Rotary Aviation seals *Feedback*
 

OK, I have many people asking me -"what do I think of the RA seals???"
I personally have no experience w/ them and decided to do some searching......

With so many engines out there running the RA seals I still see too many complications and not enough solid performance results to choose them over the Mazda ones ...besides their price and obviously RA's claims.

RA has made a few changes to their seals:
-the way they're numbered
-manufactured
-machined
-(recently) they're no longer numbered, all the exact same size.

It would be nice if everyone thats using them, mainly the forced induction engines to leave their feedback/experience.....good or bad.

Is there any serious race cars or shops running them w/good results?

I know few are posting on "maxthe7man's post......w/ mixed results!!!

This reminds me when eveyone jumped the bandwagon using the Hurley seals and after many, many broken seals people now think they're garbage.
But yet, they're good for a few because they cause no damage when they break!!!! **the idea is to avoid opening the motor**

I believe the Mazda ones to be superior and offer better quality control.

I believe Scheepers has tried them in his high revving PP engine and they failed with in few dyno runs....

So lets get some feedback guys.

https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-performance-77/rotary-aviation-seals-10-000-km-report-285884/

I have them

now 1.5k miles on them with the new motor

Lets see hard start issues? non
Boost issues? non- run 15PSI on pump gas
turbo is a PT67 (heavy mod'd TII)
11.8@119 on DR's 1.85 60'

They key from talking to rotary shops that use them around here
is to use OEM springs...The failers they have had with them on high revving NA and N.O machines
have been collapsed RA springs

I just got a set from them a week ago (no # markings this time), so I'll keep you guys updated.

It was the first pull on the dyno. He has never had what happened there happen before or since. You could not pay him to try them again. Tore up two pport housings and the rotors. It was a very expensive 20 second motor.

so it looks like mazda seals are the only way to go, like always.

plz dude

RA has sold thousands and thousands of sets
and yet you hear very very very few reports of failures

You can't blame the seals when theres bad tunning

I hit 20PSI today after my Profec B install
and I spun the tires when I boosted from a cruise speed on 3rd to full boost

dd the little poor RA seals break after hitting close to 500 to the wheels on that pull ? no

wait till I go to dyno to fine tune this bitch for 22-25 PSI

I emailed them January last year inquiring on if the seals would work on high rpm NA motors and Laura Crook replied they would. I forwarded that on to Ken. David Sanchez had just bought a set but had not installed them yet so Ken used them and BOOM!!!! :eek: the rest is history for that motor.

Now I have heard people remark about how a high RPM NA motor is different and YADAYADAYADA but you know what? I was not asking them about a turbo motor or a street car. I asked about a high RPM pport. The answer I got from them did not live up to the results. Ken was pretty pissed and it left me really wishing I had never mentioned trying them.
I personally would use them in a street motor or a turbo app but this will be a memory that lasts for a long time.

Installed the RA seals in Feb.
5K miles on them this past summer.
No hard start issues
Ran 15 psi, 94 octane pump gas, modified stock turbos
11.83 @ 116 on ET Streets 1.77 60'

I have version 2 in my bridgeport, it starts and runs right now like my first motor did at first, fine..I am bit weary of the supplied springs, even with the second set, I had to rebend them to spec before even installing them, they were somewhat flat even new.. That being said, I wonder if peoples problems with the springs just leads back to excessive apex seal clearances..Once it gets to wide, the springs just get cooked and go flat, its a chicken and the egg question in regard to which came first though on tear down...Max

My friend is putting together an RE with a street port and will be using the 2 mm RA seals. Can't comment on them yet, but will update as necessary.

>>RA has sold thousands and thousands of sets
and yet you hear very very very few reports of failures<<

->Sorry buddy, but Hurley Engineering also sold thousands of seals too and it took 1-2 years for many to realize they were NOT better then Mazda ones.

>>You can't blame the seals when theres bad tunning<<
-> AGREE.

I hit 20PSI today after my Profec B install
and I spun the tires when I boosted from a cruise speed on 3rd to full boost
->whenever you spin tires you partially unload the motor.

