BW E-Gate by Full Race, anyone using it?
 

Anyone here using the E-Gate for the IWG EFRs from Full Race?

https://www.full-race.com/full-race-...conversion-kit

Feel like I've been living under a rock, just discovered this as an option

It's brand new. Only became available for B2 frame turbos a couple weeks ago and B1 frame not yet in stock.

I have a B2 on the way though.

Cool cool, I figured that was the case. I shot them an email with a few questions.

What ECU are you using, and are you going to use their controller or control it directly from your ECU?

Need to use their controller which will accept PWM. It has the position sensor stuff built into it. You might be able to figure out how to control it with a dual H bridge driver in an ecu (like how the DBW throttle body works), but that's beyond me :)

Haltech and fuel tech have controller modules for controlling external gates, but that's been out for a while, so I figure they would have just used that instead of having another company make one that is double the cost if they could have avoided it.

I looked on the Full Race and DCCD websites and did not see any instructions on how the controller works from an actual tuning perspective to get desired boost curve. From my own experience tuning these electronic gates, they use stepper motors and are not very linear or intuitive to control. Wastegate swing valve position corresponds to a particular opening area of the valve, which not linear to boost at all. Maybe their software simplifies it but I don't see any info on the software. On OEM applications they typically have look up tables inside the ECU that convert these parameters (motor position, swing valve angle, opening area of the valve, and some calculated turbine flow parameter that feeds into the boost control algorithm).

Turbosmart has a different style electronic external wastegate. I think it's a normal poppet style external gate that's controlled electronically instead of pneumatically. If you dig into the instructions you can see the same type of situation, where there are multiple settings that relate to the relationship between valve position and opening area: BlackBox Electronic Wastegate Controller • Turbosmart .

It's just PWM. 95% duty cycle is fully open. 5% is sealed shut. You then adjust for your desired control. Similar to how you control a wastegate solenoid.

I've played with the turbosmart software. It's basically the same. But, for their own Egates, it's got the logic built in for boost control. But you can use the controller for other Hbridge applications as well.

Id be very interested if someone could get the turbosmart box to work. It can control 2 gates at the same time. I have a twin IWG setup. I'd really like to avoid buying 2 controllers, turbosmart working in this case would save me $500.

it’s on my list :suspect: but may just depend with ecu is being used, Haltech has their own controller, etc.

imo the potential of the e-WG is well underestimated …
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I've ordered it, along with the FuelTech Dual Power Driver they use for their own wastegates to drive as a proper stepper setup. Wiring looks like it's the same between FuelTech and Full Race units, apart from the temp sensor on some of the FuelTech gates that is lacking on the Full Race, and un-needed as it's a remote mount wastegate anyway. The Full Race controller's main benefit is PWM control from the ECU, luckily I have enough proper outputs on the FT550 I can drive it directly. I don't think the FT550 has the ability to correctly integrate the gate though PWM control, of course I could be wrong. My way is also a few hundred cheaper, so there's that..

Real question is, will it fit between the Turbo and the steering rack? It's quite a bit longer than the stock and TurboSmart wastegate. I might have to move the power steering hard lines or even tap it for new port locations on the rack.. That's by far my biggest concern at the moment. For reference I have the TurboSource IWG manifold.

the factory turbo cars from the 80's had some oddball wastegate logic. the Yamaguchi book explains how it worked.
factory turbo engines eventually ended up in the RB Bonneville car, so its a 13B Bridgeport 7.5:1 rotors, a pair of HT-20 turbos, they quoted 530hp@15psi.
this is with a distributor, and mechanical fuel injection too, so rock and paper.... life span of a hand grenade, which is why the factory went to 3 and 4 rotors

the factory cars had a air to air and air to water intercooling setup, RB just went for air to ice water. radiator is BIG. cowboy hat not included. (Jim Mederer was extremely nice)

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...ea98923b52.jpg

Can you post up the bit about the gate logic? Looked at buying it, but the cheapest most worn copy will be over $200 by the time I pay shipping and taxes..

