This is 2doritos roomate. There will be no problem getting the bottles filled, but thanks for the concern. Tight wad? Yes, maybe we do not want to pay $200 more than we can get it for. DR did not by any means invent the idea of propane injection. As I said the idea was brought up by a supra friend of ours(who is a mechanical engineer) quite a while ago. It was DR's idea to produce and market the kit, and since we have no plans to market our own, we are not stealing your idea. Troll? Sorry, we have posted nothing but productive info on this forum.

Ken, I would use propane in conjunction with water injection. The steaming affect of water will help reduce hot spots in the combustion chamber. I don't know how propane reacts in situations like that, so I will be cautious and use both.

www.welshtec.com

Please check this site. Tons of good info and we can get the Federal Government to help pay for our propane injection systems. Also 16 states have incentive programs for these too.

Ken

Thanks for the link Ken.

I think this propane injection is important enough to be discussed in other threads, not just single turbo. Maybe Jason can get a group buy going. I think it's going to be BIG for all of us.

Ken

http://www.welshtec.com/page0010.html

Check this out, it looks like a better product. I e-mailed them. Maybe we can get a group buy going. Bigger tanks(3 and 5 gallon) and fill up from your normal place. Just pull up and fill, no taking a small tank out.

Ken, 57 years young
'94 white, base, pep, red leather,
mods: street port & polished stage II, 3 mm Hurley racing seals, upgraded coolant seals,
AEM ECU,
XS T04e single turbo kit,
SMIC (400+cu.in.),
Aquamist 2s water injection kit,
Propane Injection Kit,
Pettit ss resonated MP,
Pettit ss cat-back,
RP Racing fuel pump,
1600cc injectors,
Profec B(15&20+psi),
3-bar Map Sensor,
Centerforce clutch,
under pulley kit(no air pump),
Pettit short shifter kit,
boost gauge,
LaBreck's bushings,
Evans Coolant
http://nopistons.com/luv94rx7.html

ok i know i dont belong in this forum...but what about non turbo guys. anyone know how well a propane setup would work with real world experience?

was wondering if anyone had got the kit installed on a FD yet? and if there were any problems.

wondering how this will affect the turbos? and how long will a tank last filled?

would you have to run hotter plugs to avoid misfiring due to the increased richness? or is that a stupid question?

I think making the gap smaller will help that as well.

This from Welsh Technologies.

Ken

"Ken:

Thanks for your reference of Dynamic Racing Products propane injection. It is
always interesting to find people infringing on our patented technology. It
seems from review that these guys are selling a product to inject a unregulated
and untreated amount of propane into a engine to increase engine power.
Unfortunately these guys have failed to realize there is alot more then just
dumping propane into a engine. First, propane on-board a vehicle must be handled
safely and in accordance with N.F.P.A. #58, the code requirement for vehicle
alternate fuel use. Federal law, Clean Air Act of 1990 and its anti-tampering
provision prohibits this use and the vehicle owner can face fines of up to
$25,000.00 not to mention violation of violation of law, voiding of vehicle
warranties, and insurance coverage. We do not authorize this use of our patented
technology and to do take any responsibility for the danergous, unsafe,
un-lawful, and code violations, nor any damages that may occur by use of these
products.

Welsh Technologies has developed, researched, engineered, and patented
Multi-Fuel Technology to enable vehicles to utilize a measured quantity of
propane fuel to enhance engine combustion efficiency. Our products are listed
with The US Department of Energy and allow equipped vehicles to be classified as
alternate fuel vehicles, thus enabling them to take federal tax deductions and
several state tax credits. All of our products are engineered and manufactured
in excess of N.F.P.A. #58 code regulations and are fully lawful on any vehicle.
Our products are engineered so equipping a vehicle a vehicle with them does not
violate engine and vehicle warranties nor violate the federal anti-tampering
laws. And with all of that we can offer a Multi-Fuel System for $275.00. Those
guys are really ripping off those they con.