>>dd the little poor RA seals break after hitting close to 500 to the wheels on that pull ? no <<
Looking at your performance #'s I'm glad to see them holding up.
Keep us updated......

We all know the weakest link in hour engines are the seals mainly when they are poorly tuned or built.
The stock seals have been proven to hold tons of boost and hp.... it's a matter of tuning. Now if you detonate.......the day is over !!!!
I guess we're all looking for a seal that take more abuse like a ceramic but not at their prices!!!

I may even build a spare motor using the RA seals if I find the time. I have the engine parts.

Keep it coming:-)

i have 13k on mine. 9.4 compression turbo II. running 10psi on 89/91 octane. they have survived all the abuse i put them through, including some severe detonation at 14psi when i had a wastegate problem.

pat

Damn I may have just been sold on the RA seals with this post. Do you have water injection? I dont think the Mazda seals would have held up in this situation especially with that octane and with higher compresson rotors and being turbocharged.


Edit: How does the low end feel with the higher compression? Also does your turbo spool faster now?

I dunno, I actually don't see the point of running bionic apex seals anymore anyway, if the motors detonating, if the seals don't blow right away,it just damages something else, somewhere else in the motor.. I have taken apart motors that detonated with mazda 2 piece seals that have survived the pinging, only to find collapsed rotor faces, metal transfer on the eshaft, cracked irons, damged stationary gears, yeah those things don't break and damage the turbo like apex seals 99% of the time, but the apex seals is a fuse, and when a 30 amp fuse is blowing, and you change it to a 60 amp fuse, you just burn down the house instead, you dont solve why the 30 amp fuse is blowing...same goes with the hack and whack 3 mm bullshit... And its not like the mazda oem 2mm seals dont handle the power, I saw tons of cars in Japan making power on oem seals, in every application possible, at boost levels most of us will never run anything close to, and the seals held fine, on P-ports, turbo p-ports, Bp's, 3 rotors, etc etc.For me originally the price was right on the seals with the oring kit, but now I get just as good of price on the oem stuff as the RA stuff so it doesn't even make economic sense to me anymore..Max

Steve Kan just blew his 3rotor car, running RA apex seals @ 8psi

steve kan blew his running only 11.1 afr's......warped seals.

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...8&page=2&pp=15

If they where the revised RA seals
timming was too advanced/agressive
or again he used the RA springs
instead of the OEM's
he admitted he rev'd the engine 7k+

(just a guess)

I know hes 100x better tuner then me :D

Just to add something here

When you detonate or what have you, the OEM's seals
crack..usually in the corner or sometimes in the middle
they then damage your housings and rotors
depending if the seal was pushed out the exhaust port or if your lucky stays in place....

Now with the RA they what warp?

warp? or break?
hmm which one would I prefer when I have a mistune or a hicup occurs in the operation of the Rex like a ignition spike...... what have you


I have a Pro tunner flying in , the end of this month

we'll put my RA seals with OEM springs to the test

22-25 PSI on a 67mm turbo
ported motor "the works" etc

Nah, thats not always the case, I have seen more than one motor with detonation damage with intact stock seals.. It just finally takes a broken apex seal for people to really know something has gone wrong, and in some motors, the other parts were on their last legs , but the motor was only torn down when the seal blew since it is the most "visible effect of detonation, and every motor torn down everyone first sees the broken apex seal, and figures that was the cause and end of it, when reality the rest of the motor is wiped out, and has been for some time..
My first batch of seals cost me a set of rotors, so they arent always damage free guaranteed...
And people have broken RA seals to...Max

The funny thing is, 22-25 psi with a 67mm turbo isn't a big deal. You wouldn't even be close to pushing the limits of the stock seals. I've run 35-36psi on 76mm turbo with stock seals with no problems, and also know personally (not second hand/hear say) of another forum member here that has run 40psi with the stock 2mm seals with no problems. The question when rebuilding your engine should be whether you have the money to buy a 2 piece e-shaft with a center support bearing. The stock seals are not expensive and have been proven, why gamble?

why would a 2 peice eshaft be of any help?

damm forcefed7.. thats some crazy boost!

when do you see full boost by?
My friend who sold me his 67mm turbo
just bought a Turbonetics T76 .81 A/R p-trim

After about 630-650rwhp the e-shaft will start to flex allowing the rotors to hit the end housing and or the rotors housings, both will cause the sides seals or apex seals to bind. That's what the you are actually trying to fix when you have you an engine "clearanced". By removing material off of the rotor's sides and faces you will have more clearance between the rotors and housings to compensate for the shaft flexing. If you use a 2 piece e-shaft with a center support bearing you will greatly reduce the amount of shaft flex allowing you to run tighter clearances.

