Borgwarner EFR 8474 Dyno Thread
 

I am going to collect all the upcoming EFR 8474 Dyno Sheets here in this thread.


Below is the initial EFR 8474 dyno results overlayed on the same dyno, with the same tuner( Omar at raceonly in Australia)

Large Streetported, E85, 3.5" exhaust with a vmount on this 2 rotor FD.

Green is the old welded shorty EWG 7670 kit
Red is the cast IWG 8474 kit
Only change besides the turbo kits was moving from an Adaptronic select, to the new modular PNP ECU. Green Dyno was a few years ago, as Adam ran this kit for 5+ years.

As soon as this is done being tuned, I will get Omar to post the boost curves also. I believe the green is at 20 psi, and the red at 26psi. Remember this dyno reads like a mustang for those not aware. The red did not reach redline either as it ran out of fuel( 2 x 1650, and 2 x 2450, with twin walbro 460).


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...c612220676.jpg

Keep the dyno's coming, the curve looks great! Now we just need to see how a 31+ psi pull (with full fuel) looks like on it ;)

EMAP and EGT would be very helpful here...

I would suspect the crossover point to be earlier than on the 8374, as well as EGT up at least 150F.

I'll stand by a claim that excessive exhaust backpressure is what kills motors at their limits, with otherwise good tuning.

Not happening on this car Ryan. Yes exhaust backpressure is the killer. It will be interesting to see how much power we can make before we hit that wall. That is the question.....
I have another car with a bridgeport with the same turbo, will be interesting to see if an engine with more VE up top will be able to make use of the compressor before the exhaust taps out.

When can we expect to THAT car to dyno!? 👌🏼😎

I'm far from educated on this. But wouldn't a Bridgeport have more back pressure on the same exhaust/turbine setup? More air going into the engine, higher overlap, but same restriction going out?

If anyone is interested in the build I posted about it in my build thread. We obviously had a few hurdles to overcome once we got it on the dyno, but we're good now - and the primary injectors have been swapped to 2400cc Siemen Deka ready to be run up in the next few days. The tune was still super rich as well - Omar had it really fat to keep it safe while we were working out why it was spinning up on the dyno. Keen to refine it and crank it.

Yes. You're dead on there. Even more of an issue.

Omar, I'm surprised you aren't the one posting this since it's your data. Why have Elliot do it for you?

Why the heck is power output so low at lower RPMs? Who tuned this?!

Omar doesn't frequent the forums anymore. Too busy with the shop. Elliot is passing on the info. All of this info is on the Raceonly facebook page.

That's simply not true. He posted all over the single turbo forum yesterday. He could have done this thread himself.

What evidence do you have for this ?
If your just passing on someone else’s rubbish then better not say it all.

Ah true last I spoke to him about the forums he said he didn’t use them much but he has been on here recently. Up to him to weigh in though.

Some people believe increased overlap increases EMAP/EGT's.

Yeah, that's not a belief, that's factual. That's what contributes to manifold design and turbocharger selection being so critical.

Anyone else notice how Omar stopped at 6200 RPM as power fell off? Care to explain how a large streetport with longer, larger manifold did this?

I think a proper comparison should be 8374 vs 8474 with EGT data, etc.

I don't understand the point of comparison they show unless they just want to point out the difference in turbine wheels, which we already know spool time between the previous 8374 vs 7670 is marginal.

I agree with Rightbrain on asking these questions.

What are you taking about. I was asking a question, not making a statement.

More air, same restriction, is it not logical that that would mean more back pressure?

That's my question, not passing along anyone else's rubbish. And it's a public forum, I can say more back pressure if I want to. What value did your post provide. Did you provide any data or useful thought?

Perfect. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Give thought and data. Currently this is a fluff piece for the wrong turbo for a 13B. Howard and I already explained it on the other fluff piece thread.

Really irks me that Elliot is posting for Omar. What else is going on behind the scenes?

Was already stated - we ran out of fuel. This was still a rich tune with the 1750 primary injectors. We stopped here and swapped in the 2400's - will run it up again next week.

Why does it bother you? Elliot is just passing on the info that is publicly available on the Raceonly socials so that people on here that may not follow them are kept up to date.

Regarding the injectors. Are the 2400s common in Australia? I haven't seen many build threads with those.

Hmm, not entirely sure although maybe not - haven't personally heard of many using them; they are quite expensive I suppose. You see a lot more of the ID2000's being used but I wanted to avoid them and we needed more fuel than that I believe. I was using 1750 x 4 ASNU injectors for my 7670 set up previously. Omar advised that the 2400 Siemens Deka are an excellent injector and will do the job so we ran with them..

