Blowing out spark WI at 30psi 7000rpm crane hi6 Suggestions ?
 

Blowing out spark Car is water injected we are at 30psi 7000rpm
ignition setup is a crane hi6
I am injecting 700cc of water
any Suggestions ?
do we think the ign-1a coils can out do what I have currently

I'd give them a shot. I haven't heard of anyone having spark issues with the IGN-1A.

Highest power on ign1a coils that I am aware or is 850rwhp. This was race gas however.

We have the coils in stock if you want to give them a shot.

The IGN1-A coils are very good and offer advantages over CD ignition in that you get similar or better spark energy and increased spark dwell.

If in fact it's the capability of your ignition that's holding you back then you certainly should try the IGN1-A coils, but first you should make sure there's not another problem. What kind of plugs, and what gap? You're sure the mixture is good, not too rich? People tuning the AFR TO 10:1 can run into the limit of the AFR gauge, and actually end up much richer and flood the combustion.

I use a crane Hi-6 and LX-92 coil per leading plug (so 2x each) and I didn't have any problems at 28psi and afrs >10:1. Didn't get to try higher boost as I ran out of fuel.

It can be so rich it chuffs soot out the WG like a diesel and it pulls through fine. We made little drawings in the soot...

Blue tii what fuel are you using and are using wi
If so what quantity ?

No, just straight 116.

Edit- that was on the dyno so straight 104 unleaded.

So, you need the ign-1a for the internal ignitor?

Because I looked at the ign-1a and LX-92 coils and they have some different stats (and Crane recommends LX-92 for use with Hi-6).

Are you using 1 or 2 Hi-6 units? Do you have big gauge wire to the Hi-6(s)?

I have literally had my car stumble start on engine assembly lube fumes after a rebuild with just fuel inj/pump disabled building oil pressure, so now I disable ignition as well.

But then I guess there is a difference between big spark and sparking under big pressures.

What plugs you run?

Sorry mate but you cannot compare a WI tune to anything else.
I have tuned cars with the Hi-6 to 45psi on Meth with no missing what so ever.

WI puts exteme loads on the ignition system.

If i was to use the IGN-1A i would not use it in conjunction with the CDI.

Got my hands on 2 IGN-1A coils. I have bypassed the cranes and wired them in.
Initial impressions on the road is that they feel the same/Maybe alittle better. Ill see if i can get it on the dyno tonight to get a real comparison.

nice argument for a decent HEI over CDI

Dyno wasn't available tonight. Hopefully tomorrow.

I think the IGN-1A is powerful enough to cater for most cars. Pretty impressive for what they are.

Well we put that one to bed quickly. Slightly better but not enough.

M&W Pro Drag 2 going in tomorrow.

^Keep us posted!

Have you tried the popular MSD DIS 2 (1 for leading & 1 for trailing) and MSD DIS Blaster Coils?

I have not.
The prodrag is next and im hoping it will get us accross the line so the customer can have his car back. His getting itchy lol. Im having more fun then he is.

What coils are using with the M&W?


J.

We used the LX92 coils with the M&W CDI.

Putting the M&W CDI fixed our missfire although it didn't fix the power drop.
Power drop ended up being an exhaust restriction.
Dropping the exhaust resulted in 645rwhp on the same boost.
Best i could do with full 3.5inch exhaust was 588rwhp. (Which is obviously the power figure that counts, can't drive around a road car with no exhaust).
Now to figure out how to fit a 4 inch exhaust on the next project.

I would dare say if we had addressed the exhaust issue, all 3 ignition systems would have been sufficient. I guess I won't find out till the next project. This one is now done and the customer is giving it a work out.

Now, those are some #'s. Congrats on getting the issue resolved.

Are the waste gates routed back into the exhaust? I just can't see a 3.5 inch exaust being that much of a restriction if they ate being dumped to atmosphere.

Are the waste gates routed back into the exhaust? I just can't see a 3.5 inch exaust being that much of a restriction if they ate being dumped to atmosphere.

Are you accounting for the huge amount of water vapor from the aux injection adding to the mass of exhaust flow?

Yes it is being dumped to atmosphere.

By the time I was at 8000rpm exhaust back pressure was near 9psi. whereas it hovered around 1-2psi for the rest of the run.

And seeing as i dropped the exhaust and it started making power, do you think that something else was causing the issue?

Something doesn't quite add up. I've made 850rwhp with a 3.5in exhaust, bigger turbo, more boost, inductive ignition, water injection/pump gas.

I'm assuming your muffler is of a true straight thru design?

Does the 3.5 exhaust further taper down to a smaller diameter perhaps going into a silencer or baffle?

What was the final boost pressure for 64x rwhp run. Nice work btw and thanks for sharing.

It was still 30psi.
We are going to try and bigger rear housing with the full exhaust and see if that remedies the issue some what. Only time will tell.

We are also doing another rx7 on e85 with an efr 9180, this time with the 1.45 rear. (you would know since your supplying it lol)
We would love to put 40-45psi in it if it can work and see what it makes!.

Just out of curiosity, that's in the post-turbo exhaust, not the manifold?

Dump pipe pressure.

