Ok Scalliwag, where were you back in the early 70's when the Puerto Ricans were working in their rotaries already for a while? I have seen these guys accomplished something done in their own backyard. Here you have to have a silver table because you don't want to get dirty. Over there they put together, test and retest until they see real results in their own place. You start learning about rotaries not long ago. Give credit to whom deserve it. If I win the lottery, I am personally calling you to take you there and show you what they do with what they have. Do you know that they have cars running in the 8.50's with no electronics or nitrous? Everything invented and aproved by your buddies in NHRA.

Wheather they invent the PP or not, hey give them credit for what they accomplished, which you just came up to play the game. Tell your buddy, the Puerto Rican to e-mail me, I need to set him strait.

Damn I don't know whether to get mad or laugh :confused: That earlier post was said "tongue-in-cheek". I am well aware of the Puerto Rican's accomplishments. Think about it, my business partner is Puerto Rican. Sure he talks funny but everybody outside of Texas says the same thing about me. David has told me every PR rotary story at least 8 times and counting. He knows the porting, tuning, and subtle tricks that come with the years of testing, trial and error. I just know how to make weird shit and throw it at him. Then we get drunk and make fun of each other and we are happy :D

I am not really sure how much you can teach him because he won the first ever NHRA Import All-Motor in 2000 here in Texas and is friends with the guys that run Ileana as well as every other notable rotary in PR for the last 20 years.
Plus according to him he taught them everything they know ;) HAHA!!!

As far as me not getting dirty? My wife would sure as hell tell you thats not right.
Just because I have not worked on rotaries for 20 years don't mean shit. The GTO's, Firebirds, Chevelle's, etc. that I was building as well as that mini-monster truck phase had me more than prepared for this game. What I have done in the short time has beat the hell out of talking about working on rotaries for 20 years.

So chill out and read that post again from the point of someone that is having a little fun ragging on friends and the inherant confusion that surrounds the creation of some of the modifications. But I will take you up on the trip to PR if the opportunity comes up. :) The last two times David went I had free tickets (just pay the taxes) because his wife works for Delta but I was not able to go. So be sure to check with me first ;)

I just went through this thread a little bit ago and I must say I'm very impressed. A peripheral port is a dream of mine one day. Have you or anyone you made these for used them in an engine yet? Any news on how well they help up? They look awesome.

Well the ones I made went into Ken Scheepers car and did very well. But they were copied from ones he already had so that was to be expected.

doweling's a good thing to have especially if you have a motor that will spin 10k+ RPM's. my uncle's 4 aggressive streetports, bridged FD, and 1 peripheral motors are all doweled since it sees 10k RPM's. it basically holds the rotors in place/balance if you're spinning it that fast. and yes, these are all for all motor applications running on 51 IDA setups with all that good stuff. :)

Man how did I ever miss this thread.
Your thread just saved us alot of money(fucked MFR housings)
Tore apart the race engine in our trackcar, just to find that the housings were screwed.

www.wankelkim.net/rx7/fb

Thanks for being an inspiration source to the rotary community, Scalliwag

Kim

That is great to hear this helped you guys out Kim. BTW I am scalliwagrx7 on Skype :)
Let us know how it goes.

Kim,

Sorry your housings were in such bad shape in your new car. Those P-Ports are huge!! I love them!!

wow..those are some big ass ports...what the hell is that cracked surface?

pat

Yeah the MFR ports have been modified a bit, I was told that some Swedish guy build the motor, but I havent found out who it was yet, I really wanna talk to him.

Yeah it sucks about the cracked housing, but life goes on and we dont have 2000$ for a new one, atleast they(there was two more with the spare motor) will make for an exclusive fishtank :D

One of the spare housings looks like its in great shape but its cracked by the leading sparkplug :(
I have been playing with the idea of getting it hardchromed and try it out, but with my luck it s a no-go, maybe Scalliwag knows if it will hold up???

