What will it take (wheelie)
So, what does it take to make the front end of an FB lift off the ground? My friend is making this his goal. All he wants to do is have enough power to make the tires leave the ground (even if only by an inch). Discuss
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It doesn't take power so much as it does traction. Doesn't matter how much power you have if the rear tires can't put it to the ground you get no wheelie :p:
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lots of torque :)
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LOL there was a guy in High School in an old chevelle that pulled his shocks so that he could lift the front end from a roll. He'd get it bouncing by blipping the throttle and then punch it... It'd lift about a foot or so.
Torque and lots of traction. Getting the front end as light as possible couldn't hurt |
You can also move the engine back a fraction of an inch to improve weight distribution. ;)
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OK I guess I should have explained more. What components would be able to handle this frequently? Which dif? He was thinking maybe a locker or something simialar. Also he was thinking about a slight tub. What kinds of mods needed on a 12A? I told him best bet was SC and even nitrous. He would maybe have to spray off the line. What carb? What kind of tranny could handle that big grunt right off the get-go?
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The best reasonable rotary swap he could do would be a 13BT and trans with a Ford 9" and some drag slicks.
A car that does a wheelie without no front shocks or motor set back is generally REALLY fast. A V8 is a good way to go also. |
i think when im done with my car i may be able to..im not sure..it has alot of torque stock..start modding the motor and...i may need a rear end..
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hydraulics :D
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A heavy flywheel will help - it can store up a lot of energy
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Cool, so keeping the stock one will be better than say a lightened steel one?
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It will help provide that initial burst of energy required to lift the front wheels.
Once you get past that first launch, then too heavy of a flywheel will hinder the car from accelerating. If his one goal is a wheelie, then a heavier flywheel will help him make that goal better than a light flywheel will. |
Cool, thanks. He is wanting a drag car. Doesnt care about handling at all really. He is more about straight line. I am more about all around performance.
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The cheapest and probably the fastest way would be with a V8 and NOS. Put an '87-93 8.8" Mustang rear end out back. With upgraded axles and either an Eaton LSD or a spool they are very strong.
Simply transfer the mounting brackets from the FB rear end onto the 8.8" housing. You would need different offset rims now. Racing isn't cheap... and your friend should expect to put in a decent amount of $$$ to build a car that can pop wheelies. Weight is the enemy. Gut the car. -GNX7 |
It is noteworthy that Drag cars try everything to prevent wheelies, as the bottom of the car(a big rectangle) perpendicular to the track is not particularly aerodynamic:)
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Originally Posted by gnx7
The cheapest and probably the fastest way would be with a V8 and NOS. Put an '87-93 8.8" Mustang rear end out back. With upgraded axles and either an Eaton LSD or a spool they are very strong.
Simply transfer the mounting brackets from the FB rear end onto the 8.8" housing. You would need different offset rims now. Racing isn't cheap... and your friend should expect to put in a decent amount of $$$ to build a car that can pop wheelies. Weight is the enemy. Gut the car. -GNX7 |
YES, this is what I was wanting to hear. Thank you very much 13btnos. Also thanks everyone else for your ideas. he is thinking about doing a dana 60 and doesnt want a spool. He grew up around musclecars that could pull the wheelies (non street tires obviously) and so this is what he wants. Something that is just fast. Car is already gutted. He is ging to strip out the dash and make some sort of plate to hold the gauges in. He is also going to put a fuel cell in (probably 10 gallon). I will tell him about the 200SX rear. Dont you mean 240SX though? I thought the 200SX was front wheel drive. At least the new ones are. Not too familiar with nissans though.
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Nope the late 70's and early 80's up to 1981 I think are rear wheel drive with disc brakes and you have to use the third member from a 70-73 Datsun pickup it drops in and the axle splines are the same. The stock gears in the 200sx are highway gears they suck. Or you can use the rearend out of a 70-73 datsun pickup if it's a 1300cc it will probably have 4.88 gears but they are weak and 1600cc are usally 4.37 and ring and pinions are bigger but you need to get the wheel stud pattern redrilled to fit whatever wheels your running stock they are 6 bolt pattern. Also an early ford courier pickup 70's also are better some come 4.62. Personnally I wouldn't go with the Dana 60 very good rearend but also very heavy that's a lot of rotational mass in the driveline. If your trying to go cheap but reliable you have to use the right parts don't go cheap where it counts. Remember drag racing is all about power to weight doesn't matter what you drive whether it be V8, 6 cylinder, 4 cylinder or rotary the clock doesn't lie 10second pass in a V8 is just as impressive as a 10second pass in a rotary. I'm a rotary guy but I love all sorts of cars.
