TO4B V1/V2 vs. BNR Stage 2
 

I currently have a BNR Stage 2 Hybrid on street ported, fmic, Microtech S5 TII. How does a full TO4B V1/V2 compare to that turbo? I would assume it will spool faster. I don't know the exact trim or any sizes but worse case scenario (smallest trim available or biggest) how much power will the TO4B put down. I made 328rwhp @15lbs with the hybrid and want to remain close to that range. I can't read maps to save my life. Thanks.

to4bs are too small. I had an H3 and i ran it out of breath/ efficiency and the shaft broke. if all you plan to run is 15 lbs get a 60-1 or a 62-1

60-1 is cheap and it works.

thanks guys. That's kinda what I thought. I was afraid it would be on the small side. Unless someone can say otherwise I'll pass on this turbo.

T04B 60-1 .96A/R .70 trim 4" inlet 3" out.

12.5psi 375rwhp. 15psi 408.8rwhp.

Nothing more above 15psi but more power below the rpm range.

I can't comment on the spool time since I have a problem spooling so I may have cooked the turbo or have a boost leak. Other then that I expected more power above 15psi as well.

Ian

uhhh a super-h t04b should easily surpass the 328rwhp he put down with the hybrid; while a true t04b v-trim should at least equal the same power.

If you want to familiarize yourself with different t04b compressor wheels and trim check out turbonetics site:

http://64.225.76.178/catalog/comp_wheels.html

I had always thought the BNR Stg2 uses the V-trim T04B wheel... This wheel should be good for a little over 350rwhp at 20psi on a nice streetport. The next step up is the T04B H-trim, which has a shorter but wider efficiency island up until 15-17psi. However, if you're gonna upgrade, might as well upgrade to the T04B 60-1 and trade a little in spoolup for more power.

maybe you just didnt bother to read what i said?

a to4b is too small for an rx7 in my opinion. im quite familiar with the maps AND the turbos thank you. a 60-1 would be a far better choice than a to4b.

.. this is what happens when you try to run 15 psi through a rotary with a to4b.. you over rev it.

http://countercultured.net/pics/cars...w/IMG_0006.JPG

I'll believe that when I see video of a dyno run.

Really. Coming from a guy who thinks a T04B and a 60-1 is two different turbos.

Go to the turbonetics web site. And yes I have dyno sheets. Yes I have video. Plus there was 15guys at the dyno that day. And yes it was tuned by Steve kan..

Do you want proof!

I know someone that made great power with a T04B housing milled out for a 62-1 compressor wheel. Worked like a champ and I believe made over 400rw on pump gas.

He thinks that cause to4B and 60-1 arent the same thing. You can get tons of compressor wheels in a T04B housing. More than likely you just had some small ass compressor wheel in yours.

If you want more information look here at how many wheels there are in T04B housings.....

http://www.turbofast.com.au/FlowTO4B.html

Ok. Maybe there is different turbos out there that are labled as T04B and a separate turbo as an 60-1
Ian

to4b is a cover, there are various different compressors that can be used.

this peashooter is an h3 to4b. it is a lower pressure/higher flow turbo than the v1/v2 this thread was started about.

if your turbo is using a 60-1 compressor and you have a 4" inlet and 2.5" outlet, that is not a to4b.


http://countercultured.net/pics/cars...b/IMG_2207.JPG

p.s. this is a map re: the to4b this thread was started asking about.

http://64.225.76.178/catalog/compmaps/Fig7.gif

this is the map of a 60-1 .. maybe you notice a slight difference?
http://64.225.76.178/catalog/compmaps/Fig9.gif

TURBONETICS makes a T04B 60-1 (part number 20177). The housing has a 4" inlet and a 2.5" discharge. (They also have a HiFi version with a 2.75"/2"). Comes with 60-1 compressor wheel, 2.324" inducer/ 3.000" exducer.

Its not a small turbo, the compressor housing is about 8" wide.

I was also present at the dyno when Steve Kan tuned Ian's car, and it made over 400 whp. Just plagued by lag problems.

