Poll: Success/Failure of RA seals?
 

There is a lot of interesting data (both good and bad) regarding the RA seals. I'm just trying to sum it up all in one place. So, if you engine is running strong with these seals, how many miles are on it? If you engine died due to these seals, when did it let go? Please feel free to offer more info such as what set-up your running (single turbo, stock set-up, NA etc..), or why the motor went (chatter marks, scoring, seals warping, etc...). If you have had multiple failures/success, please vote more than once in the poll. Please be concise and to the point.

Thanks :).

Matt

My friends car lasted a couple days, tuned and running 15psi. What a watse of time and money.

IMO success isn't just measuered by weather it failed or held for a certain mileage, this should also relate to housing and seal wear! A seal is crap if if wrecks housings after 5000k even if the seal didn't "fail".

I agree, that's why I said "If your engine died due to these seals". If the seals ate the housings, then please vote under "Seals unncecessarily failed" section.

What actually happened? You barely provided any info on your friends set-up. Which batch seals were used? What was the condition of the rotors and housings before rebuild? Is your friend willing to post on this thread with more info? There are too many people using these seals at that psi with engines lasting much longer than a weekend. I mean hell it's easy for us to create a bad rep for this product if all the failers posted on this thread are based on the seals first batch from a couple years ago.

Mine are running great on a large streetported S4 NA but the housings are scored up badly. It's only a matter of time before it loses too much compression to run well. Still, it does run well and has run well since the beginning.

*edit* about 8-10k miles on it

Pm Boosted! for more info.
HIs housings were 100% new and it was built by rx7 store, profesionally done.
When they tore the motor down, the seals had taken a shit. It only lasted a few days.

Just use stock mazda seals, you cant go wrong.

Here is my take on the RA seals. We have used them in a few motors that we have built. So far we have had problems with 2 of them. The seals warped after only a thousand miles with very low boost. We warrantied the motors and put Mazda seals in them. Due to this issue of not knowing why they warped, we wont use them. RA says that it is due to extreme heat or detonation. I dont buy that since both cars were tuned and running on the rich side. The advantage of RA seals is they dont crack and wont damage the motor like stock seals but the trade off is you will never know why they warp. We dont have the time to guess and warrenty motors all the time so we will stick with stock seals for now.

Jason

so far so good.. about 12k miles. around 110psi s5 n/a raceport no aux. rebuild with s4 turbo housings(35K) Heavy premix. I prolly won't reuse them atleast on any boosted motor.. but N/A I might depending on the verdict of my engine and others engines I have built. I will not reuse them unless I can get 80K out of them in my DD.. And the jury is still out...
I think people should just stick with factory 2mm or anti-up and buy the ceramics!!! for the real experience

both of my engine i have built using them worked fine.. the last engine i had coolant seal failures from something i did i could drive the shit out the engine and beat most everything on the road with blown coolant seals...30 miles to the gallon of water...... DOH no complaints i feel secure with them.. so as of right now the polls are in favor of R/A... blowing up an engine after BOoSTING IT TO 15LBS days into the rebuild....... where is the problem??

+18 or so for failed.

18 engines :confused: :confused: :confused:

See this doesn't make since! There are reports that these seals are apparently destroying the housings at less than 10k but yet, you still have great compression at 12k. :confused: Could the differance just be your heavy premixing? What's your premix ratio?

I did some personal testing on the seals a while back when they first came out. I was very happy with their resistance to detonation.

I built a whole slew of engines with the seals. One by one, they all started having starting and power problems due to low compression. When I took apart the first engine, I returned to using OEM seals.

Recently, I took apart 3 within a 3 week period, all of them looking the same. At this point, I said enough was enough and started showing/describing what these seals do to engines despite how well they resist detonation.

Only one of the engines currently running these seals still runs, and boroscope inspection shows the extreme wear to the internals.

By estimate, its around a dozen and a half engines. 36 rotor housings, 36 rotors.