How do you justify 26psi making 475whp? Do the math on that one.

I can't understand the logic of cranking up the boost and running out of injector before reaching RPM limits in a perfect testing environment.

Here are three dyno plots with similar setups that easily out perform this with an 8374 IWG. So there's fake news somewhere, or just REALLY shit tuning. I'll let y'all be the judge of that.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...1b13ec28d4.png
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...b53ed38e5c.png
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...6136ddc18d.png

Tune was rough for two reasons - it was very fat as it was spinning on the dyno and Omar didn't want to risk anything while we were diagnosing it, and we had boost control issues hence the high boost figures. It wasn't holding less than 25-26psi then suddenly started holding 17psi - Omar said perhaps the WG was stuck shut. We weren't trying to run the boost that high on purpose initially it was just running away. The car was also doing a burnout on the dyno on those high psi runs. Need to address that next run. But also note that it was 475hp at 6k not redline on this rough tune. Plenty more to come.

Personally I think we should've refrained from posting anything yet, these were all just preliminary runs where we were still having issues so it's not telling us that much I don't think.

I'm sorry, those are lame excuses. It takes all of 10-15mins to remove a wastegate and diagnose or swap it.

How such a low power, low torque car can spin that hard on a dyno is beyond me... You've gotta be kidding here. Is the roller covered in ice? Spray the tires and run more straps. Throw a fat kid in the back.

I’m by no means an expert in anything other than “dyslexic”, but i was kinda disappointed with that power figure for the fuel and boost.
Wouldn’t there be more power available for that amount of fuel, even for E85, and even allowing for a rich tune??
also to sort out the tune and get more towards redline, and while already strapped to the Dino, why wouldn’t you up the base fuel pressure, there is plenty of fuel pump headroom for that
i too have seen (on youtube so it must be true yeah???) similiar power from a 7670 on around 28-30psi and similiar power with less boost from a 8374.

Krem

It just did 480 @ 21psi (still smoking the tyres) - we're working through it. Like I said - shouldn't have posted that graph it's by no means complete.

Sweet deal. What is the strategy for fixing the traction issue. Is it something with the dyno roller or are the tires just old?

Hes on 20 inch wheels, so its much easier to get the tires to spin.

A lot of you guys need to remember that this dyno reads lower than the most of the readings we are used to seeing on the dynojets stateside.

For example the 7670 EWG runs showing 400rwhp @ 22 psi, is what we usually see 450ish rwhp on with a dynojet. So if you want to try and compare more, think of adding 10% to Raceonly dyno.

Prelimary dyno results are show as, its always better to have more data, always.
Raceonly just tuned an 8374 with a similar port on E85 this morning( same cast kit) on E85. I will get that dyno sheet from Omar for a better comparison between the 8474 and 8374.

In a perfect world we would swap turbos and show back to back results etc. I need to finish a customers 8374 IWG in house build before I can move forward with any dyno comparison etc.

By monday we should see the HPB and Adam's 8474 builds both tuned at 30psi ish range.

Wow , some harsh comments . First dyno and people are jumping on this like someone just pissed in their cornflakes.

One person.

My tyres are 5 years old - Michelin Super Sports. Whacking some cup 2's on when we're done. We'll look at just putting some other wheels on from another car to see if we can alleviate it.

I owe you an apology, Adam. This will do well and we'll have the results in time. Best of luck.

No worries man, if you have questions about anything or want to know more just DM me, happy to answer. Hopefully we get it dialed in this week!

I don't know anyone involved and in my opinion the guy is asking very valid questions. These threads are generally designed to build hype to help sell turbo kits. Id personally love to see a 1/8 or 1/4 mile trap speeds with back to back setups to go along with the dynos. For me, the dyno graph is about the torque curve. I hate playing the "add 10-15% for x dyno compared to x dyno" when guys can't justify the numbers. My old 8374 setup put up almost identical numbers on 20.5lbs with a stock port and pump gas and Elliot told me it was disappointing. LOL Hilarious to see the spin factor in effect here.

All bullshit aside its nice to see these comparisons and I'm glad more FD owners are going the EFR route.

That is one thing I have plenty of. Most of the cars that come off my dyno actually race.