Interested in how the gate logic could be applied to an electronic gate, and if that would be beneficial in any way

its actually worth the $$, although if you keep your eye open you could probably get it cheaper, eventually.

the FC book says "a usual wastegate shared between the two turbochargers..." "...and a modulating valve that actuates the wastegate according to rpm to improve throttle response"

actually it might just be a boost controller, but in 1981 its made of rock.
they only ran it once,

and

it

broke the welds on the intake manifold

lmao nice.


I'll keep an eye out for it

it’s what you can actually do with it that can’t readily be done with a pneumatic WG that makes all the difference
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Yes absolutely, still exploring exactly what that mean. This tech is still quite new, not a lot of info out there on any of the forums yet. I want a cruising map with the gate fully open, and I want a max-response map that will keep the gate clamped shut until I hit target. I'm sure there's some transition throttle tuning that can benefit from it as well. Traction control will also benefit. Playing with the FuelTech software, the e-gate integration seems like it's very capable. I'm sure I won't use the full potential initially, but it definitely opens the doors for more advanced strategies.

Other than openning in vacuum on a tiny turbo for fuel efficiency more easily (can still be done with pneumatic) or slightly easier balancing pressure ratios on a compound setup I can't really see what the massive attraction is to them. If you think about your plumbing and control strategy you can do pretty much all the same things with pneumatic at lower cost, higher reliability.

Thank you for demonstrating the validity of my first post further above. Not really getting ito it otherwise.
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I think the ability to control the exact position of the gate is what the benefit is. Instead of the gate creeping open when you done necessarily want it to (that is why drag racers use CO2 as a stand alone system), which adds quite a bit of cost itself, on top of the regular waste gate.

Also, I would not assume reliability is lower on the egate. There are plenty of diaphragm failures on traditional gates, not to mention melted reference lines, and leaky/broken fittings. Reliability on egates i would say is not proven yet, but could actually be higher than traditional (it could also be lower).

So for a relatively generic setup, yeah, traditional gate is fine for most applications and will be less expensive. But there are absolutely advantages to the electric gate if you are pushing high boost, including more consistent boost control, direct position control, no plumbing (unless you are running water cooling). No more need for CO2 systems.

It's not a revolutionary solution to world peace obviously, but I wouldn't say it has no benefit.

Raceonly twin egates setup

If you can't articulate it clearly you don't know.

Electronic wastegates have been the norm for a while in German cars. They give much better control to compensate where pneumatic gates can’t. Most of the ECUs use a torque demand strategy when tuning and EWG control is closely related. It will be interesting to see how the aftermarket ECU manufacturers approach using them for inputs and outputs for other features vs just plain boost control.

For those wanting to learn more about how electronic gates are used on BMWs for the last decade, check out this article on B58 tuning from Ecutek: https://ecutek.atlassian.net/wiki/sp...8+Tuning+Guide. The torque control and boost control sections of the articles cover it. As to what benefits I saw on other platforms, I had a 2017 M3 with twin turbo S55. We used electronic wastegate to get the turbos spooling extremely fast. They can react fast enough that reactions to inputs need smoothing to avoid oscillation. They were used directly in rolling anti-lag and custom traction control strategies.

For those who don't want to follow a link. This is the logic to control electronic wastegate position on an OEM single turbo BMW.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...8559b0dec2.jpg

TL;DR you're still going to have to mess around with different numbers and how much boost they generate, but it's not the same duty cycle relationship as a pressure-based actuator.

There's nothing unique to the software above. You'll find a variation of it on basically every turbo engine now (domestics as well) minus a few that uses really outdated controls.

In the diagram above, everything to the left of "Calculate wastegate position" you won't have and don't need to consider. All that is actually independent of the wastegate actuator. You're not modelling the relationship between torque and airflow, boost, or turbocharger pressure ratios on your FD's ECU. Maybe Mazda is on their current turbo engines. The target boost for your engine is mostly some number decided beforehand and then adjusted slightly. There's nothing in your ECU that's going to have a reasonably accurate torque model, but you don't need that for what you're trying to do.

