scalli.. what happened to vintagerotaries.com?

Thought I'd throw some info in on this thread and breathe some life into it. Thanks to Scalliwag for giving us all this great info and inspiring me to give producing a set of housings a try.

The big concern for myself was finding the right material for the insert. I didn't want to pay to have the right insert machined from a billet and happening upon something that is just the right size when you're not familiar with what is available can be hard. Luckily, as is usual, McMaster-Carr to the rescue. Below is a little of what I have found on their site. Taking advice from one of the guys that already posted in this thread I looked for "aluminum pipe" and found several combinations of sizes and schedules to give different port sizes. The pipe is available in several lengths. I'll give part numbers for the 12" pieces. That is as short as you can buy but longer pieces are available. The unthreaded aluminum pipe is essentially aluminum tubing is standard pipe sizes.


5038K251
1 1/2" Pipe Schedule 40
OD - 1.900"
ID - 1.610"
Wall - 1.45"

5038K322
2" Pipe Schedule 40
OD - 2.375"
ID - 2.067"
Wall - .154"

4559T511
1 1/2" Pipe Schedule 80
OD - 1.900"
ID - 1.500"
Wall - .200"

4559T611
2" Pipe Scheule 80
OD - 2.375"
ID - 1.939"
Wall - .218"

is there chatter problems with these housings?

Just finished up a pair. These use the 2" schedule 80 pipe. ID is 49.25 mm. I went with an angled entry to provide more clearance for the turbo assembly. Yeah, it's going to be turboed. We knocked the hole out with a Bridgeport mill. Turned about .040" off the OD of the tubing to reference it and to close up the amount of bare aluminum that would be around the edge of the port. They were turned to provide a .002" press fit. I froze the sleeves in the freezer for about an hour and they went in with slight encouragement from a hammer and block of wood. The sleeves were then TIG welded around the outside perimeter. Took about 30 minutes per housing to finish the insert to the rotor housing by hand.

All-in-all if the machinery is available or you can find any competent machine shop it's not a hard project at all to produce these housings. The acid test will be to see if we can make it run worth a damn.

http://www.ludwigmotorsports.com/Duck'sFBT/p-port3.jpg

NICE NICE KEEP US UPDATED ON THOSE HOUSINGS!!!b

C. Ludwig ,
Awesome job, seems like more people are doing the PP turbo thing nowadays, including me in the near future. What size turbo are you gonna run? My choice will depend on my budget :-(

Hey eatmyclutch, just noticed your signature-thing, I'm gonna be working in Dominguez Hills (wilmington/91freeway) in the near future!

Owen

We're using a 102mm GT42R. Not sure what we're even looking for as far as power. It's just something we're throwing together because we can. We'll see what happens.

Thanks,
I think that one dude in Australia was using a 35R. I am near broke so am contemplating a Master Power T70. Mine isn't a race car or anything so we'll see what happens.
Owen

Does anyone know what happened to Scalliwag? i havn't seen him posting since before vintage rotaries shut down

Dunno. I had PMed him months ago to see if he would make my housings for me. Never heard back from him.

No one has any info on what happed to him. You might check the SW forum, maybe some of them know.

intake?
 

has anyone come up with a decent intake plans for these housings i'm gonna try my hand at them sounds like fun

where did you guys buy a hole saw that will go deep enough. it has to cut almost 3" deep and the ones im fining in ACE and sears dont cut that deep.

on 2nd thought upon look at those pictures it seems that a normal depth one was used... o well ill figure it out... but in any case any other suggestions? i might just pick up a boring head and bar for my mill...

I cut through the outer casting first, removed the scrap from the saw and continued on with the inner casting. its deadsimple

cool, so does any one know if i HAVE to use a carbide tipped hole saw or will a bi metal cut it?
(no pun intended)

From my practices ones, bimetal hole saws will do it just fine. Though they might be pretty well worn out after a couple housings.

thanks much!

I rearranged my website, pics are down.
They are hosted here instead.
http://www.nopistons.com/forums/inde...howtopic=57303

ummmm DRO.... that would make producing multiple housings so much easier...
nice mill i got the same one ;)

I'm going to simplify my intake design, my existing intake is available. Just add a 2-1/4" v-band clamp and flange and mine clamps right on.

I'm also keeping the injectors you can see in the picture, there are 4 injectors in the throttle body of approx. 550cc, but you'll need some to fill the holes in the runners.

i build peri port engines for my team in the caribbean....when we do our own housings all i use is a 2 inch hole saw and a jig on a drill mill.....that works great for us....then i insert a thick aluminum tube which i then port out to a venturi port.

I did my first PP housing today. Using a 2 inch hole saw, and drill press. I need to make a stand to hold the housing, it wasnt easy holding it still. Seemed to do fine, I think when the time comes, Ill have a machine shop do the actual hole. I noticed on a r26b diagram, the hole is at a slight angle. I also noticed it cut through one of the dowel holes, anyone have any info on this?

