IGN1A coils vs OEM FD( back to back single turbo)
 

This is customer supplied information. NGK r7420 11.5 plugs on both pulls, zero other changes( same dyno ). OEM FD coils broke up, and the IGN1A obviously did not. This was on PFC so both are in wasted spark. It runs our TDX61 system @ 14psi with AI. I have only seen one other dyno that was very similar. I figured a few might want to see this...

I am guessing these are old FD coils vrs. brand new IGN1A coils.

Or is this FD new OEM coils vrs. IGN1A new coils?

the picture quality sucks.....cant see the numbers :(

they are a decent upgrade

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1430223005

Not really adding much of importance here... But on the stock coils, was that the stockers with the HKS Twin Power (which is the pretty standard setup I'd think) or JUST stock coils?

stock coils, stock igniter. ive never tested twin power, but the FD coil is saturated at 4ms on the stock ignitor, so HKS twin power would likely only improve high RPM where CDI kicks in

Why would you test new FD Coils when 90% of cars will have 20 year old coils.

Great test. Great reason to upgrade.

Because you can still buy OEM coils and comparing apples to apples (this isn't) is how a person can make truly informed decisions.

Your an idiot if you waste any money on OEM FD coils.

Valley,
The oem coils are not setup to run direct fire. So unless you plan on running wasted spark, they won't work.

Plus, I highly doubt even new coils would perform as good as the IGN-1a

While I may agree, there is no reason to state it this way. This is supposed to be a forum of auto enthusiasts. Instead of berating, try giving a useful response please.

Yes. You could buy OEM ones. Or look at different one made by Mercury (or maybe someone else, who knows with all of the rebadging going on) One that has the flexibility to be ran however you want it to, smaller and more flexible in mounting locations. ANd puts out plenty of power with minimal dwell.

This is from a different thread:


Link to thread:
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...992444/page10/

And to run them you still have to modify things. This is important to some people. Although, it is nice to know they can be run with the stock ecu. Again, the comparisons are not new vs. new that I've seen so it appears pretty pointless to say "wow, this coil is so great, it did X" when in reality not having a worn coil would do X just as well.

In reality, you can't say that a new coil would do X just as well. Using your own logic of course.

Considering I have seen (with my own beady little eyes) a 20k mile ignition setup be improved upon with these coils. So I would say that is proof enough for me that these coils are better than the oem ones. Symptoms described were the same as above. smoother idle. no break up at higher rpm. Only change was coils.

If you are not looking to modify anything but want more power, you are in for a wake up call. Going back to brand new stock everything will only get you the power levels of a brand new stock vehicle. Unless that is your goal, there are far better and more effective ways to free up some ponies.

Of course, and you can't say it wouldn't either, because you don't know. What I've seen with my own eyes is that with a proper heat range plug, the ignition system is almost never the problem unless it's on its way out. In which case, of course changing to ANYTHING not broken is going to improve the situation.

If you think OEM ignition systems are only adequate for stock power levels, you are in for a wake up call, and I wonder how all those cars, with higher than stock power levels fixed all their problems with new OEM replacement and not this upgrade.

But hey, you seem to think if you don't have an ignition upgrade you're stuck at stock power levels. There are far better and effective ways to free up some ponies, the ignition system is almost never it, assuming of course that it's working properly.

Agreed. Except I have seen high boost applications or large amounts of water injection where the stock system was not sufficient.

You're putting words in my mouth. Go back and read what you've typed in previous posts. I never once stated that OEM is only good for OEM levels. You are the one that stated you don't want to 'change things' and I took that as not wanting to run anything other than OEM.

Again, I never said that. I have only stated that there are situations where the stock system is not ideal. And if you wish to run direct fire, then swapping out is your option.

I also never said the ignition system would be a primary modification to 'free up some ponies' but nice attempt at using my own words against me. Ignition is secondary. If the combustion chamber conditions are not being utilized effectively by your current ignition, then you have a choice to make. I would look at common failure points first. After the easy/cheap items are eliminated, then I would look at upgrading.


But anyways, enough banter on this. Stock has its place. If you are running wasted spark, chances are, it will be sufficient for most applications. Direct Fire, not going to be using stock.

And I've seen them were stock was. And I've seen them where broken stock wasn't and new stock was.

For some one complaining about words being put in their mouth you sure seem to not know what is coming out of your own.

If you want to play the "go back and read..." game, do it yourself. Post 2 of this thread. The OP of this thread can be summed up as, "this worn/broken part is worse than this brand new part". Is anyone really surprised? Hence, post 2.

:lol:
So brand new stock everything (read as the word meaning all parts, as in whole car, as in zero aftermarket) would not be the power of a brand new stock fd?:scratch::lol:

I'm done with you. Enjoy your 'getting the last word' bs combined with made up scenarios of arguing semantics and topic change.

I have already agreed with you that the comparison was not a true brand new stock coil. I have agreed that stock coils will do fine for most situations unless one wishes to run direct fire. I have already agreed with you on many things. And yet you want to single me one and keep trying to twist words. You last post was just foolish.

Now drop it.

I knew you'd say this. I can't help but wonder why you even bring it up in a thread about modified cars. After saying you need an aftermarket ignition because your car is modified. Or are you dumb enough to be claiming that a well functioning OEM ignition system isn't even adequate for a 100% stock car? Your phrasing is poor and of course I'm going to choose the meaning most relevant to the discussion at hand.

I'm done with you. You're trying to save face by exploiting your own poor phrasing. I don't care that you've agreed with me, you said something dumb and I've pointed it out. Deal with it. Now drop it.

He says its PFC so even the new ING1a coils are ran in wastespark.

Are you retarded? Learn how to read. And considering most of your retorts take me out of context. And now you're making things up again. Go away.