The block marked WG Position Conversion Map is what I was talking about in a previous post. It's the relationship between the actuator, the angle of the wastegate valve (swing valve, internal wastegate, or valve lift on a poppet style external gate), and the opening area of the valve. The opening area of the valve is related to the amount of exhaust that flows through the turbine, which increases the turbo speed and the boost created by the compressor side.

On a standard 2 or 3 port boost control solenoid/pressure based actuator (what you're all used to), you're sort of affecting how much pressure is working against the spring in the actuator, and the rate or timing at which the gate opens. The EBC duty cycle does not directly correspond to a valve position, although typically max duty will keep the valve shut if the system is designed correctly. With an electronic actuator (or a vacuum actuator, see older BMWs) you're just directly picking a valve position or at least picking within a range of opening angles. The number 1 benefit to this is emissions (open the wastegate in cold start) and fuel economy (open it while cruising around, less backpressure), and MAYBE less sensitivity to ambient temperature. Also you get a more precise control, but you have to do a lot of tuning to take advantage of that.

Yes a lot of fine-tuning will be needed. That’s the fun of building a car with all the toys.

FuelTech has quite advanced traction control strategies, and using the wastegate is a primary strategy. Usually it’s used with a dual valve controller and CO2, but that’s not a realistic option on a street car, and a standard wastegate has fluctuation issues that can make these strategies less effective. As much as I didn’t set out to build a drag car, a 450whp+ FD will see a lot of launches so I might as well get that right.

The only downside I can see is cost, and let’s be honest this isn’t a cheap hobby from the start. I paid for an ECU with advanced functions, I want to use them to the full extent that I can.

The other downside is fitment. I might have to get creative with the power steering lines. There’s a very possibility that it won’t fit.

Next year this will be an Electronic BOV thread, OEMs have already gone this way for fuel efficiency, transient throttle, etc

just pointing out wrt the dual black box controller; they don’t just make an electronic WG …
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Yes they also have their controller so you can run a single PWM wire from your ECU to control the wastegate. Twincharged mentioned that is the method he wants to use, it will be a bit simpler to wire and set up. However, that's ~$500, while a Dual-H driver is $199 from FuelTech (needed for over 15a circuits) and the logic is built into the ECU software. It's a great solution if you want some of the benefits, but if your ECU doesn't natively support E-Gates you're most likely leaving some benefits on the table. FuelTech added E-Gate support though an update, I'm guessing other companies will follow soon if they haven't already. Unless you're on a much older ECU this is something I would ask your ECU manufacturer about before spending the money.

Also, B1 wastegate kits are now listed as in stock :)

Any chance you know if the dual Hbridge driver from fuel tech can control the OEM type of actuator? I though it was only for the aftermarket options like turbo source, which is why Full Race had a company make their own. The challenge with the full race controller is they are $500 and they confirmed if I have twin turbos with each having an internal gate, I need 2 controllers. If the turbo smart black box will work, then that can control 2 gates simultaneously. Would need to buy 2 of the fuel tech controllers as well. But again, I thought the whole reason full race came out with their own controller is because no one else's can control the OEM electronic actuators.

"EASY INSTALLATION
Electronic internal wastegate controller kits are designed to make installation onto Borg Warner B2 frame EFR turbochargers as easy as possible. The kit includes all hardware to attach the bracket and actuator arm securely. The included pigtail wiring harness allows for easy connection to your choice of standalone ecu or our EWG-PRO wastegate controller."

I'm betting the farm on their use of OR.

I think the benefit of the EWG-PRO is the ability to use an ECU that won't support E-Gates. It allows you to use a standard MAC valve signal and then program the EWG-PRO to modify that signal in a variety of ways before turning it into a standard stepper / h bridge signal.