The R26B housings are very custom made :)

In the intake area, one TENSION BOLT less is sacrificable in the name of racing, I never hit ant tensionbolt holes when i did mine (6port motor)

I feel like dumping my single turbo setup in favour of a 13BREW NA PP setup. I've always preferred NAs...

Any clue if this is livable on a daily basis? Loud, brappy, high idling, horrible emissions and mileage type deal?

I know the r26b housings are specially made. But I figure a hole is a hole, and I wasnt sure with that angle what the port timing they had figured it to be

The Mazda factory p-port housings go straight in from the side and the Racing Beat housings go in at a downward angle. When I talked to David Haskell from Speedsource last year at Sevenstock about their 3 rotor RX-8 race car, he said that they found in testing that the Mazda housings made slightly more peak power but the RB housings made more average power. There is more different between them than just the angle of the porting though. The RB housings constrict slightly as they go into the engine in a sort of venturi shape. The angle itself doesn't seem to be very critical as long as everything else is done nicely.

i have made many peri port engines like this before using the same method..they work just great, I dont know if my racing beat housings are any less or more than my zig budget specials....i know i misssed a few pages here jjust letting you guys know i have done this and it works fine..........actually i used a cheap drill press my first time..LOL what fun that was...

I used my MFR housings as a "template", a few milimeters below center of the water passage block-off is pretty damn close to the MFR holes.

http://www.wankelkim.net/rx7/racecar/images/f.JPG

NOTE: Previous owner ported the fuck out of the MFR housings

I love this thread. it is everything I love about the rotary world

I was just having a crazy idea the other day. Is there any way to use the original side ports, not as intake, but do a form of direct injection? obviously it would take a lot of tuning, fabrication, and a standalone, but direct injection seems to be where engines are going these days. At the same time you could also think about using it for direct injection for water/alcohol while running a turbo. or you could have both.

as I said it's just an idea, I haven't really thought it through

what the fuck was that guy doing with that housing?

I woulda have loved to have seen the dyno on that thing, no power before 9k.

I also wonder what the VE on a motor with ports like that looks like.

What do you mean? That's a stock Mazda peripheral port housing.

Yeah... actually, it looks about what the baseline in that paper I keep flaunting was (IO 100BTDC, IC 75ABDC) which puts the torque peak around 7.5-8k RPM. Incidentally, it's also rather bigger than the numbers Yaw has on his site... hrrm.

Question. I've heard talk of at least two different styles of MFR housings (qualifying with more square ports, race with rounder) and I've come across at least three different port timing configurations... anyone have any data on when the various setups were run? Were the MFR housings supplied as-cast to people and then various teams did their own porting setups on them? Well, okay, rather did Mazda provide data on where to port to; I know that Downing at least makes mention of reworking the MFR housings.

'course, there's the NA drag guys who keep occasionally making vague comments about port sizes and horsepower levels that came from developing far past MFR bits, but I don't think any of them are going to talk about their setups in detail...

Wow, sorry then, I have just never really gone to much into PP housings.

Nice stuff there.

square ports are used on endurance races bringing peak HP at about 8.5 to 9 k
round or oval ports are used for sprint or high rpm aplications such as short road course...port timing depends on fuel mixture but generally it is about 20 10..on the newer housings that may be different and as i said fuel and stuff too willl make a differnce

Probably that's what the guy wanted.
The good thing about PP's are that they can be tuned to make power anywhere you want it.

It's not that they don't want to talk about their setups but the level they are at it takes takes a lot of time and dedication not to mention money and R&D to get there. The NA dragracers dont have anyone else to a certain point to hand them the combination on a platter. The NA dragracers are the ones that are willing too and are taking it to the next level. Mazda was very nice in supplying the public with a MFR PP rotor housing that had most of the early R&D done for you allready. There's notting the NA dragracers are doing that no one else can do but thinking you will come on a forum or read about it in some factory racing, preperation manual then you're wrong. Eventually as time go by what is being done today by the NA drag guys would be probably the norm tommorow for the general public. Instead of relying on what Mazda and a couple of other racers/companies have done 20 yrs ago go out there for yourself and firgure out what it takes to take it to the next level. Look at what Speedsource did. They went out with what's available on the market today and developed it to suit their needs. That's the best way to do it when you have no prior experience with the said combination. Now to take it to the next level that's where the hard work starts. When I visted Seedsource shop so time ago and after speaking to a certain individual there for some length of time he was quite surprised at the power level I could acheived with a PP motor on the very same type of dyno they use for thier own cars. He was also surprised when I nailed the exact power levels they were at because I've been there with the same very combination before. It's all proven technology available to the general public anyway.
When I first started messing with PP motors I never knew what I did today and never thought we could acheived the results that we do now back in the beginning.
Here's a little hint. Stop concentrating on exact port timing and size because that mainly affects the powerband but not the power/torque level you can acheive if you concentrate on intake and exhaust tuning. Port timing is not to make more power and I don't consider peaky motors as powerfull motors because that's just a number on a dyno sheet because in the real world you have to concentrate on the entire poweband the motor has to operate in. You guys would be surprised as to how similar the port timing and port dimensions that the NA dragracers are using to what's shown above in the pics. No secret there. The secret to making over 350rwhp/180rwtq on a two-rotor lies elsewhere and that power level is considered as average among the top NA drag guys. I've seen a particular 13B PP motor make close to 380 RWHP something which I never thought would have been possible a couple of years ago. Do the math if you don't believe me. Look at the times the top NA dragracers are doing an plot it into a simple calculator.

