people on the forums have helped me over the last few years.

The hose clearance is tight regardless, sounds like yours might be real tight. You just have to make it work. I replace the duct hose every year because it rubs through on something or other. The gain is worth the effort though.

Not sure where else you can draw air from... NACA ducts underneath drawing air up may work, not sure there. For sure anything will be an improvement, whether it's enough or not you won't know til you're on track. Even if you made something that was like 1" x 8" and then put that right by the wheel under the car that will pickup alot of air. One thing that I emphasize is that the good rotors (Not straight vane ones like stock) are actually air pumps... So even with just a fresh air *source* they will pump that air through and cool themselves. Of course if you can ram air into the pump that makes the flow even higher, but sounds like you might not have a good place for a ram style duct.

The steering tie-rod knuckle boot was already toasted on mine from my stock rotors overheating. Funny thing is even though it's closer there's actually less heat radiating now than before. I do plan on making a small aluminum shield that covers it up when I get a chance and can replace the boot.

I sent N-Tech an email about the plates the other day and still not had a reply. :(

Wonder if they think because I am in the UK, they might not want to deal with me.

Fish

Nope, Nick will get back to you. However, he typically does batch runs for the backing plates as I believe they aren't that cheap to produce as one-off's.

I have the 13" M2 brake kit (AP calipers and Alcon rotors) with Ferodo DS3000 pads up front and '99RZ brakes out back with Hawk Green pads. I don't have ducting but I do the the Ntech backing plates. They never showed any signs of brake fade ever. Those DS3000's do dust quite a bit though and shouldn't be used on the street. They ate up my front street rims with dust I could never get off. (GramLight57Pros)

This is with 505 flywheel hp and driving the car at about 90%. My ABS didn't work and I would get lockup if I mashed them.

Here's my ducting setup. I have the N-tech backing plates and previously ran the ducts to the R1 lip openings. I could never get the two mated acceptably (and do not have a rapid prototype machine) so I changed it to right side ducting from the unused right oil cooler opening - used a standard plastic 3" duct opening, and the left side ducting from a NACA duct incorporated into my custom fabbed undertray. I don't have temp readings but I feel like I'm getting better airflow than with the previous setup.

Here are pictures of my ducts installed with the NTech backing plates, running to the stock R1 lip intakes. I have previously described in another thread how to make the mate pieces for the R1 lip.

I track the car at Thunderhill and Laguna and this has worked so well with the stock calipers and rotors (running Carbotech XP10 pads) that I would recommend anyone with the stock-twin sort of power first duct their stock brakes, and if they still get fade after that, THEN by a BBK. Its a lot cheaper to cool the brakes than it is to make them bigger.

Here is my old option...

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...7/IMGP0944.jpg

and my new option...

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...7/IMGP1738.jpg

WOW...hardcore. Love to see the finished product! Seems the GTC front is quite popular for track junkies. ;)

ok I know its slightly off topic but did anyone notice the adjustable sway bars in the zeckhausen pics? anyone have more info on those?

Why Ti backing plates and not stainless?
 

It just occurred to me that you could make stainless steel backing plates that I think would be just as effective as the Titanium, and cheaper. Stainless and Titanium have almost exactly the same thermal conductivity. See

http://www.matweb.com/search/Specifi...assnum=AMETi00

http://www.matweb.com/search/Specifi...assnum=MQ302AA

Any comments on the preference for Titanium? Note the pistons themselves are usually made of stainless, so it isn't the higher melting point.

I bought the Ti backing plates, and have managed to warp one set (oops, ran out of pad towards the end of one session...). Hence the question.

I agree with your assesment that stainless should work just as well as Ti, and know several other people in the engineering field who do as well. I think the only reason for using Ti is that is has the "wow" factor that helps sell. This is only really an issue with stock calipers, any upgrade should come with stainless pistons.

I agree. I think the SS will get you 95% (pulled that out of you know where) of the way there. I'd go with the SS.
Crispy

This is my next project for the stock brakes. I've cooked my Carbotech XP8's and Hawk HT-10's . . .

:-) neil

My StopTech rotors already looked like the Mohabe desert before I got to VIR this weekend, and though they're worse now, I'm betting the new ducting allowed them to survive a three day track outing when they wouldn't have otherwise.

This is a PITA to install, but I think it's really worth it.

Cool. Make sure to use the orange hose, not the black stuff in the pictures I posted below. The (cheaper) black hose has an inner and outer layer around the spring-wind, and the inner layer can collapse, halting all airflow, while still looking ok from the outside. The orange hose I am currently using is a single layer silicone (so is very flexible).

You also might want to get some temperature sensitive paint and temperature sensitive stickers so you can monitor your temps reliably (a Crispy idea). This is an area where hard data is worth a lot, and I would be very curious to see if your experience is the same as mine.

Since type 302 stainless has a lower thermal conductivity than titanium (16.2 vs. 17 W/m-K), it is almost exactly the other way round (Ti is 95.3% as good as 302).


I looked at the stock backing plates, and judging from the magnetism, the smaller, top plate (the one with the arrow) IS already stainless, while the lower appears to be normal steel.

The stock top plate is about .015" thick, the bottom about .025". Each requires a blank of about 4.25"x2.25". Looking on McMaster-Carr, stock numbers 9014K87 and 9014K83 would let you cut out about 10 of each, or enough for 2.5 cars, for a price of around $25.00.