The Dual H driver is just a pair of relays. Turbosmart said they contacted a lot of manufacturers to find out how ECUs already control e-gates when they designed their own e-gates. It would be strange to go against the industry when you want your new products to be adopted as widely as possible. The wiring is the same between gates with 5 wires for the wategate. Both use a stepper motor with a wastegate increase and a wastegate decrease, both have a position indicator sensor, 5v+ and ground. Turbosmart also has a temp sensor and water cooling built in. Some of them also have an "unfiltered position sensor" that's for development purposes on some of their units, I'm not entirely sure what that is but I don't think that's for people at the hobby / club race level anyway.

FuelTech natively supports stepper motor control on many of their outputs as long as you connect them as a pair. The FT550 (and other ECUs) have a self-calibration check for e-gates specifically, as well as other stepper motors. Once again, just like Turbosmart, it would be strange for FuelTech to release something that is only compatible with a single product or manufacturer, especially when they don't make that product themselves. Same for any other ECU manufacturer.

Ironically, us rotary owners probably have more experience with stepper motors than most other car types, thanks to the OMP. If Haltech and other ECUs can control the OMP by self calibration and a position sensor, that's pretty much the same thing as running dual e-gates, it's just a pair of steppers. Either way, I'm more willing to risk $200 on a Dual H driver that could be repurposed, than spend $500 on a black box that needs to be separately programmed and only has a single use.

If you have a pair of relays sitting around it might be worth testing it on the bench before throwing the cash on the EWG-PRO controller?

You're all thinking about the hardware and not the software and controls. This is a boost control function, and you need software that has flexibility for boost control.

Any solution that just takes a PWM duty cycle signal is going to be the most flexible. You can use existing boost control algorithms to control the gate, and existing boost control outputs from just about any EBC or natively supporting boost control ECU. Depending on the ECU there should be look up tables for base duty cycle, some kind of feedback configuration, temperature based compensation, whatever. That's assuming the frequency is compatible. In theory you could control an electric wastegate with a Power FC if the actuator controller responds to the duty signal.

I would NOT mess with any kind of oddball H bridge setup UNLESS you have the flexibility of the software to do boost control strategies (feedback based on boost etc). So if there is some generic H bridge control thingie on your ECU, that doesn't feed into a boost control algorithm, you're defeating the purpose.

Think software and control strategy first, and how the hardware serves the software, not "hey let's try this hardware and see if I can make it work." That's fine for a science experiment/tinkering, but it sounds like the goal here is to control boost better than a $40 pneumatic solenoid.

I would put me in the tinkering category :)

It seems like it would be fun to make work so will try something. I will be using MaxxECU because it can control the BMW DCT trans without needing an extra transmission control box. It has 2 H bridge drivers, but one will be used for the DBW. Will play around with the software a bit more to see how the various built in boost control options work. I do know it can pair up with a turbosmart egate.

Check and see if it can use other outputs as an H bridge pair with a relay. The FT550 has 4 H brides (2 pairs), but you can also use pairs of the grey outputs as H bridges with a dual H driver. The software will specifically let you drive a wastegate in this manner the same as if you used the actual H bridge outputs. Using a single box to control 2 waste gates means you don't get to do fun things like balance back pressure with small changes to individual gates, which is one of the better uses of an e-gate on a twin system from what I can tell

whoooooosh … :suspect:

that sound in the air when it went completely over everbody’s head … it was OT to this particular IWG device though, being specific to the Turbosmart brand.

It seemed like this particular IWG one was mentioned in another thread several days before and a few comments were made there.
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Please link the thread.

Northing went woosh. There's a ton of comments in this thread addressing it, even a direct response to your post, it seems like you missed all those? Their website also says

"The included pigtail wiring harness allows for easy connection to your choice of standalone ecu or our EWG-PRO wastegate controller."

See the use of OR? If it was required it wouldn't be presented as an option. Why include a pigtail with the e-gate if it's useless? EWG-PRO is the name of their PWM Wastegate controller aka the "black box" that we have all been referring to, unless you mean some other product?