Our technology was developed to reduced vehicle emissions by utilizing the
propane or other gaseous fuels as a catalyst to enhance combustion efficiency.
Simply, The Multi-Fuel System allows your engine to burn the fuel in your engine
and receive the benefits of that fuel instead of throwing out the tailpipe as
harmful exhaust emissions. With the increased combustion efficiency there is a
increase in engine performance, low end torque. The propane needs to treated and
precisely injected into the engine as our products do. If the propane is not
treated and precisely injected there will be increased problems for the engine.
If to much propane is dumped in the engine will use the propane as fuel and
since propane has less energy content then gasoline much more fuel will be used
and the exhaust emissions will be increased greatly. Also there will be hotter
combustion temperatures, drying out of gaskets, and needless engine wear. What
Dynamic Racing is doing is dumping propane into a engine to cause a 'WOT'
condition to increase power, but at the cost of the engine; and done in a very
unsafe manner.

We will pass Dynamic Racing reference along to the N.F.P.A., DOE, DOT, and our
legal department. Besides their stealing of our patent rights I am very
concerned about the safety issues and the bad name their products can give our
technology. If their going to steal you would think they would think they would
do better then this.

I hope you will look at our Multi-Fuel System and what it can do for your
vehicle.

Jonathan W. Welsh
President
WELSH TECHNOLOGIES, INC.Thank you for your inquiry into Welsh Technologies products. We are a
> manufacture of vehicle alternate system for close to two decades now.
>
> We offer several systems that can equip any vehicle. We have just
> introduced a economical system for the passenger car and SUV market.
> We have brochures that I would be honored to send to you if you
> forward me your mail address. Unfortunately our web site has been
> updated yet to reflect this product.
>
> Our new system is The Mizer-MFS, it is a multi-step "dual system" of
> our patented Multi-Fuel System. This product has been designed
> specially for the passenger and SUV vehicles and as a do-it-yourself
> system, a step by step installation manual is included. The cost of
> the system $275.00, excluding a tank for the storage of propane fuel.
> The Mizer-MFS has been designed so one of our LPG Safety Reservoir or
> Reservoir With-In Reservoir can be used for the propane fuel storage
> or any vehicle propane tank, or even a barbecue cylinder. The brochure
> will explain in greater detail the system.
>
> Briefly The Mizer-MFS is a means to allow your vehicle's engine to
> achieve its maximum combustion efficiency. Engines are only so
> efficient at the consumption of fuel into power; upwards of 40% of
> unconsumed gasoline is dumped into the atmosphere as harmful exhaust
> emissions or fruitlessly burned in the catalytic converter. The
> Mizer-MFS utilizes propane fuel in a multi-step process as a catalyst
> to efficiently maximize the engine's combustion of gasoline; by
> vaporizing, volatilizing, increased combustion ignition, and increased
> flame spread of the gasoline within the engine.
>
> The Mizer-MFS is the efficient means to achieve the mileage and
> performance that your vehicle is capable of. Dramatic mileage increase
> of 25% to 40% or more can be achieved; and since The Mizer-MFS
> patented and patent pending process allows the engine to achieve
> increased combustion the engine's torque power is increased; and the
> exhaust emissions are dramatically reduced.
>
> The Mizer-MFS allows your vehicle to be qualified as a alternate fuel
> vehicle under The Clean Air Act federal legislation and you deduct the
> cost of the system from your federal taxes and several states allows
> deducts or credits on state taxes.
>
> The Mizer-MFS is ideal for your vehicle. Please let me know if can
> send you a brochure or if you have any questions.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Jonathan W. Welsh
> President
> WELSH TECHNOLOGIES, INC.
> Box 4214, River Edge, NJ 07661
> 800-69WELSH
> 201/489.3465
> Fax: 201/489.3110
> Email: welshtec@idt.net
> www.welshtec.com"

Busted! :hah:

OMG!
Luv94rx7 I dont where to begin other than, that is very fuking gay!
The welsh kit is not going to do me a damn thing! I have no interest in that bullshit. So now Dynamic Racing is going to get fucked and I wont get my kit.

Excuse my french, but im not happy at the moment!

Ken,

I have a big problem with what Welsh is trying to say in this email/letter.

First and foremost, Propane Injection has been around for a very long time. Many people have been using it for decades..