Your right. I do apologise. Can't help but get frustrated.
Should have been nicer.

I have the stock coils and a twin power, so does the majority of people in our area. We run anywhere from stock power levels to mid 400WHP on the stock twin power system. most are probably peaking at low 400WHP. We also run AI with our set ups.

The question is, is there a difference between A vrs. B when it comes to the dyno, and how much is that difference.

I find it irresponsible to show a used old non-sufficient set up vrs. a new set up and say the new set up is better. A new stock coil set up might be sufficient, I don't know.


It would be like saying the OEM apex seals aren't performing on this 100K mile engine, but our E&J seals in this brand new engine show higher compression.

Yet, E&J seals leave nasty chatter marks on engines, they are soft, and who knows about the longevitiy of them. I have seen 500WHP OEM seals with AI run 50K miles, broken down and the housings look new. I also see MANY OEM seals go for a very long time, many aftermarket seals not hit 10K miles. could be due to engine builder, or tune, or both. Not sure.

In order to have accurate data to make decisions from, you would need to test multiple units, multiple cars and do a null, alternative hypotheses to determine is one if in fact better performing than the other. On this forum I see a lot of single test points, and points compared to one another using different dyno's and in different conditions and we just say one is better than the other of one data point. I wouldn't make my decisions based off of that. There are some groups where the evidence is so overwhelming that we can definitely say there is a difference. This would apply to the EFR turbo's.

I am not saying the oem coils are better than IGN1A coils, I am just saying that we cannot conclude that new oem coils with a twin power is better or worse than new IGN1A coils ran in wasted spark mode or even direct fire for that matter. that is all. It also depends on what the user is using it for. Then you also have the reliability side of things. I know OEM has done the homework, has IGN1A coils been heat cycled as much on a rotary? I don't know.

Some of you need to read this thread here. The IGN-1A coils provide a hotter spark and more duration than the oem coil at the same dwell settings. Duration is what's most important with rotarys and is based off the coils physical size. Basically larger coils take longer to fully discharge so the plug stays lite longer. Rotarys need the plugs to stay lite longer because of the long combustion chamber. Nothing beats the fc coil when it comes to duration however, they dont have much voltage output. The twin power only increases the voltage output.

https://www.rx7club.com/naturally-as...hread-1035364/

Indeed. Be careful though, someone might dislike your being for the scientific method and even go so far as to reply when they said they were done with you.

To everyone wanking about new IGNs vs 90k+ stockers I'd like to point out that over the past 10+ years the failure modes that I see are either 100% failure, or intermittent spark. Not a 'weaker' spark.

So coils don't degrade with time, gradually accumulating small breaks, some rust, etc. and this doesn't affect its performance? Those 90k+ coils don't typically also mean mid-high mileage wires and plugs either? Nice to know coils work perfectly and then decide to just not work one day. Oh, wait.

You have just made a heap of assumptions based on no real facts. Your just guessing or predicting.
Well done.

You ever worked in mining or industry with HV gear, yes insulation breakdown voltage drops over time (and coils may degrade slightly), but when it gets down to system operating transient levels shit lets go (generally completely burning out) in a hurry, it doesn't "fade out". :lol:

Take a pill or something. Don't start another one of your rants because you don't like what I've experienced first hand.

It's funny how Slides was the only one that even attempted to address the questions and poorly at that.

I'm not speaking solely on insulation breakdown, although that has an affect. For any with some actual knowledge on this subject they know that the coil windings themselves will develop small breaks over time, especially when handled roughly. This alone increases coil resistance and degrades its performance. Over a long life, even with a protective boot coils can develop a tarnish on their output as well. If it's a smart coil then the electronics inside degrade with time and have a finite life span, although, that typically means odd transient behavior and not so much overall degraded performance. Etc.

So no, coils don't just magically stop working, there are methods to track their health but in the automotive world anyway most don't.

dguy - Sounds like that's exactly what you're trying to do against my first hand experience.

Where have you mentioned your first hand experience? I don't see it, and making a post illustrating my personal experience and then responding to a snarky comment hardly constitutes a rant.

All that you have done is bemoan an 'unfair' comparison without providing any evidence to the contrary. Call my 'evidence' anecdotal if you'd like, but don't even think that its cool to respond to my comment the way that you did and then even THINK about accusing me of going off on a rant.

Thanks much to Elliot for his testing, makes me feel better for migrating to IGN-1As for the configurations I've been building requiring onboard igniters.

Are you going to refute the nature of how coils age that I've stated and is fact or continue to attack me? I don't particularly care to address your "expertise" or mine given the facts are on my side and as such have no need to fall back on it to make a point. Furthermore, You have also conveniently forgotten the key word in your own post, "start", which implies it had not been done yet. Then you went and did it anyways. Good job.

Reread my posts. You're acting like a keyboard cowboy.

Keep attacking me as opposed to my argument.

Hey guys maybe I can clear some things up. This was my car that I dyno'd the coils on. Basically i did my single turbo upgrade and left the factory ignition on looking for 420 hp. i was getting a good bit of breakup when tuning so i knew i was going to need a better ignition. but i wanted to dyno for shits and giggles. To initially try and fix the breakup I went with NGK 11.5 heat racing plugs. This helped but did not cure the issue. I wasnt going to waste money on a twin power i just bought the AEM coil packs made a bracket and wired them up myself for cheaper than a twin power. The 2 dynos use the same plug setup. One is factory ignition and one is AEM ignition.

Thanks for posting this. I'd be interested to see a compare between good/newish OEM stock coils with Twinpower vs the newer IGN coils on a PFC...... May have to look into that myself sometime :)

someone send me their twin power and i can get some o'scope shots, Im curious how it works