On the other hand, if you really, really have to have Titanium, then Mcmaster-Carr sells a .020" 12"x12" square of that for $57.79. Note it isn't as thick as the .025" base plate in addition to the slightly higher thermal conductivity, so ends up only being about 76% as good at reducing heat to the pistons as the stainless.

I think you guys are using the wrong numbers, er scratch that, the wrong material. The shims that I have purchased (and sold) are all Titanium alloys that have small percentages of aluminum and vanadium in them. The thermal conductivity is about 6 W/m-K so about 37% of the stainless numbers you quoted. It was a very noticeable difference when I put them in. Basically, with them, little to no fluid fade, even when the pads are totally cooked. Dunno if you could get that from the stainless or not.

Mcmaster lists the Grade 5 (6%Al/4%V) alloy, 9039K16 at $219.60 for a 12"x12" sheet.

You're right, the Grade 5 is a lower thermal conductivity than stainless at 6.7 W/m-K.

http://www.matweb.com/search/Specifi...bassnum=MTP641

Thanks for explaining that.

The backing plates I bought were .020" thick, and McMaster-Carr doesn't sell grade 5 in .020" sheets, but does sell .020" thick pure Titanium (grade 2) sheets. The McMaster Grade 5 you quoted is a sheet .032" thick. So clearly you purchased your Grade 5 from some other vendor....

Correct, I was just getting you a part number to some grade 5. I'd have to check again what the ones that I have are for thickness.

From what I've read (and been told) the thickness really isn't that important, that the transfer of heat from the pad backing plate to the titanium and then from the titanium to the pistons is where the shims help. Obviously they still need some strength, so that is also a consideration.

I think there is one fundamental aspect you guys are forgetting about. It is NOT so much the conductivity of the SS or Ti that has the largest effect, it is the very small air gap that exists as a result of having the plate between the piston and the pad that has the largest effect. Relative to the metals air is an incredible insulator ;)

Crispy

Porsche + FD = Teh Win!!!!

http://thecarspace.com/photos/4/b/a/4ba76ff32604.jpg

Yeah, I think that's what I was trying to say up there. :D

Here is how I understand it:

The transfer of heat from the pad to the fluid runs through a set of thermal resistances in series. If we want to reduce the heat energy transferring to the pistons, we need to increase the thermal resistance of any one of the elements in the sequence pad->pad back->"air"->backing plate->"air"->piston.

The "air" between the piston and the pad is one thermal resistance in the series. We can debate whether it is the "most" important element (I would argue there isn't much air there when the piston is active) but it doesn't matter much since whatever it is, it is there for the stock backing plates as well.

To improve the thermal resistance of any element, you can make it thicker (this does matter - see "L" here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_conductivity) or you can use a material with a lower thermal conductivity, or you can reduce the area (this latter not really being a realistic option for us).

Thermal conductivity (in this case, lower is better):
Steel = 51.9 W/m-K
Stainless = 16.2
Grade 2 (pure) Ti = 17
Grade 5 Ti = 6.7

I'm going to replace my warped Ti plate with some stainless, as it is cheaper and I have yet to boil the fluid anyway.

http://www.awrracing.com/store/produ...products_id=79

Would those fit an FD?

Where's the thermal conductivity of the air? ;)
No two surfaces no matter how smooth are ever in perfect contact. The thermal "resistance"of the air, even when very small, will far outweigh the collective resistance of the metal plate. Hence why I submit the delta between using the Ti and the SS will be of little consequence relative to the simple introduction of an air gap when using a backing plate.

FWIW I never had an issue with fluid boiling when using the stock rotors, with Hawk Blue pads and the OEM backing plate combo. I did however generate enough brake heat to crack every set of rotors I used (drilled, slotted, or OEM, made no matter) long before they were close to being worn out.

Note that the OEM setup uses TWO plates. If this is a consideration simply use two SS plates instead of the single Ti plate. Probably cheaper too. :D
Crispy

I would like to second this. I've never boiled my fluid with this setup either, but have cracked my rotors.

I agree that the simple introduction of a surface (even a surface between two identical materials - simply cutting one of the elements in two, for example) will act as a thermal resistance - this would be true in a vacuum though, and has to do with the efficiency of transmitting molecular vibration (a.k.a. "heat") across the surface vs. through a homogeneous material. I don't agree it is the most significant element, but whatever. The surfaces are all there in all cases, and if we wish to improve things, we must introduce a beneficial difference.

Another thing to consider with the air theory - I think we can agree that the air layer is mighty thin, and the equations governing heat conduction do indicate that the insulating ability of a given layer is proportional to its thickness. Since the thickness of the air layer is vanishingly small, so too is its insulating ability.

Right on about relative importance of fluid boiling vs. rotor cracking. That's how my rotors die, too. Luckily, rotors are relatively cheap! Crispy, I did take your suggestion about putting temperature sensitive stickers on the sides of the calipers to monitor heat generation. This works like a charm - the one time my duct piping collapsed, that sticker starting registering (around 300 deg F on the outside of the caliper) and that rotor starting getting cracks. If memory serves, you once reported getting up to 500 deg F on the outside of the caliper - that's a little past where I would worry about fluid boiling!

Finally, I bought two thicknesses of stainless, so I could replicate both backing plates (and I did use the Ti plate with the stock "arrow" plate). Since the "arrow" plate is angled, I think it must be there to bias piston pressure so as to promote even pad wear. It is too oddly shaped not to have some design reason for its existence. The stainless sheets from McMaster came today in the mail, and I may try my hand at cutting out the backing plates this weekend.

Anyway, I believe we have beaten this topic to death.... on to other things.