FD's making 500 rwhp on my dyno have trapped between 132-135mph . Other FD's that make closer to 570ish rwhp have trapped 138-140mph

Yes, I thought so, but I did take it too far. Time to tone it back and wait for the data.

On an FD that's close to factory weight, from what I've seen at the drag strip, the FD's that can 60', meaning cut 1.4's or better, there can be an additional 5-8mph vs someone not launching or not set up to launch the car. Skinnies up front are worth 2mph. Weight reduction even more mph. I've seen 450 rwhp cars pull mid 130's in 90 degree weather.

By way of comparison, if someone puts a road race or drift platform on the drag strip, the 330' mph can be off as much as 10mph, which at the same power level, won't make it up on the back half. You gotta use the entire 1/4 mile, rolling out won't show the potential of the hp.

The average guy cutting between a 1.7-2.2 are going to have very similar trap speeds assuming similar HP and no missed shifts etc. It is a much more accurate barometer then the dyno games played from shop to shop. We all know HP numbers help sell turbo kits and helps sell cars. Everyone wants the high number so shops are smart and cater to that. Drag Strip doesnt lie unless a guy simply cant drive at all.

A 2.2 and a 1.7 will be quite different.

When you look at a time slip or a datalog, you can see the difference and adjust, we always go to a track that has the 330' mph to base our set ups on and for a fact, there can be a huge mph difference based on how well you dial in the short times.
Trap speeds measuring horsepower are a pretty thin method of comparison unless it's done on one car, one track, same day, same DA, and that's not gonna happen.

I agree with DJ seven, no matter how good or bad I launch my car (assuming that I grab traction soon after the launch) MPH doesn't seem to be more than a few MPH different. Hell, even the roll race guys trap about the same as they do starting from 0 mph... It makes sense if you think about it, it may only take 100 feet to hit 40 mph, which just shortens the 1/4 mile by 100 feet.... How much mph can you possibly gain the last 100 feet when you are moving at 120mph+....

I have actual data on both my cars and my ZX-14's that proves how much mph goes up (let's use 1/8th mile) for example. On my 14, we changed gears from what we run at TX2k to +6 on the rear sprocket.

Same length on swingarm.

60' 1.62
1/8 6.03
Mph 119

Re gearing, no other changes

60' 1.42
1/8 5.68
Mph 125

The 1/4 mile will reflect the same gain in mph.

We changed gearing for roll on street racing alot, so this isn't some fluke.

You put a turbo on a 2 step and leave on the correct boost, WOT sooner equates to more mph and quicker ET's.

5 mph more on a car set up the same and leaving the same will equate to 75hp, we know that. But we also know that there have been a few guys on here run nearly 130mph (128 to be exact) on just 400rwhp (stock twins). It's set up that pulls better ET and mph.

Come race your 500hp dyno gueen against a car with 100hp less but set up right, you WILL get your ass drug ET and MPH.

If you want to argue drag racing I think it'd be best if you did it somewhere else. Anecdotal evidence is just that, and I'd hope that we can keep this as empirical as we can by plots that are as back to back as possible.

I have dynos, they're not hard to get real data from (as long as the people presenting it are honest :P) so lets hope we can put this one to bed post haste.

^That's why I love you. Hahaha

One thing that would make this thread better would be MARCUS READ coming in and posting about his BATHURST SP TWINS that make more HP than a big single, he has dyno sheets for proof so it must be a real claim...

Haha. I forgot about the "doctor"

The Doctor and Marcus are different people.

No, I think I'll keep it right here buddy. I'm making the point that you can't judge weather there are inflated dyno numbers soley by the trap speed because of the difference in a car set up to actually run the 1/4 mile vs one that is not.

That being said , the Bathurst SP 650 (650hp twins) absolutely needs more proof then that Dyno supplied judging by the torque reading or lack of.

Still waiting on the 8474 high boost results to see if it actually beats the 8374 number turblown posted of 573hp. If it doesn't and doesn't beat it by 100hp that's sure to raise a few questions.

It's going to undoubtedly make more power. The question is where the heck is EMAP and EGT in relation to a nicely setup 8374, 9174, 9180, and 9280.

Are we really saying that all dynos are the same? Engine dyno, I'd say more likely. Seen enough change just with wheel/tyre combos that we keep dyno wheels to limit that variation. That's why in the antipodes, there's usually derisory remarks about American power figures - at best you've got a tuning tool rather than an "empirical" device.

Funnily enough the twins have been posted elsewhere, if I was either of the two involved here, I'd say go root your boot rather than provide any info though.