TO4B STANDARD
SHAFT
S 20330 $112.00 1.904" 2.750" 20202 $121.00 2.750"
SUPER-S 20394 160.00 1.904" 3.000" 20202 121.00 2.750"
T5/6 20345 112.00 2.032" 2.750" 20346 123.00 2.750"
V 20325 112.00 2.180" 2.750" 20203 121.00 2.750"
SUPER-V 20364 150.00 2.180" 3.000" 20203 121.00 2.750"
H 20235 112.00 2.298" 2.750" 20192 112.00 2.750"
SUPER-H 20288 160.00 2.298" 3.000" 20192 160.00 2.750"
60-1 HI-FI 20230 160.00 2.324" 3.000" 20210 156.00 2.750"
60-1 20177 150.00 2.324" 3.000" 20190 357.00 4.000"
62-1 20255 235.00 2.441" 3.000" 20249 421.00 4.000"

[QUOTE=nyt]to4b is a cover, there are various different compressors that can be used.

this peashooter is an h3 to4b. it is a lower pressure/higher flow turbo than the v1/v2 this thread was started about.

if your turbo is using a 60-1 compressor and you have a 4" inlet and 2.5" outlet, that is not a to4b.



Well I'm not sure then. I'm basically a noob.

All I know is that my Turbonetics turbo is a T04B 60-1. It obvious you have more experience in turbo's then me.

Really I wouldn't know any different to what they sent me other then what's written on the bill.

Ian

oh wow and they actually make 4" inlet, 3" outlet for a 60-1 compressor part # 20177 .. ill be damned... i've never seen one of those before.

yeah thats definitely possible to make that power with.. but is still nothing like the to4b triangle power was asking about

Yup. Notice a difference even thought I cannot read it. LOL

I'm not sure what a V1/V2 is. Never seen that before. What manufactor supplies these particular turbos?

I'll definitely eat my words on this one. thats good power for 15 psi, street port? your to4b is a lot different than the one he was asking about tho..

Yes, Turbonetics naming convention is a little strange. Normally everyone else calls the a T04S.

IAN from now on tell people you have a T04S :D

Turbonetics also make a 62-1 wheel with a T04B housing as well...

yeah they all have weirdass naming conventions... the turbo he was talking about was what I'm used to calling a to4s. garret does some weird shit too.. ie gt-40 50 trim, is smaller than a gt35r ... crap like that is annoying and they need to do without it....

I'm actually about to change to a pt61 (to4s cover, gt35r wheel) from the gt-40 to flow more.. go figure.

and as for triangle power, get at least a 60-1... if you plan to run more boost than 15, and dont want to spring for the ball bearing gt35r, checkout the pt61, or the pt63

The 60-1 in it's full name is a T04B 60-1. Calling it just a T04B could mean any of the T04B wheels. If you're not gonna call it the full "T04B 60-1", then just call the turbo a "60-1" or a "T04S" as to not confuse people (T04S is just what they call the compressor housing).

?????


The t04b is perfectly sized for a 13bt. Like it's already been mentioned then 60-1 is probably one of the most popular aftermarket turbos for the FC. The v-trim and h-trim t04b turbos are no peashooters by any stretch of the imagination. The stock ht-18 however IS a pea shoooter.

T04B H-trim is about the same size as the GT40 50-trim nyt was selling (although the GT40 has a taller efficiency).

Really, no need to get all nasty on this topic... :)

A "full" T04B V-trim will make slightly more power than a V-trim hybrid.
This is due to the free-flowing turbine section - full T04B turbine versus the stock Hitachi turbine.
The V-trim should do 300hp - 350hp easily.

For some odd reason, Turbonetics calls it's "60-1" a "T04B".
Almost any other turbo shop will call the 60-1 a "T04E".
I admit, the 4" inlet is a good reason to call the 60-1 a T04E.


-Ted

the v trim and h3 trims ARE peashooters, that wheel was from a h3 trim. it couldnt flow more than 13 psi up top. a 60-1 is a great turbo, again, READ THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD, he was asking about a to4b v1/v2

just as a reference, 50 trim gt-40 drops down to 17 psi in 4th gear from compressor choke, a to4b h3 dropped down to 12-13 psi.