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Very good info. I will let him know what you are saying. Sounds like its time to search through some junkyards and see what we find. Thanks again.
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Torque+Traction=wheelie
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Originally Posted by BDoty311
Torque+Traction=wheelie
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man this is a question i would expect to see in a motorcycle forum.. lol funny.
car wheelies are awesome, too bad when the frontend comes down the car wobbles like mad.. well, as seen in nopi drag racing footage at least |
Let's see, if you look at some real rough estimates:
1400 lbs on the front wheels 8 ft wheelbase = 11200 lbs of torque at the rear wheels 5:1 differential = 2240 lbs of torque at the driveshaft 4:1 first gear = 560 lbs of torque at the flywheel You'll need traction for about 560 lbs of torque to get the front wheels off the ground (or substitute your own weights and ratios). |
with wheelies you also lose all control..better pray you have damn good aim.
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Around 300whp, 2100lbs, he launches at 10,500 RPM, and side-steps the clutch.
http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2004...os/photo19.jpg http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2004...s/photo030.jpg http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2004...s/Photo059.jpg |
13BTNOS-
Do you know why torque/HP cross at 5250rpm all the time? Because HP is a mathematical equation based on torque. HP is Torque over time. They ALWAYS cross at 5250 rpm. Torque wins races... bottom line. A POS 350 with 100hp NOS shot will kill a ported 12A with the same NOS shot. Because of torque. Ian- A Dana 60 is probably the heaviest rear end you can put in a car. They work great for 4,000lb Mopars.... but a sub 3,000lb car would be fine with a much lighter $50 8.8" Mustang rear end with upgraded axles/LSD/gears. There are Mustangs running 7's on them... they work. Do you want to pop a wheelie or be fast also? You should maybe looking into putting a ton of ballast in the rear... then you can wheelie the whole length of the track! -GNX7 |
He wants to go fast also. He is wanting a really fast street car that will pull the front end off when slicks are applied. So, basically what would you do to a 12A to make enough power to be able to pull the front end off? That is the real question here. The 8.8 rear end is fine with me and him. Also cheaper like you say.
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Originally Posted by gnx7
Ian- A Dana 60 is probably the heaviest rear end you can put in a car. They work great for 4,000lb Mopars.... but a sub 3,000lb car would be fine with a much lighter $50 8.8" Mustang rear end with upgraded axles/LSD/gears. There are Mustangs running 7's on them... they work. |
Originally Posted by gnx7
13BTNOS-
Do you know why torque/HP cross at 5250rpm all the time? Because HP is a mathematical equation based on torque. HP is Torque over time. They ALWAYS cross at 5250 rpm. Torque wins races... bottom line. A POS 350 with 100hp NOS shot will kill a ported 12A with the same NOS shot. Because of torque. Ian- A Dana 60 is probably the heaviest rear end you can put in a car. They work great for 4,000lb Mopars.... but a sub 3,000lb car would be fine with a much lighter $50 8.8" Mustang rear end with upgraded axles/LSD/gears. There are Mustangs running 7's on them... they work. Do you want to pop a wheelie or be fast also? You should maybe looking into putting a ton of ballast in the rear... then you can wheelie the whole length of the track! -GNX7 |
Originally Posted by edmcguirk
um... you can have any torque you want with the right gears.
Why couldn't I gear up my 10 speed to do 100 mph? Because my "engine" didn't have the power necessary to rotate the pedals because I lost all my torque multiplication. Why couldn't I gear my bike down and pull bulldozers? Well, I could have. But I would have created huge torque multiplication at the cost of losing all my true power output at the rear wheel and would have been moving about as fast as grass grows. I would have been pedaling my brains out at maximum rpm and not going anywhere. Cars are no different. Hell, all we need to make a car do 500 mph is to put enough gears in the transmission! Bolgona. When you gear up you lose torque multilplication and once your engine no longer has the power to turn that load you go no faster. This is why your car accelerates so slowly in higher gears. |
Sorry if i'm writing for nothing, but somewhere in your posts you have said frequent lifting of the front end, any motor that has enough torque to lift the front tires means one of two things to me, 1st its got power which is always appealing, however with power comes twisting, more torque more twist, unless your partner has done or is considering frame additions, i would stick to a good driving car. If he in fact has or is going to add a frame to this beast it could cxertainly be a fun car.