All of the engines rebuilt with stockers still run great.

And jason deserves much credit here. He honored his warranty on my friends motor and did an R&R and rebuild over labor day weekend to keep a customer happy. Thats good service.

Yeah, I've got to give it up to Jason for taking care of Chris. :bigthumb:

"See this doesn't make since! There are reports that these seals are apparently destroying the housings at less than 10k but yet, you still have great compression at 12k. Could the differance just be your heavy premixing? What's your premix ratio?"

t-von> I've been worrying about this.. my pre mix runs around 1.5-2 fl oz per gallon.. The premix that I run, is made by amsoil. sabre smokeless synth.2stroke.. I've always run heavy premix... hell I even throw marvel on top for added rippen protection....
I don't baby this motor either.. It see's 9K many times a day.. 1st 2nd 3rd 4th... I rip It hard... I'm hard on it for an NA, believe me...
88Integrals and I built this motor on my kitchen counter...well sorta...I was missing a few parts. So a couple days later I took it up to "Grant Springer Racing" personal engine shop at my disposal. I respec'ed and all was perfect... the motor was then sealed by me with a "joint" for ggod luck..
I currently have numerous engines to replace it with, so I'm not sure... If I want to take it to its death. Or crack it now to try and save it.....

The other funny thing... these seals were the one's that were hand ingraved. I bought them back before they raised the price.. So which batch do I have?? good bad??

So is this what is happening to the motor you put in my car?

I'm still waiting on an email reply from you about what you are doing for the motor you built and tuned on my car.

Thanks.

We put a motor in your car?

You have the first batch seals that have warped in the past. You may want to pull the engine apart to make sure that your housings are fine. It would also be interesting to see how your internals look with higher than normal premixing ratios. Did you see this engine here? If your housings are fine then heavy premixing may be all thats needed for the heavier RA seals.

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...12#post4767312

This engine had some serious problems. At least the RA seals didn't break and take out the turbo.

I've built 3 with RA seals and all are still on the road.

All have over 10k on them. I haven't looked at the housings but while doing a to4e on one the compression was very strong and the engine was not withing specs when i built it(oil seal tracks) and was not properly broken in.... Maybe sometime once owner gets some money I'll break it down and take a look at it. That car also pinged audibly a few times on a gremlin with the stock computer.

I have not opened my motor
to see how the housings are

But I've run HARD and I mean HARD
plenty of times more then i can count on
for almost 2 years now

cars starts up perfect
no problems here

remember ping or detonation= warped
I have never Ping'd
of course I got a perfect tune :D

OEM can take some pings
but they can not take detonation
and will cause havoc
on the internals if they crack and dislodge from its groove

Do you premix and at what ratio?

built the motor, broke it in and tuned it actually.

check your emai.

Yes I pre-mix

http://synthetic-motor-oil-air-filte...re-mix-oil.htm

1/2 oz Per 1 Gallon of Gasoline

also use VP racing
2 cycle oil $
when I use VP race gas

when I don't feel like buying the expensice 2 stroke stuff
which is most of the time..hehe

I buy a gallon of the walmart
2 stroke

add 8-12 oz per tank on the norm

Thx for the reply about the premix. You run at an lower premixing ratio than astrochild7. Is your OMP still functional?

Just checked my email and nothing.

Compression tests will probably show the motor to be ok, if the engine is not at operating temps, thats what I found the motor would show good when dead cold or even slightly warm, but run it ten miles then test it, completelly different, car would barely fire, start on one rotor then the other would fire as it got past 500 rpm.. The first batch warped bad with heat, to go from reasonable compression to no being able to even make the guage quiver.. Let it cool down, and magically it came back to life, they must have warping bad... It wasnt detonation or excessive heat that warped them either, it was material choice and no hardening in the seal edge..
Saying you threw x-amount of boost at it, and its fine doesnt say the motor is tough, or in good shape, in fact the sicker the motor, the more boost it will take without blowing as more and more the of the chamber pressure leaks to a combustion face in another cycle or past the other seals into the oil sump and out the oil breather..An engine with excessive blow by and a higher percentage of leak down effectively becomes a lower compression ratio engine..