I have 450 miles on them not hot or cold start problems
I used oem springs and clearenced the apex seals a little more than normal
the compresion after the first ten minutes was 105,103,107 on the front and 100,105,105 on the rear.

Thanks Ray (Forcefed7) for jumping in.

Do you find the new Mazda 2 piece seal to be as good or have same limits as their older 3-piece seal?

Always been aware that near ~600rwh internal parts come very close to crashing if not clearanced properly.

So that 2 piece shaft fixed your problem with seals binding???
->Good to hear.

JD

How much more did you clearence?

I dont have water injection. Stock turbo, stock IC, until spring when i put in my TO4. I do get boost sooner, but not much. full boost around 2500-3k. low end power is about halfway between normal TII and NA. All in all i'm extremely happy with the setup. also note that the detonation mentioned was 5k or so miles ago, and the wastegate has been fixed and the microtech tuned better, and i have had zero problems since.

ps i wanna see the numbers on the car running 40 psi...gotta be nuck'n futz

I'm using the RA 3mm apex seals so it doesn't come with any springs. I'll have to tear the engine down first before I can conclude it was the seals at fault. either way, everything is just speculation.

Damn Steve I did not know your motor went :( Sorry to hear that. Hopefully the damage is light.

just low compression. doesn't sound like anything big deal. It should be a easy fix (simply replacing apex seals)

Well that sounds promising then. No metal shards flying into the turbo at least :)

I had the same debate when I had my motor rebuilt. I heard good and bad things about the RA seals.

https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-performance-77/mazda-3-piece-vs-mazda-2-piece-vs-rotary-aviation-apex-seals-360217/

Check this thread out, it should be a big help. Basically the conclusion was to go with 2pc or 3pc Mazda seals, they are very similar. I chose to go with the Mazda seals in 2mm. I considered 3mm, but I didnt like the idea of milling the rotor and everything, so I stuck with the factory tolerances that are found on a stock rotor and using mazda apex seals.

-scott

Which rotor has low compression?

?center?

Center, i know that the center rotor generally runs a little leaner than the rest because of how the intake manifold is design but at 11:1 a/f ratio at 8psi is hardly close to lean in my opinion. We'll see when i take the engine apart in the next few days/week

Center...thats what I thought. Is it possible to tune for the flow embalance of the center rotor? Can more fuel be added to the center rotor to even things out? Also I noticed that you said in the other thread that you received the RA seals back in Jan or Feb 04. Those were the early batches that had clearence problems. If there's no damage, I personally would try seals from the newer batch. That way we can really see if they hold up.

The ones that Ken used were from a very early batch. I have no idea if that would have changed anything in his case though.

Those early batches had clearance problems. The machining process on the earlier batches were inconsistant. Some seals were machined slightly to thin. Some were overheated during the process of machining. I haven't heard of any problems with seals from the newer batches.

If that is the case then that is inexcusable. As much as that 20 second lifespan of those seals cost Ken it is not much condolence.
Furthermore if the first batches were having problems it was the best kept secret in the world last January when we were seeking input on them.
At the time you would have thought Ken was the one and only to have a motor blow because of them.
Two brand new rotor housings from his Mazda sponsorship that did not live through one lousy engine dyno pull at RP.
If it was a bad batch of seals I don't know. I do know that those seals sucked and whether it was piss-poor QA or whatever there just is not a good excuse for that. If I seem livid about them after a year you can imagine what Ken would have to say about how he feels about QA'ing for them.

Shit happens but I really hate for someone to pay so much in time and money because of someone elses fault.