I've also spoken directly with FuelTech asking if it will work with their dual h driver: "Got it. We can't confirm it will work fine, but you can try. Just make sure nothing will exceed the output limits. Let us know if it works! Let us know if you have any other questions!" - FuelTech support

The FT550 has extensive e-gate customization. Nobody is saying it's pure plug-and-play, but that sure would be nice

I think the confusion is "black box". The Turbosmart product is actually called the Black Box, so can't apply that term to the full race controller. :)

I didn't realize TS had their own controller as well lmao, I thought they were meant to be ECU driven exclusively. My bad. Looks nice, CAN compatible, dual gate capable and fully programmable. More functions than the Full Race box with CAN and temp controls and 2x gate control. FuelTech recommends running the e-gates directly from the ECU so I hadn't seen that as an option.

Makes the Full Race box look very overpriced.

Yes. But the problem is the turbosmart black box says it's only comparable with turbosmart gates. So not good for controlling internal gate actuators.

It says the flow vs lift tables can be edited, and it does a self check calibration for end points. The gates aren't some crazy secret tech, it's a stepper motor with a position sensor and a gear drive. It's compatible out of the box with the TS e-gates, but the settings ability sound like they will allow you to run other e-gates as long as you know how to use the software correctly and can map flow vs lift for your own gate.

I would call TS and ask. They might be curious enough themselves to test it out.

tinkering with something that could result in a blown motor. Just be careful.

the appropriate course of action is to ask the source how it should be configured for control

mr2peak, you still are not getting the intent of my comment at all, nor the other comments, hence “whoosh V2” :suspect:

However I only commented on the TS black box because someone else brought it up, but will drop it since off topic and also a convenient out from having done my homework on this since the TS device first came out …

final thought; it can be commanded to be at any position on demand under any condition or circumstance as it may be configured to address. I’d suggest that there are things some of you might never considered before believing they either weren’t possible or just from not thinking outside the age old monkey-see monkey-do box.

edit: other comments were in the Twin Turbo thread where TwinCharged mention it before starting this thread. Looking at it again, nothing there that really adds to this thread.
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It's not off-topic, anything that can be used to add e-gates to EFRs is fair game here. Hell, any e-gate info is welcome here. There's not much at all on the forum covering it, it's still super new tech for the aftermarket in general not a lot of open info about it. Share your homework with us, let's see what you found instead of just alluding to it.

As for reaching out to "the source", I have reached out to Full Race, it's been a few days without a response. I haven't reached out to TS because I don't believe I need their controller and I'm not using their gates, but I agree that is a good idea if you are considering it.

And of course I've talked to FuelTech directly.

What is it that I keep missing in your comments? If I keep missing it, maybe you aren't explaining it properly? Are you aware of something but just don't want to share it for whatever reason?

TwinCharged found the link with details on the actuator and Full-Race install manual for a Honda Civic. Same actuator the B2 frame EFR kit uses, K6T52373 (I assume the B1 EFR kit uses the same actuator, I do not know for certain).

https://www.full-race.com/articles/h...or-calibration

Saving this bit for later, most helpful part of the article for our use

SETTING ACTUATOR LINKAGE WITH WASTEGATE FULLY CLOSED

KEY ON, ENGINE OFF – MEASURE THE VOLTAGE BETWEEN PINS 3 AND 4 AND ADJUST ACTUATOR ARM THREADS UNTIL VOLTAGE IS IN THE RANGE. 1.26V TO 1.43V USE A VOLTMETER TO MONITOR VOLTAGE WHILE ADJUSTING THE ACTUATOR ARM ADJUSTING NUT THREADS.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...5cb85164d6.png

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...71095313e3.png

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...979e531c75.jpg


Wired like this (WGMTR1+, WMGTR2-), causes the Wastegate actuator to extend, closing the gate. Works in reverse too for the record lmao. So far, it's the same behavior as the Turbosmart gates.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...681236edec.jpg