You could not supply enough compressor energy if pre-turbine pressure was only 9PSI.

Thanks for that Slides :)

I did some more logging and manifold pressure goes through the roof around the time the power goes down, almost double the inlet pressure.

/\ and there is the real scoop.. most of us will have a pressure ratio somewhere between 2 and 3 :1
anything under 2 and you have a very efficient turbo

Is this to say that on a restrictive turbo running 30psi boost the exh manifold pressure could be as high 90psi?

That just doesn't even seem plausible. That kind of pressure drop across the turbine would seem to have to "over-rev" the turbo

Because it isn't.

Bernoulli and his principle must me taken into account. As velocity increases, pressure decreases.

dont just take my word for it !
search around!

it is true that some diesels,some older f1 , and some indi cars huge turbine housings with very long extractor type header pre turbo can get down close to 1:1
but these are not street cars with highflows

but your typical stock subie has about 180 Kpa in total exhaust backpressure , or 120 kpa pre turbo , when boost is only 70 kpa .. ratio of 120/70
i.e a ratio of 1.7:1 while only at only 10 psi boost !!

and your average stock 2Jz when wound up is closer to 3:1 backpressure to boost ratios at boost over 1 bar


RX8 Engines

// it is far to big and complicated subject to spell out for a thread like this and relate simply down to Bernoulli without taking in all the mass energy transfers and losses

it is also not a straight line relationship where you can extrapolate a figure like 30 psi boost will equate to 90 psi backpressure,, there becomes a point where the sums go logrithmic after the choke point and simply the backpressure will increase so fast ahead of boost
the boost will flatten out and the motor will have destructed with the heat loads induced by 90 psi backpressure

as for backpressure "over revving the turbo" .. um .. no

the backpressure ratio , expected to be between 1.5 and 3:1 in most examples IS the reason for the large spider washer and the thrust bearing inside the turbo as backpressure will try and load / thrust the turbo assembly axially

Something interesting for those with a bend towards design.

I'm aware of this but was asking as what is being reported is a bit vague.

Curious, what kind of plug wires you running?

Just some Bosch Leads.

I would check the resistance on them to make sure they have some. Resistorless plug wires are bad for modern day computerized automobiles because they do a poor job of supressing EMI. I was having weird ignition problems with mine that I traced to virtually "no" resistance in the plug wires. They were a universal kit I bought from summit racing. I've recently installed some Magnacor KV85 wires based on some research I did and they work beautifully. You could be having some EMI interference causing hell with the ecu and ignition. Just a thought!

Edit:

For those of you that dont understand what EMI is (eletromagnetic interference) and its effects on modern day electronics, here's some good info.

http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/main.htm

Click on "The truth about ignition conductor wires" tab. I don't think I'll ever run a different set of wires on my car again.

I've had similar issues with my setup, I'm curious if it's the exhaust housing on the turbo now. I've been assuming it's ignition related for the past few months; it starts at about 26psi and 5500rpm and get progressively worse up to 32psi. Sometimes it doesn't happen, other times it happens all day.

I unfortunately haven't tried logging exhaust manifold pressure since I don't have the appropriate sensors. Where did you get yours?

IGN-1A coils - direct fire
MSD 8.5mm wires, R6725-11 plugs - I've tried several others too
GTX4294R turbo, 1.0 T4 divided exhaust housing
Streetported REW motor, gasket matched intake
Full 4" turboback exhaust, dumped 38mm wastegates
E85 fuel

Guess I'll order a new 1.28 or 1.44 T4 exhaust housing and see if that helps.

Is it break-up your having?

What mixtures are you running?

11.5-11.7 AFR @ WOT - when the issue happens, the AFR's drop into the low 10s though.
15 AFR @ cruise

Do you have a log of the issue?

Based on your description, how could it be your housing? If the housing was undersized, you would have gradual consistant performance lost and not something that happens occasionally. This only makes since if you had a faulty variable geometry turbo.

I agree with t-von. Sounds like you have a fuel supply issue.

t-von, you're probably right but I was thinking maybe there was some backpressure issue causing exhaust to be recirulated in the engine somehow. I'll probably still change the turbine housing since it's a little undersized for my plans to raise the boost further.

rx72c, I'm fairly certain it's not fuel related since the issue goes away for a few runs after a fresh set of plugs that are gapped .018" - it still degrades rather quickly though. I'll still check if I can troubleshoot that somehow though.

Do you think a turbine housing issue would go away?
There is no logic in that.
You have a tune up/ignition issue.

Try some 10 heat range plugs.

Post a pic of your current plug. The threaded area to see how far the heat is transferring down the threads

If it is breakup then the issue is with ignition. You seemed to have enough fuel looking at your AFR. Some have remedy it through spark plugs like you are going to try. But the best and constant solution is to beef up your ignition. I had the same problem but then I bought the M&W ignition box and I swear sometimes I think I could run my car with just water and it will ignited! ;-) it is pricey but it will work every time and the car runs much smother

Just my 0.02 cents

Andrew

We did put the M&W ignition which bumped up power to 585rwhp but it is still shutting down after 7000rpm.
Hopefully this rear housing gets here soon and will be seeing if the 1.45 gets us across the line.