I made 427rwhp@17psi on the gt-40.. the to4b h3 broke within a few days from being overrevved

Thanks guys. I've given up on V1/V2. Too small, and totally agree the 60-1 is a better sized choice. What are your thoughts on manifolds? Should I strive for a certain inlet/outlet size as well? Goal is the easiest (on the motor and turbo) 350rwhp. 15lbs max boost.

a 60-1 should make more than 350 @ 15 psi =] its a nice setup

I have a to4b s/v front side and stock backside...don't know hp #'s but 12.7sec 1/4 at 3000ft (so low 12's near sealevel).
I could make 17 psi @ 4k but only 7 Psi by 7k.

just got a full to4b s/v (.96 back side)....hope for some good gains up top when installed(yea-external wastegate).

[QUOTE=Triangle Power]I currently have a BNR Stage 2 Hybrid on street ported, fmic, Microtech S5 TII. How does a full TO4B V1/V2 compare to that turbo? I would assume it will spool faster. I don't know the exact trim or any sizes but worse case scenario (smallest trim available or biggest) how much power will the TO4B put down. I made 328rwhp @15lbs with the hybrid and want to remain


Street port, BNR stage 2, 15PSI boost, and only 328 RWHP, I hope that is also with a cat and not with DP-MP-CatBack.

Chuck, I believe he is talking about a 2nd gen car. The BNR stage 2 hybrid upgrade for a 2nd gen is good for mid 300's or something along those lines.

I was wondering why the power was so low for the mods.

to4b v trim 355rwhp @14psi.

60-1 on my n/a 10 psi havent dyno'd it yet but if im not careful I can loose al of my rear traction going into sec. and bark the hell out of them going into third.

I'd like to see the dyno sheet.

Just an update since I received a few messages about this thread. Now May of 2005, I still have the same turbo, BNR Stage 2, 4x 720cc injectors, Microtech LTX12, ND high flow fuel pump, etc. Only thing I did over the winter was change the exhaust from the 2.5in bonez dp, 2.5in racing beat silencer and Apexi N1's duals out. I replaced that exhaust with the racing beat full 3in turbo exhaust.

A beautiful "QUIET" exhaust. Night and day difference on volume compared to old setup. I had it dyno'd, we did 3rd gear runs, repeat 3rd gear runs. It put down 312 rwhp in 3rd gear. 15lbs boost. I suffered a couple missfires, one around 5800 prms and again near 6500rpms. These robbed me of a couple rwhp. Different spark plug wires will clear this up. So figure maybe around 315-318rwhp in 3rd gear. No clue what max power would be in 4th gear now but for simplicity and fun factor this works nicely. Guessing around 335-340rwhp ?

Back From the Dead.

My hyrbid turbo recently starting spitting oil into my intake. I have measured it to be a to4b w/ a t5/6 54trim compressor wheel. It put down 223RWHP at 7-9 psi. I'm thinking I'll have it rebuilt/balanced at this place http://www.turbochargersystems.com/

Looking for a little more power, 300-350, will a 60-1 wheel work with my to4b housing? or are there any other wheels or mods that I should consider? H-trim, 60-1 hifi???

I might rebuild it and order a new wheel myself and just have them balance it.

What in the world is a "t5/6 comparator wheel"? Measurements on the inducer/exducer ?

I've been looking into building a hybrid since I got a good deal on a to4b u-trim (54mm - 70mm) w/ a p-trim turbine wheel. Since the comp wheel was chewed up (and too small anyway) I figured I'd have the compressor machined for a 60-1 (59mm - 76mm) wheel basically making it a bnr stage 3. It should easily be capable of 350whp. My only concern was lag...

Complaints about the lag of the bnr stage 4 seem to be pretty universal, and the only difference between it and the stage 3 is the clipped stock turbine in the stage 3 vs the clipped p-trim in the hogged out housing in the stage 4.

Not a comparator, compressor.
Ind=2.032" Ex=2.750" 54 Trim

I have a to4b .60 AR housing on a s5 Stock hotside.
I need to get a to4b 60-1 wheel with an exducer of 2.75(70mm) right?