Mine had those hand engraved numbers just like yours. I remeber because your seals looked the same as the ones I used. I'm still going strong too with some heavy revving, but my housings are not smooth like before.

Another thing to consider, in the "squawks" section of rotary aviation's web site ("squawk mens problem, in aviation slang) there is absolutely no mention of rotary engine loss of compression or excessive wear. Its as if rotary aviation does not officially acknowlege the reports we RX7 builders have produced through our own experiences.

20100 miles almost exactly. for the first 8k or so i was running stock ecu, stock turbo, 9.4:1 rotors, 30% street port, at 9 psi. even spiked to 14 and had major detonation once due to wastegate failure.

after that i put on the microtech, stock turbo, 10 psi. for about 5k

since then, microtech, to4b, 11 psi until about 1k ago, moved up to 14 psi.

stock tmic until 14 psi switch.

Youre in luck tho, i have my turbo and manifold off right now for turbo rebuild, so i stuck a finger inside the exhaust ports. As far as i can tell, the housings feel silky smooth. of course i cant see em, but theres nothing i can detect with a finger.

pat

EDIT: mine were the ones with the engraved numbers, and i used RA springs too, i think (dont really remember)

something else that might make a difference:

im not sure if this is why these worked so well for me, but i did my usual 2000 mile break in
under 4k, no boost for 500 miles, 3 oil changes
under 5k, no boost for 500, then change oil again
under 6k, minimal boost for 500
any revs, minimal boost for 500, change oil again
then let her rip

i did cheat a little as usual, but that basically what i shoot for.

pat

It was mentioned that these seals take longer to break in properly. Pat do you also premix?

oh yeah.. to add to the premix... I still run elec. metering pump.. but im only running the housing injectors.. other 2 are blocked off at pump... I run either amsoil or redline oil... with sabre smokless amsoil...

I really think that R.A. should be addressing these issues.. If I had a plane w/RA seals in it.. I nver fly it... untill this is all cleared up..... and I think I'll start spec'ing my new engine. and pull this one, soon....

i dont premix, but i run 2 stroke oil through the MOP as per this thread

https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-performance-77/diy-2-stroke-mop-write-up-pics-372329/

well...i have been doing that for 10k miles or so that is. before that i just had the stock MOP system.

also, i ran 87 octane fuel until 11 psi, 89 till 14 psi. now i run 91 or 93, whichever one i stop at.

interesting - thanks for the info.

Single turbo
Seals with the numbers on them and before the warning about the springs (so I have RA springs)
Whatever premix I can find ~1oz per gallon
17psi
Water injection
Broke in motor slowly

no boost 3k rpms for 1k mi
3-4psi 4.5k rpm for 500 mi
10psi 6.5k rpm for 500 mi
17psi 8k rpm for 8k mi and spanking anything on the street :cool:

To the people with no break in's…how can you even blame the seal?

I'm wondering if we are getting somewhere with these longer break-in's.

Can anybody who has had problems with these seals (warping or eating housings) please comment on what sort of break-in period was used?

it is interesting how none of them failed after 10k

maybe you should make a option for failed under 2k

Hmmm the plot thickens!

I noticed people complaining about the seals were building motors and racing the next day (oz) or pushing 15psi, so I followed suit [patman] and posted my break in as well. Premix could be a factor, although I think every high hp rotary does this.

Side note, I tuned another motor up to 19psi with these seals (after a break in, shorter than mine) and it did fine and begged for more. My friend sold his car, so I don't know the status.