Sweet Thread! I've been wanting to do a side draft conversion. Does anyone have a good schematic on how to do that? Thanks, ~paul

throw up a pic of it, im sure someone can make a good guess

Sweet, sweet sweet!
Just one little tiny question...
What kind of Devcon is used? They make a lot of different seal and reparing stuff!

Nobody whom knows?

Devcon Plastic Steel Epoxy

Thank's a lot! :-)

as a high temp alternative to Devcon you can use the titanium based liquid metal from locktite that's good to 400F or in our case we use a product called lab Metal it's good to over 1000F works on both int/exh.

I have been reviewing this thread for about a week, and great job everyone!

Anywho, only one question. What do you do about the tension bolt hole? Obviously there isn't any room for the bolt now... do you just not put the bolt in?? I remember seeing that someone made a very "strategic" bolt, but forgot where the pics were. I just remember seeind it, and the word "strategic" was used like 10 times. But it was basically a bolt ground into the shape of the tube, so it would fill the tension bolt hole, but... then a tension bolt coulden't go through the hole, which leads me back to question number one. Thanks for any answers...later:)

I'm the one who did that.

I don't know about the newer 13B's, or the older 13B's for that matter, but on most later 12A's that tension bolt hole is unused. There isn't one, the boss in the back of the block isn't drilled. I would imagine that series 4's and up are also this way.

The bolt wasn't to plug the hole, the bolt was for something to attach the tube to! You cannot weld steel to aluminum no matter how hard you try.

Well I have a 1991 coup na motor I wanted to play with. I'll check if that bolt hole is used or not. And my bad, haha, I went to your site, and sure as shit, that is where I saw that. My bad, hahha...later:)

6 port engines *can't* have that tension bolt, since the intake ports on the end housings go right there.

On my PP road race motors, I used to get my side housings prepared by the same engine builder who puts in the PP in the rotor housings. Last year, I thought I can do that; anyone can pour some epoxy in the side housings to seal off those old intake ports. I chose the Devcon steel filled epoxy, since the side housings are made of iron. After the usual careful break in period, my PP engine ran strong, winning 2 races and one second place finish, and I was leading a 4th race when it suddenly lost compression on one rotor. During the autopsy, I found that the cause of failure was the steel filled Devcon broke out in large chunks out of one of the intake ports, which wiped out the side seals and that side of that rotor.

I called and asked my PP housing builder, Nick at Rotary Reliability in Santa Anna, CA. Nick has been making his own PP motors over 20 years now; 20 years ago he set a Bonneville Land Speed Record with his own PP motor. Nick said, don't use the steel filled Devcon, use the Aluminum filled Devcon. I am a Mechanical Engineer, and I have been contemplating why aluminum over steel, and the only reason that I can think of is that maybe the aluminum filled Devcon conducts heat better than steel filled Devcon, so it is able to conduct heat out of itself and into the water cooled iron housing better. All I can say for sure is that Nick knows his stuff; my old 12A PP motor that he prepared the housings for lasted over 26 hours, and was still running well when I sold it to another road racer. On my current 13B motor, my Aluminum filled Devcon ports now have about 4 race hours on them (not counting break-in hours,) and I have won two more races with it this summer, beating out the 3 liter Porsches. Hopefully it will last many, many more race hours.

The Devcon to use is marked:
Aluminum Liquid F-2
10720

The Devcon is very expensive. Another tip Nick taught me is that you can use another, cheaper brand of epoxy to fill up to 3/4" from the face of the intake port, and then use the expensive Devcon to fill that last 3/4" that sees the heat of the rotors.

Do not pour the Devcon flush with the face of the side housing. Leave the Devcon at least .040" lower than the face of the side housing. Also remember that the Devcon may expand slightly while curing, so always pour it lower than the face of the side housing.

Just reading through this thread and thought I would add a correction , that is not a scoot housing, that is Takashi Aoki from Revolution MC, who pioneered the cross-port engine....max

What's a cross port? Is that just another term for semi peripheral?