Using Howard Coleman's "turbo comparison" thread
https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo-rx-7s-23/turbo-comparison-includes-new-2023-garrett-gbc-bw-sx-r-turbos-post-one-869614/
I found the ratios of avg turbine area to avg compressor area for some prospective turbo setups:

Stock: compressor - 3.579 turbine - 4.288 ratio = 119%
T04b v-trim: compressor - 4.841 turbine - 4.288 ratio = 89%
T04b h-trim: compressor - 5.056 turbine - 4.288 ratio = 85%
60-1 (stg 3) : compressor - 5.651 turbine - 4.288 ratio = 76%
60-1 (stg 4) : compressor - 5.651 turbine < 5.891 ratio < 104%
Full 60-1 : compressor - 5.651 turbine - 5.891 ratio = 104%

Notice the "less than" for the stage 4, this is because the wheel is clipped, thus reducing the turbine wheel area, the reduction would depend on the degree of the clip.

Even w/that factored in one would think that it would take a pretty significant clip to drop the stage 4 low enough so it would be laggy compared to the v or h trim hybrids. The only thing I can come up w/ is that the greater weight of the p-trim wheel contributes significantly to the slower spool.

..yeah, compressor-- dammed predictive text...
That's even smaller than the u trim (54mm ind.) Even still it should be enough for close to 300whp if you push it; you'll be hard pressed to hit 300-350whp on any hybrid @ 7-9 psi, :lol:. A larger wheel would make it easier though.

My understanding us that the 60-1 wheel is 59mm (2.323") inducer -- 76.2mm (3.0") exducer , thus making it significantly larger and more capable than the t04b wheels. That means you would need to have your cover machined to accept the 60-1 wheel (or any larger wheel for that matter)

I'm not looking to make 300-350 at 7-9 psi that's where I made 223rwhp. I'm limited to around 15psi with the RTEK.

Been looking at the 60-1 hi-fi. Is the HT-18 a big shaft? I'm still researching...

Thanks

Did you ever get a chance to actually boost w/your hybrid? (glad you kept your car btw).

Both the v-trim and the h-trim will get you over 300whp under 15psi. I believe someone has actually hit 361whp on a knightsports hybrid (which seems to be spec'd similar to an h-trim) but I don't recall what ecu or psi.

You do not want the big shaft wheel. The ht-18 is standard shaft.

Hi-fi or not isn't that crucial on a hybrid, your only operating at a percentage of its original efficiency anyway. If its a minimal price difference go for the hi-fi, but is not worth paying significantly more.

two observations, the first is that the stock compressor is SMALL, the V trim is a good match, because its a good size for a moderate street engine, but its also a good fit with the stock turbine still.

the lag comes from 3 places. bigger compressor, duh, bigger turbine wheel, duh, but its also the housing that starts to be the restriction, vs a full T4, which runs the same wheels, but isn't laggy.

in a sense the hybrid turbo is a balancing act between keeping a "stock" package, but making more power without adding too much lag. kinghtsports spent a lot of time looking for wheels, and they picked a small one, but it works really well in the combination.

All good points.

I was actually reconsidering the 60-1 wheel for exactly that reason. Apparently the knightsports turbo is good for over 350whp/300ft lbs and that's all I'm looking for. I doubt the lag of the 60-1 would be worth it for the extra 20 or so hp it would yield up top.

Unfortunately h-trim wheels aren't exactly easy to come by and I'll still need to have my housing machined.

Well My existing 54 trim wheel measured 2.032 & 2.754. Will a 60-1 hi-fi wheel fit in my compressor housing? Will the backing plate need to be machined? I've been searching, but this to4b 60-1 hi-fi is alluding me...

60-1 Hi-Fi Trim 2.324" Inducer Diameter 3.00" Major Diameter <--I don't think this will fit compared to my existing compressor?

Maybe just go with a to4b H-trim.
409826-0015, 70(2.75")x58.40(2.30"), 70 trim, H trim
Not sure that will fit either?

Will take some more measurements tonight. Seems like the wheel, housing, and backing plate all have to match?

Any and all information is greatly appreciated!

yes, the housing and backplate need to be be as close to the wheel as possible without touching. since the backplate seals the flat side of the wheel, each one might work with a couple different wheels, but IDK.

it IS possible to machine the housing and backplate for a bigger wheel, to a point. so some of the hybrids are V or H wheels in machined stock housings