Primarily, they have been used in Diesel engines -- Search the net and you will find HUNDREDS of companies doing the exact same thing as Dynamic Racing is -- I doubt Welsh was the first one to "pioneer" this technology -- Secondly, do they have a list of Patents on their website that have supposedly been "violated" -- If so, I'd love to see them so I can dig up prior art and make those patents null and void.

The threat of "patents" to try and hamper competition is truly low. That is beside the fact that some of the statements made by Welsh borderline on libel.

(NOS has a patent on their NOS technology... does that mean that Zex, NX, Edelbrock, TNT, etc are all violating their patents?)

This kit, like almost any other aftermarket part you buy is not certified for use on public streets or highways. Just like a nitrous kit is, a downpipe, aftermarket ECU's and fuel controllers, some exhaust systems, and a million other devices I could name off the top of my head.

The kit never claimed to be. When you purchase (online) and receive the kit, you will get numerous statements stating such. The kit is intended for Off Road Use Only.

The kit that Welsh sells is not even in direct competition with the DR kit, as it is intended for a totally seperate market.

I also find it quite funny how the Welsh kit magically makes your motor last longer, produce more power, and has no downsides whatsoever.

However, without ever seeing or testing the DR kit, Welsh claims, and I quote:

"What Dynamic Racing is doing is dumping propane into a engine to cause a 'WOT' condition to increase power, but at the cost of the engine; and done in a very
unsafe manner. "

The DR kit doesnt simply dump fuel It is metered. It is metered using the exact same technology that all the nitrous manufacturers use to meter nitrous. Which, again, has been around long before Welsh Technologies. As stated, the claims made by Welsh have no basis, and are completely unfounded, and borderline on libel.

The fact that Welsh claims that DR simply "dumps" fuel shows how little they understand about the kit itself, and the technologies that make it work.

The DR kit includes a number of items that activate when the propane comes on, how you meter it, adjust it, increase/decrease flow, etc. The above items are what allows you fine control over the propane injection. This also happens to raise the price of the kit.

As mentioned, some of the statements Welsh has made here borderline on libel, and I will definetly forward these to Dynamic to see if they wish to pursue legal actions... Some interesting quotes:

"Those guys are really ripping off those they con."

"If their going to steal you would think they would think they would do better then this."

I also believe that Welshtec is receiving government credits which help subsidize the price of their product...

I wanted to post a link to some diesel sites that sell the kit as well:

http://www.dieselperformanceproducts.com/faq.html

The price of the kit is $545 --- and it doesnt come with a tank.

They have been selling them for a very long time, and their FAQ page is a good read:

Some choice quotes from their page:

"Why Propane?

The idea of injecting propane as a secondary fuel in turbo diesel engines has been widely used for many years and is not a new idea."

and:

"What kind of a tank do I need?

A securely mounted DOT approved certified propane tank, available at most RV and propane dealers, at least 25% of your vehicle fuel capacity."

Another site that sells them for $549 without the tank:

http://www.dieselsite.com/propane/propane.htm

and another, same price, no tank...

http://www.wjsperformance.com/

Another kit, $699 and up, no bottle...

http://www.bullydog.com/ford/index.html

I dont believe the Welsh comes with a tank either for that quoted $275 price...

I talked to the President of Welsh Technologies for about an hour. He's sending me everything in the mail and I'll report back when I get it. He has group buys. This system will burn all your fuel thus increasing MPG, power goes way up, especially low end torque(we need that for our rotaries), you'll pass emmisions, car will run much cooler, less oil changes, raises octane rating. He has a new 6 gallon tank that lists for $300.
He has it on his Corvette and it went from 275 miles a tank of gas to 350 miles on a tank of gas and a lot more power. He'll send me the stuff today and hopefully I'll get it Monday and I'll report back everything I am able.

Ken

Ken,

I hope the kit works out for you. For an N/A motor, it sounds like its a better system for what you are looking for. However, it doesnt look like it was intended for a boosted application. It is not boost activated, it is on all the time.

I personally would have a difficult time handing my money over to a person who represents their business in the fashion that Welsh has done above. The claims he makes and the pot shots he took at DR are just unecessary and uncalled for.

Coming from a computer background as well, where the Industry likes to use "patents" as a tool to thwart competition. I find this particular threat quite low, especially with how laughable the claims are when comparing the DR kit to the Welsh kit.