My break-ins typically are between 2000-4000 miles, depending on if new bearings were installed or not.
4000 miles of very light throttle, multiple oil changes, nothing over 4000 rpm... seals ate housings. Premixing 80:1, 100:1, 120:1, stock MOP: seals ate housings. Stock ECU N/A: seals ate housings. Stock ECU TII: seals ate housings. EMS tuning very lean:
seals ate housings.
I don't know what other variable I could change.

well i dont know, it just seems pretty weird that i and some other people have had such great experiences with them, while some such as yourself have had such bad ones.

i cant say what it is, but there has to be something. i doubt if the seals vary that much.

seems like you loose a lot of emails.

let me refresh your memory then.

remember sleepr1's car that you built the motor, tuned it and it lasted exactly 1600 miles? i spoke with Xaviar about it and emailed both of you guys about it 5 times now since May and left you 5 voice mails on your answering machine. i'm still waiting on a return call or response.

you finally sent me an email 2 weeks ago and responded to one of my emails saying you tuned the car to run at 13psi but not at 10 psi. am i jogging your memory yet?

i'm still waiting for a response as to what you are going to do for me in regards to the warranty on the motor you built, broke in and tuned. seems like you took care of a few people with similar symptoms as I. why you are blowing me off?

We used stock mazda seals in that car and was over a year ago. Car was tuned for 13-14 lbs per Mannys request. It was not tuned for 10lbs so Im not sure what the A/F's were down there. As I recall the car ran great for Manny so Im not sure what lead to your issues. This was all in the email I sent you a couple of weeks ago and that is the last email I got from you. We warrenty internal parts such as bearings, but not seals. Only reason we warrantied these couple of motors was we are unsure why the seals warped and the possiblilty of them being defective.

You want me to help you out when all you do is bash me on this forum?

Jason

They haven't had their motors apart yet.

well, let me put hamper to the breakin idea... when I fired Mine the first time, I ran it for 15min.. then checked compression it was excellent... my car only saw 500 miles.. below 4k after that. I've been ripping it left and right.....

I think the richer it is, the longer they last..

What kind of A/F ratios are you running?

any break-in is better than boosting 15psi on seals that haven't been heat cycled in their new enviroment.

I'm okay with a 500 mi break-in if the bearings in the motor are used or pre-broke in.

yeah me too.

i am running pretty rich a/f now, but on the stock ecu i had to be leaning way out running 8 psi with a big port.

Jason,

My issue is that the 2000 mile motor you guys built, broke in and tuned has 102 psi compression on the front rotor and 85 on the rear. Something isn't right. It could be a defective part like a bad batch of apex seals or side seals that weren't properly set or any one of a few other items.

I've sent you guys 5 emails about it now, talked to Xaviar twice, left voicemails after each email and called multiple other times. I can easily upload my phone records to prove this. Not having heard back from anyone, you left me no choice but to start making noise on the forum. Go back and read my emails it's all there. Or give Manny a call he was cc'ed on each email and even responded back to both me and Xaviar. I don't like bashing people on a forum but what choice did you leave me?

Some of your comments really puzzle me...

As to what I want - I want you to stand behind your word and what you advertise. You advertise engines with a 2 year 24,000 mile warranty. It is even on the receipt. There is no provision for bearings or what not.

Furthermore, how can you tune for 13psi and not tune for 10psi? That doesn't make any sense to me. That is like saying the car is safe to drive at 100mph but not 70mph.

Manny put very few miles on the car after he took delivery from you and sold it to me shortly thereafter. Again, this in Manny's emailed respones to both Xaviar and myself.

As for bashing you, I made two negative comments about your company after you guys blew me off since May. In the past I had left many positive comments about your company. If you don't me to bash you, then provide me with the customer service you used to before I had a major problem with one of your products/services. It is not an unreasonable request is it?

I'm uploading a copy of the email you sent me so you can see exactly what you wrote. It is very non-commital and doesn't answer any of the questions about how we are going to proceed on this.

I look forward to hearing from you.