Yeah just another name for it...

Bumpity bump

As of last week the race car spun a bearing during testing, boring story I willnot go into details.

Anyways it was a bridged sixport in good condition, resurfaced and stuff, 120psi of compression, now im thinking its a shame to let such a nice motor to waste.

We will during the winter make this motor a P-Port using the baseline Scalliwag idea.
Maybe instead of using a holesaw I can have a friend make the holes with the Spark Erosion Machine that he uses at work.
MY question is: Would that be a better/more precise method of doing it.?

One more question: Does anyone have a picture of that annular discharge IDA Weber.?

has anyone ever run a full PP, ie like the MFR housings and the side ports? Might be possible for a turbo application. Any thoughts?

Turbo/non turbo shouldn't make a difference. The air is still moving at the same speed, the difference is in the density of the charge.

And with all of that port area, velocity will be horrible.

More weight, that is exactly what I am talking about. Velocity does suffer, I am sure about that but it shouldn't matter that much under boost or does it? When I had my semi pp running (1.25" pp with large street ported side plates + large exhaust ports) my BOV vented pressure just blimping the throttle up to 4.5k RPM with a T51R Kai. How about that for intake charge?

The hole saw is an inexpensive way to cut the hole.
Finishing can be done with a flycutter or a boring head on a milling machine.

Could have failed for lotsa reasons - poor surface bond, thermal stability at temp, poor chemical resistance, vibration?
My guess would be differential thermal expansion.
The DevCon AL probably has a higher thermal expansion coefficient (than the iron/port) essentially locking the epoxy plug in the port.

Most epoxies actually shrink (a few %) during cure - I assume the Devcon is no different. The epoxy will probably expand out, in the unrestrained port direction, during engine use as the temp rises.

Cheers

if you want to make a big precise hole in aluminum there is an easy way if you have the tools.
1- center drill (no flexing in the tool that will determine the placement of the port)
2- use your hole saw, a smaller one though, like 1/8" under what the final hole should be.
3.1- I make my own boring tools, It's easy as hell, take a 1" or greater steel round
3.2- turn one end down so it fits in the chuck or collet of your machinery
3.3- cross drill a 3/8" hole in the other end of the 1" round
3.4- cross drill and tap another hole in the round that intersects the 3/8" hole
3.5- take a broken 3/8" tap and walk to your bench grinder (it's a hard metal and makes good cutters.
3.6- grind away until the thing is shorter than your hole dia (plenty of clearance)
3.7- now grind a cutting edge into whats left of the tap (I know kind of unclear)
It should look similar to a cutter for a lathe
3.8- stick your cutter into the 3/8" hole you drilled earlier and secure it with a set screw in
the hole you tapped earlier.
3.9- chuck this boring bit into your machine and make a hole a few thou under desired
so the final pass just cleans it up and makes a nice surface.
My dad is an old tool maker and he tought me this, we have a half dozzen different sizes layin around the shop.
The end result should be way more precise than the hole saw method and should hold the sleeve a lot better. I can't imagine the surface is smooth with a hole saw, the more rough the less surface area and less holding force.
Making the tool might take an hour but it will make a perfect big damn hole.
If you want pics of a tool like this I can email one, just pm me
john

pretty sexy site!
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...ial_s%26sa%3DN

RXBEETLE/john brings up some points I probably should have touched on.

1. Centre drill the hole true and use a dowel (not bit) in the holesaw.
2. You probably want to drill undersize and then finish with some other cutting tool.
3. Before using a hole saw, I turned it on a lathe to true it up and reduce friction (5 minutes?). This was not really required because I drilled quite a bit undersize. The resulting bored hole was quite smooth but required a cutting fluid due to friction with the hole saw.
4. Be careful when transitioning from the aluminum housing to the inner chromed steel liner - don't rush it.