I presently have a 86 and 87 my 86 has a 13-b and my 87 has been a project car since 2001, presently hosting a 2000 block 327 cu in Vortec fuel injected, with mod perf chip and whipple side mounted super charger, then cars runs 643 hp at the rear wheels. |
Originally Posted by DamonB
No you cannot. Nobody had a 10 speed bike as a kid? Engines and transmissions in cars are no different.
Why couldn't I gear up my 10 speed to do 100 mph? Because my "engine" didn't have the power necessary to rotate the pedals because I lost all my torque multiplication. Why couldn't I gear my bike down and pull bulldozers? Well, I could have. But I would have created huge torque multiplication at the cost of losing all my true power output at the rear wheel and would have been moving about as fast as grass grows. I would have been pedaling my brains out at maximum rpm and not going anywhere. Cars are no different. Hell, all we need to make a car do 500 mph is to put enough gears in the transmission! Bolgona. When you gear up you lose torque multilplication and once your engine no longer has the power to turn that load you go no faster. This is why your car accelerates so slowly in higher gears. I could gear my bicycle to produce thousands of pounds of torque but my legs would "redline" at about 1 mile per day. I could gear my bike to move 100 MPH at my leg"s "redline" but I don't have the power to do it. Even if I go to the gym and do squats until I can press 800LBS with my legs (torque). When I did that estimate of how much torque was necessary to lift the front wheels, I never said how fast you would be going at the time. If you want to lift the wheels at 10 MPH it will take the same amount of torque at the wheels as lifting the wheels at 50 MPH. The only problem is it will take 5 times more power. The more accurate way to figure out how much is needed to lift the wheels would be to calculate how much acceleration is necessary to tilt the G forces so that the center of gravity points at the rear wheels. Much more difficult if you don't know how high the CG is. ed |
Originally Posted by edmcguirk
I could gear my bicycle to produce thousands of pounds of torque but my legs would "redline" at about 1 mile per day.
You're talking about making more torque through the use of gears but yet the torque and power from the motor will remain the same. The motor is the source of the power and thus the torque from the motor is what counts, not the torque that comes out of some magic gearbox. As we've proven you can do whatever you want with the gearing but that has no effect whatsoever on what your motor is really capable of doing. |
big port ona 12a or 13b doesnt have to be turbo,supercharged or nitrous it can do it all motor jus the porting and tuning
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Originally Posted by DamonB
That was my point. Because of this it's completely useless to gear a car that way and therefore useless to imply you can make the torque whatever you like. The mountain of torque doesn't mean anything when you're practially sitting still; the intent is to make the car go.
You're talking about making more torque through the use of gears but yet the torque and power from the motor will remain the same. The motor is the source of the power and thus the torque from the motor is what counts, not the torque that comes out of some magic gearbox. As we've proven you can do whatever you want with the gearing but that has no effect whatsoever on what your motor is really capable of doing. |
[rant]
its posts like this that made me give up hope for this forum. This Club for events "at least local" is as unreliable as a stock 1st gen in the hands of a 16 year old ricer punk who treats it like a Honda. If he wants to pop a wheelie tell him to make a rear engine funny car. If he wants to go fast and doesn't know what he is doing to the point of having such a dumb post he dose not need to be going that fast. [/rant] and oh ya... power = The rate at which work is done, expressed as the amount of work per unit time and commonly measured in units such as the watt and horsepower. work = Abbr. w Physics. The transfer of energy from one physical system to another, especially the transfer of energy to a body by the application of a force that moves the body in the direction of the force. It is calculated as the product of the force and the distance through which the body moves and is expressed in joules, ergs, and foot-pounds so... " Power is everything because power dictates what torque you can get at any speed" how dose that work, that is a X = Y+X style equation. power is HP and Torque and time "rpm" make HP so how can HP dictate torque. now shut up be for you hurt your self :) and now im done |
Thank you for that insight
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Originally Posted by nillahcaz
[rant]