Like I said before, I learned a lot in speaking with this guy for an hour. He's been in this field for 20 years. Told me all kinds of real world stories that were amazing. For people that can't pass emmisions this does the trick. The way they do it they don't just dump propane, they use it as a catalyst to burn all the fuel. Very technical. He says don't need catalytic converter. One story was a fellow had a high performance car on NJ and it was overheating there. He moved to AZ and installed their system because he knew it helped cooling. Once he got to AZ with it he went thru a summer there with no cooling problems. As we all know our cars run hot and this alone is BIG. EGT are way down. It's hard to document everything I learned in one hour. Like I said before when I get all the info in the mail next week I will document it and post it for you all.

Ken

Ken, As mentioned before, the DR kit does not simply "dump" fuel either. It uses a precise "jet" to meter the fuel, and a NOS fogger to atomize properly (which really isnt needed since propane comes out as a vapor) --- Are you saying, or is he claiming, that his special way of "injecting" propane will "make" his propane a catalyst, and the DR "stupid" way of doing it will somehow make it NOT be a catalyst?

I'm confused.

I received this e-mail from the President of Welsh Technologies. Appartently Matt from Dynamic Racing has been having e-mail battles all day with him. I guess I really started something this time.

"Hi Ken,

Wow you started a major email session with Matt Monett of Dyamic Racing. It seems he feels he has the right to "steal as he feels right". What a character!. My
concern now is the safety of things he is selling. He never heard on N.F.P.A. code requirements or federal anti-tampering provisions. He really scares me. This industry, the alternate fuel industry (propane) does not want unsafe products out there to cause us a bad name. I have spent over two decades promoting the use of propane as a fuel and one bad indicent from this guy and its bad for everyone, not to mention just criminal.

There is alot of dis information going on by this guy. First propane is a gaseous fuel that under a slight pressure goes into a liquid. Yes it does vaporize at release, but if not controlled it causes freeze up and unstable fuel delivery. Propane can not just be released and dumped into a engine. It needs to be treated to ensure dry vaporized gaseous supply of the propane fuel. We treat it through patented means, the propane industry utilizes a vaporizer. I can not believe how unsafe and the potential for engine damage this guys products have.

Propane is a great fuel, but it must be safely stored and handled. Not to mention there are minimum code requirements for any use of propane fuel on a vehicle.

I am really concern now about this guy for safety and engine concerns, not to mention his stealing of my technology. The propane industry does not need nor
wants guys that danger people, its bad for everyone."

Ken

LUV you loving this ant you

Ok
Lets get one thing straight that you do not GET AT ALL!
If you want to increase your MPG and lower you pollutants then by all means use welsh's kit
which was "specific" in this use.. OK!

The DR kit IS FOR HIGH PERFORMANCE/RACING APPLICATIONS DAMMMMMMMMMMMMMIT :mad:

It is not "dumped" into the god damm intake
I guess you dont have a f'ing clue as to how NOS systems are used

IT USES NOS Jets to finely jet/control propane into the intake
and uses a fogger to further intomize the delivery

as for safety? How long has NOS been used
a LONG TIME
all the NOS products fogger/jets/lines etc
have been tested and certified

only the propane tank (which is certified BTW) is used
as a re-placement in the otherwise NOS kit

I know how NOS works. I'm not the one you should be angry with. I'm only reporting what I was told. I'm not taking anyone's side I'm just a reporter here trying to get the facts. I want the best for our RX-7s and if a spirited debate gets at the truth isn't that what we all want? THE TRUTH.

Ken

You know what, F*ck your truth! I will give you the truth, I dont give a rats @ss about "cleaner emissions" Im not going to pass the visual so what does it matter?
What I do care about is, much lower intake temps, increased octane, less rick of detonation, and most important cranking up the BOOST! I only need this at WOT. I want my damn kit, and I did receive a call tonight from Matt (who is cool as hell) and guess what! Sh!ts all f^cked up! If you want something to report, try this one. F^CK YOU!

Once again unless your name is LUV94RX7 please excuse my french.

Ok im done with this thread.
If anybody is interested in how my setup works (other then Ken) please stay in touch.

Good night!

Mods please excuse my posts.