Enjoy the videos.

Quest for 9's
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/a...9f001d9653.htm

Personal best. 10.04@130.64mph.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...89993962740345

Some in car video here. Check the oil pressure gauge. :)
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/w...7d003dab94.htm

Long in car video of a test pass. Video showing important gauges. Run was done without the two step and too low of a launch rpm which resulted in a huge bog off the line all of which can be seen in the video.
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/b...740074e603.htm

Crash vids.
http://www.savefile.com/files/649571
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KgF2C8Rt9c

*nod* I'm sorry if what I said sounded like I was bashing the drag guys... I didn't mean it that way. I really have to respect the work that some are doing in advancing these things; I'm a relative newbie and there's obviously no reason to expect to be handed this stuff on a platter. ;)

I'm an engineer; my way of thinking is trying to figure out how Mazda developed the things in the past to provide a guideline on where to develop to, y'know? In boinger terms... I can look at where 4-valve stuff has developed through production stuff and older racing parts, and while I can't get a look at current F1 bits either I can maybe make some educated guesses what directions they developed in. Maybe come to some better guesses on where to start tinkering (or maybe not!) before it gets to cutting metal.

I appreciate the hint on where to look though... I'm really going to have to just start making dyno mules.

Thanks for the vids too... that seems like... uh... rather more oil pressure than I'm used to seeing at idle.

Stupid question- After pporting the housings, what do you do with the original primary and secondary ports in the irons? Do you just plug them up and if so how? Thanks

Jesus chrisspeed, did i just see 160psi of oil pressure?

This is a very interesting thread. Another question for you. I have read that you have to run 1 piece apex seals with a PP is this true? If so why? They can cope with passing over the exhaust ports why can`t they cope with the PP?

Intake ports are plugged by filling with some sort of epoxy; Devcon being the most commonly cited one.

One piece seals... I thought that was just a bridgeport thing. Can't see how it wouldn't work with peripheral ports.

Thats what I thought.

My idea at the moment is to keep the Primary ports (Street ported) block the secondaies off and run PP instead of the secondaries. This would be on a 13bREW with a GT42.

I would run the PP as high as possible without interferring with the oil injectors but what sort of diameter port? I was thinking of something like 1.5" or 1.25" any ideas?

Several Japanese shops sell lower intake manifolds and rotor housings to do exactly what you are planning- primary sideport and 2ndary converted to P-port.

They also have lower intake manifolds and rotor housings for primary sideport, 2ndary sideport and a small tertiary P-port off of the 2ndary runner.

I saw these in the products section of a Japanese RX-7 Magazine.

I had seen the semi PP that scoot had (both sideports and small peripheral) I didn`t know anyone had done what I wanted to but thanks for the heads up, guess I`ll keep searching and see if I can find more.

Thanks, that's what I thought.

I would like to see some Links or names to look up.. Interesting idea.

Check this thread out.-->
http://www.ausrotary.com/viewtopic.php?t=115759
Lot's of pics in there of different setups. If you thought you were confused before after reading that thread you will be even more. :lol:

PP+Primary ports.
https://img93.imageshack.us/img93/84...intakesnq9.jpg

https://img93.imageshack.us/img93/77...ainfoldui1.jpg

Stock MFR PP housings.
http://www.urbanthredz.com/other/factory_12app1.jpg
http://www.urbanthredz.com/other/factory_12app2.jpg

Modified PP housings.
https://img258.imageshack.us/img258/...einsidebq4.jpg
https://img111.imageshack.us/img111/...eintakeel3.jpg

Semi PP Jaytech Intake Manifold.
https://img139.imageshack.us/img139/...3071010dz7.jpg

Semi PP Factory FD type intake manifold.
https://img527.imageshack.us/img527/...4501140kx1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/fdkai2000/scoot4.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/fdkai2000/scoot2.jpg

Good god ,ausy bastards...stealing Paul Yaws pictures.... I learned all of my race secrets from Paul and to say the least, it makes sick power in any application if done right.(that is the secret( go just a hair and you will not run right...hahahaha I love that.
So anyway www.yawpower.com you can find the port pictures I am talking about. Look at azrotaryrockets.com in the about us section and see the car.

Any way cool site I was just kidding around in the above post but ....Yes azrotaryrockets is Paul Yaw's aprentise Glen Weaver .... Cool P ports check out azrotaryrockets soon for new pport tech.......

Pics I was talking about in above post.

Oh and the last one is azrotary rockets extreme race port next to a fd3s stock port after Paul trained a bitch meaning me....

Still waiting