its posts like this that made me give up hope for this forum. This Club for events "at least local" is as unreliable as a stock 1st gen in the hands of a 16 year old ricer punk who treats it like a Honda. If he wants to pop a wheelie tell him to make a rear engine funny car. If he wants to go fast and doesn't know what he is doing to the point of having such a dumb post he dose not need to be going that fast. [/rant] and oh ya... power = The rate at which work is done, expressed as the amount of work per unit time and commonly measured in units such as the watt and horsepower. work = Abbr. w Physics. The transfer of energy from one physical system to another, especially the transfer of energy to a body by the application of a force that moves the body in the direction of the force. It is calculated as the product of the force and the distance through which the body moves and is expressed in joules, ergs, and foot-pounds so... " Power is everything because power dictates what torque you can get at any speed" how dose that work, that is a X = Y+X style equation. power is HP and Torque and time "rpm" make HP so how can HP dictate torque. now shut up be for you hurt your self :) and now im done Power is force through a distance over time. Torque is just force. No movement involved. Torque by itself is a useless number but torque available at a certain speed or torque at a specific RPM is useful. But when you have specified torque @ RPM, you have really specified a power level bacause RPM includes time and distance. Acceleration is a measurement of force through a distance over time. That's power. Top speed is a mesurement of wind resistance at MPH -> force through a distance over time. Hmm... power again. The only example that doesn't have time and distance is trying to pull a stump out of your front lawn. Then all you need ia a big gear and your HP doesn't matter. You can get any torque you want but as soon as you move, you'll be talking about power and you'll need the power to make that gear last until 5MPH. Both torque@RPM and power are legitimate ways to describe what's going on inside an engine but they are really flip sides of the same coin. When time and distance are involved, you can try to talk about torque but you are really talking about power. ed |
Originally Posted by gnx7
13BTNOS-
Do you know why torque/HP cross at 5250rpm all the time? Because HP is a mathematical equation based on torque. HP is Torque over time. They ALWAYS cross at 5250 rpm. Torque wins races... bottom line. A POS 350 with 100hp NOS shot will kill a ported 12A with the same NOS shot. Because of torque. Ian- A Dana 60 is probably the heaviest rear end you can put in a car. They work great for 4,000lb Mopars.... but a sub 3,000lb car would be fine with a much lighter $50 8.8" Mustang rear end with upgraded axles/LSD/gears. There are Mustangs running 7's on them... they work. Do you want to pop a wheelie or be fast also? You should maybe looking into putting a ton of ballast in the rear... then you can wheelie the whole length of the track! -GNX7 |
13BTNOS-
No offense taken. Those cars are fast.. but 90% of the drag race cars out are over 2500lbs I'd imagine and torque does come into play. I don't need to get into any form of this is better than that match.... but like you said.... many factors come into play other than torque. We build what have available to us. Hell a 6 cylinder turbo diesel truck motor puts out over 1000 ft/lbs tq... but only about 300hp. That probably wouldn't be the best drag motor either since it revs to about 3K. But since it does have tons of torque it certainly can move the mass thru its numerous gears. The old school RX-3's/Datsuns are cool... but scary with such a short wheel base. -GNX7 |
Yeah try a wheelbase of 90.6 in. in a Datsun 1200 with 500+rwhp talk about trying to keep the front end down nearly impossible. I've got my cars suspension way overpowered I'm still on the factory leaf hopefully next year I get it backhalved it's an on going project. Oh yeah on the Ford 8.8 rearend you talked about you should look at the 8.8s out of the 97- 2000 Explorer before they went independant it's 8.8 and are 31spline from the factory.
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Ok the '97 - '00 explorer 8.8 is better than, say a '92 Mustang GT 8.8? Just making sure of the better parts before money is spent on this project. To attempt to keep this discussion on topic as much as possible (the horsepower/torque thing was a good read btw) I have a simpler question:
Lets say you have a gutted '85 Mazda RX-7 base (12A). What would you do to the 12A and the rest of the driveline/suspension to make it do a wheelie on slicks? What parts would you use? From what vehicles are these parts from? Are they relatively easy to find in a junkyard? |
Originally Posted by gnx7
13BTNOS-
Do you know why torque/HP cross at 5250rpm all the time? Because HP is a mathematical equation based on torque. HP is Torque over time. They ALWAYS cross at 5250 rpm. Torque wins races... bottom line. A POS 350 with 100hp NOS shot will kill a ported 12A with the same NOS shot. Because of torque. Ian- A Dana 60 is probably the heaviest rear end you can put in a car. They work great for 4,000lb Mopars.... but a sub 3,000lb car would be fine with a much lighter $50 8.8" Mustang rear end with upgraded axles/LSD/gears. There are Mustangs running 7's on them... they work. Do you want to pop a wheelie or be fast also? You should maybe looking into putting a ton of ballast in the rear... then you can wheelie the whole length of the track! -GNX7 |
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