In January no one realized that there was a problem. Here's the thread with the discussion about the defects:

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...racy+seals+cnc

Start with Tracy from "Real World Solution's" post (third from the top) and read on.


Inexcusable? I think they have handled this situation very professionally.

Hey guys, I'm going to start rebuilding my engine in the morning and I also have the RA apex seals and springs. In the last 5 minutes of reading this, I'm getting the idea that the RA SPRINGS aren't good?? If I have to use OEM SPRINGS, that'll cost me $72 + S&H from Mazdatrix, not to mention the long wait for shipping (I'm in Pennsylvania, they're in California). Obviously, I definitely won't consider using the old ones...........I was already missing a few when I disassembled the engine, and I'm not "keen" on the fact of re-using springs. Can someone give me any input on this???

Brian

I think the RA springs are ok for NA applications. I wouldn't use them with forced induction because I heard that the RA springs aren't heat treated.

Damn............I'm building this engine to be boosted within the next year or so. I'd really hate to have to pull it all apart just for apex seal springs!!!!! But I really need to get this engine together like......NOW!!! I guess I'm just hoping to see a more "comforting" response from someone.

SIDE NOTE: my friend is running the same seals and springs in his TII from the early batch with the numbers on them, and now he's getting compression between 25-90 psi on the rotors!!! Is it really the springs??? Did they ever "change" them??? (I think the rear rotor was 85-80-70, and the front was between 25-70 psi)

i used the RA springs. you can read my posts above about the success ive had.

pat

They had a QA problem that lasted 4 months according to that link. It took Ken less than a minute run time to find that out. Did anyone that bought any seals from those batches receive any notification after they found out that there may be problems and if they had not used them yet that they shouldn't?
So while they told everybody to go out and buy new housings at close to a grand they did not follow up and basically issue a recall. Did they pay for any of the engines that were lost.
You may see it as a "professionally" handled situation but how much $ are you or your friends out on the seals? David ordered the seals and he never received anything from them warning him in case he had not used them yet. That is what I call leaving your customer hanging. I think it was their "professional" obligation to go back through their sales records and contact those affected.

I agree that OEM is the best. Ceramics are good to I hear.

I had old ass OEM's with around 170k miles on them. I made 160rwp in my N/A and detonated wile racing that you can hear over the radio 8k rpm's. It sounded like a rain storm and lasted for 10 seconds because I kept my foot on it trying to figure out what it was. The car was fine and made full power for a few weeks after until I started racing again on the same road same speed (140) and detonated for another 8 seconds or so (not exagerating) but the seals finally let go after deacceleration but still got home during a 14 mile trip. Kick Ass

In puerto rico they run stock 2mm seals up to like 60psi of boost.


Dont waste your time/money.

Alright guys, I just spoke with Tracy Crook from Rotary Aviation and he basically told me what T-VON stated above.....that they are good for N/A and TURBO applications, but they do not do well above "much more than" stock boost levels, or when using NITROUS, or really high revving (like over 7000-8000rpms) like what happened to the guy that BOOSTN7 was talking about on the first page of this forum with his peripheral ported engine. He also mentioned that when he did "testing", that he found contents of INCONEL in the OEM springs which allow the OEM springs to keep their tensile strength at higher temperatures as opposed to the aftermarket springs that he includes in his kits.
So, I went ahead and just ordered all 12 OEM apex seal springs from Mazdatrix just a few minutes ago and I'm having them overnighted--->costing me a total of about $100.
I'd be wayy tooo pissed off if I found out later on when I start boostin this engine that the RA apex springs weren't up to the job, because I'll be running 10+psi of boost on 9.7:1 rotors, so it'll be getting pretty hot in the engine......

^^
Stock 2mm 2-piece or 3-piece??? I take it that your obviously talking about 2-piece, as it would be very hard to believe that claim if you were talking about the 3-piece.....

Fuck....thats not what I wanted to read...sigh....
Anyone else confirm that? Not for high revs now or highboost, and my motor is a bridgeport with a T51s....Guess what I'll be doing next week...

They as in RA springs or the apex seals that are only good for stock boost? Just trying to make sure that everyone understands what "THEY" you are talking about.