I saw it’s offered but on backorder for the Garrett G-series as well, which Garrett has released a 1.01 IWG twinscroll T4 housing for the G35 🤔
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Make sure you will have room. It’s smaller then the Turbosmart E-Gates, but it’s still a large bugger


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...1c0d9fd0d.jpeg

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...1072ee2d5.jpeg

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...70581ed40.jpeg

I don’t really consider that an issue so much as it being almost directly under the oil drain with the inlet facing into the engine (not an FD3). Because the Garrett CHRA is a lot shorter than even the BW B1. So plumbing both oil and water in there is kind of a booger.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...b3b92fce5.jpeg
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there’s no timeline on the Garrett setup though, still in beta testing working out the final details it seems.

Do it. Join us on this journey :)

there’s no boat for me to ride yet :suspect:
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I'm going to let this get a little more developed before I dive in, but this seems like THE solution for internally gated turbos to get the combo of best spool, greatest range, and peak control.

So here is how I plan to start from a controller perspective. Assuming I go with Maxxecu as I like their built in DCT transmission control. And the engine control seems on par with other mid range ecu’s.

they have a boost control setting section, but it’s all based on controlling solenoids, so things like closed loop boost control where you set the target MAP and the ECU does most of the work to adjust PWM of the wastegate solenoid to achieve the target boost won’t work for an electronic wastegate. Note, normal boost control strategy settings WILL work if you use the Full Race controller or the Turbosmart Black Box, as those perform the conversion of paired HBridge motor control (+ and -) to a Single PWM signal, which is just like a wastegate solenoid. I’m trying to avoid buying extra boxes. I also have a question out to Maxxecu to see if they are planning to update their software to allow the boost strategy control to pair with HBridge motors.

you need to do 2 main things. Assign an analog input (0-5v) as the wastegate position sensor, AIN4 in this example. And 2 outputs as the + and - PID output for electronic motor control, PID2 in this example.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...11d1708bd.jpeg


since I can’t use the boost control section in the software, must use the PID output section which allows you to build a control for a pair of HBridges (among other things). It allows you to set target numbers for a variable (in this case, wastegate position, which is a 0-5v sensor built into the wastegate actuator). In this mock-up I’m assuming 0% is closed and 100% is open, and that the position sensor is linear from 0-5v.

input setting:
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...cc98e6f91.jpeg


output setting: this obviously will require real life tuning. In the example below, it’s a very simplistic draft with a boost target of 15psi. You can see where it sets the target variable to the analog input I assigned as the wastegate position. PWM output at the bottom of the page controls Negative duty cycle to trigger one direction of the gate, and the positive duty cycle will move it in the other direction. The table then allows you to set the value for the target variable (position). In this case I set target relative to MAP and RPM, but you can pick any others (throttle position, rate of rpm increase, gear, as some examples), and even do a 4d table. In this simple scenario, it shows 0% wastegate position (closed) when boost is under 15psi. And 100% (open) when boost is above 15psi. This obviously needs some real world tuning and smoothing to make function properly. You could also add a switch, and change the “control enabled” to a switch position instead of “always active”, build more than one table, and then the switch allows the software to move between the different boost control tables.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...14e74f1f6.jpeg


Don’t take my word as gospel, I haven’t actually tried it outside of the software yet, and I’m not a tuner. The software is pretty powerful. Their might be a way to stack tables and get this to treat boost pressure as the target and get the position of the gate to seek it automatically, like closed loop boost control, but haven’t gotten into that yet. I have some questions out to Maxxecu.

it might end up being worth getting the Turbosmart Black Box which can control 2 gates via a single PWM, but I need to research how to calibrate it to non-turbosmart actuators (they do work the same and both have 0-5v position sensors, but would def need to be calibrated). Then the boost control strategies would be simplified because I could use the standard closed loop boost control settings. The downside is that then each gate would be paired, but for my sequential system there might be some benefits of keeping them separate.

you can use CAN to control them separately, I already discussed it with TS.
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