A few other recommendations:
Some sort of mechanical method of locking the intake insert in place is probably not a bad idea (I believe racing beat threads theirs'). I ended up cutting a matched conical hole and sleeve insert (smaller towards the inner housing) doing an interference press fit with epoxy on the sleeve. They aren't likely to be going anywhere soon...

Cheers

Yes and no.. depends on how you create the intake/throttle body that is hooked to it.
I can lay my hands on a engine from the late70s early 80s.. that is a 13B with a Street ported primary, FULL bridge Secondaries.. adn PP housings. It has a custom intake with 6 individual runners leading to a 6 barrel Throttle body. The throttle body is progressive.. primaries open, then secondaries.. then ...umm.. Terciaries? (SP) which are the PP runners.
The individual runners are CLOSED at idle.. only the primaries are cracked. Idles smoothly. Then it makes good torque.. then secondaries open as you apply throttle and it starts ripping.. THen if you need it.. and are over 5 or 6K the PP runners open.. and all hell breaks loose.
You must DRIVE the engine.. not just stomp it. The catch on the whole thing. You stomp it and I am sure it will bog if down low.
It had a 16K redline.... the guy who made it was a machinist, and race car designer.. and actually the design he and another have created is a winning chassis out there.
The point.. you can control the intake runner velocity IF you take the time to create the sealed runners and throttle body to accomplish that.
I imagine there are too many on here who want to turbocharge it with a large plenum.. but that.. will have horrible port velocity.. as we all know.

Im trying to load up some cool picks for you guys, but i keep getting an upload error message of: the jpg dadad that i selected only partialy uploaded, then it wont actually upload it??? any help here guys? its been doing this same problem to me a bunch lately.

CJG

I am gathering parts to start my own homebuilt p-port so I stop in to check this thread occasionally. Good to see it still going. Since it sounds like there are a few of you who have built or are building these, I was wondering if anyone has found a good source for the aluminum tube/pipe. All the places that I have checked don't stock it and want to sell me 25' of the stuff. Any leads would be helpful.

There are alot of places online that sell short lengths
http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant...owunits=inches
www.mcmaster.com as well

Finally able to get some pics up. thought id share some of my eye candy with you guys. just wasnt sure that you guys new mazda actually did sell both d port and rectaungular ported housings. the rectangular windowed ones made more peeky power in a narrower power band. These were most often used for qualifying and referred to as qualifier housings. the d ports were slightly more conservative and used for the rest of the race where some endurance was needed. enjoy.

CJG

Well, shucks, then why not just BUY the suckers?

Because its cost prohibitive for most. I picked up 3 sets a couple years ago and sold one set off last year. You can call up mazda motorsports and order them out. but its going to run you about 13-1500 a housing. But its the easiest way to bolt together a naturally aspirated 1.1 liter that makes 290-320hp.

CJG

So, how much for a 13b set?

they are around that same price, they prices fluctuate. sometimes aronud 1400 then up to around 1800 per a housing. they are all casted in sand, so they are different than the production housings.

Hm.

Heres a 13B MFR housing with the D shape inlet port.
The other 2 pics are the housings that I do.
By the way, Devcon is crap. I've seen it fall out of other peoples engines after less than a year. I made my own filler using industrial grade Araldite(not sure if you can buy it in the USA) and aluminuim powder for the housings or steel grit for filling the original ports.

So if we build our own housings, on top of that, for the price of a carb, you can pick up a megasquirt kit and throw some injector stacks on there. Slide throttle body it and your good to go, fuel economy AND horsepower

OC94Rx7 and I made one rotorhousing today, its actually not that hard afterall.
We had a little fitment issue in the mill but we solved it.
Pics so far. http://www.wankelkim.net/rx7/P-port/
Will need to make another housing and the aluminum inserts

Nice work.

A couple of questions:
What is the hole above the spark plug?
What is the ID/OD of your insert?
Did you press fit the insert all the way through?

Cheers

The hole is where the knock sensor screws in. those are newer housings.

CJG

43mm ID 60mm OD. The sleeve doesn't go right through, it's pressed against a shoulder.