What went wrong here?
 

Can anyone tell me what went wrong here? http://videos.streetfire.net/Player....3-30F27911995F

All I got is, he turned hard to the left, so the rear started to drift. Now what did he do wrong to make the car spin out completely, rather than just continue to drift?

I think what would have been right (but I haven't had the space to try it out) would be, as the rear end comes out a bit, and the car is facing toward the left, to turn the wheel to the right, and give it gas, essentially going w/ the drift. Then when the turn's up, the safe way I like of getting the car straight and in control again would be to quickly let go of the steering wheel, letting the car correct itself, and you're done.

And yes, I do pick up a lot from videos, so that's why I'm asking (I watch, learn, then try try try until it works lol).

Also, if anyone knows what technique he may have used to complete the spin (a 360) vs continuing to slide sideways toward the wall, that would be a GREAT technique to learn. Not sure how to do it though. I'm thinkin, drop the clutch so it's essentially in neutral), turn the wheels to the right, allowing you to complete the turn, then momentum will carry you backward, and w/ the wheel still turned to the right, it'll turn you around to the left, facing forward again?

~Ramy

I'll start by saying.. I would not feel safe with you on the track if you're letting go of the wheel under any condition!

To me it looks like he was under acceleration and lost the backend as he came over the crest and got lucky not to hit the wall…:confused:

Acutally that is a rather effective and much used technique in production based cars with relatively slow steering ratios. In an opposite lock situation where you need to re-center the wheel in a hurry it's alot quicker to simply let go of the wheel. The caster will pull the wheel to center. I've done it many times. It works.

And without your ass in the seat you get nothing from these vids. The car crested the hill, got light, lost traction at the rear, and spun. He kept it off the wall by being a lucky SOB. Nothing more. What was the steering and throttle angles when the car lost traction, what were the G loadings? Without a data stream or being in the car it's just some other guy with a Porsche wanting to be Stuck at The Ring.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.. the things you learn :) It still can't be an ideal thing to do. Given a particular situation one might get himself or herself into more trouble.
I wonder what instructor/school would advocate this :)
Ludwig, you get track time in SoCal?

"Knowledge is power"

Answer my own question. No! You're not in Cali

As someone who has instructed, as someone who has lots of track time, as someone who's won an SCCA race or two, as someone who was invited to test and subsequently offered a ride in a 700hp/1600lb USAC Silver Crown car, I'd say it's an effective method. But then again I'm no expert. :)

Interesting! How do you feel about "when in a spin two feet in"

Stock Porsche 911s are noted for doing what you just witnessed, unfortunately their weight bias makes them a challenging car to bring back from extreme oversteer. I've seen it in many videos and quite a few times at autocross.
Grant

yeah, i'm kind of surprised that wasn't mentioned until now. 911's, especially older 911's, are known for "snap" oversteer. just watch an alms race and i'm sure you'll see 2-3 911's pull that off. it seems the cars naturally like to spin back around straight too, as in this video. you just have to hope you have enough asphalt under you during the spin for it to catch.

as for removing your hands from the wheel, this is also taught to save yourself from broken thumbs. when you know you've lost it in a racecar, you let go over the steering wheel and cross your arms grabbing the two shoulder harnesses. you'll especially see drivers do this in open wheel racing since the steering is obviously more exposed to violent blows, rotating the steering wheel hard and fast.

After you've lost it? Sure. Stand on the brakes and knock it out of gear. What are you getting at?

Absolutely. Once the car gets so far around you've should have already proven to yourself that you have lost control. Once you reach that point don't fight the car any longer. If the car is spinning and the brakes are locked the car will at least continue heading in the direction it was when the spin began and it will continue to slow. Usually those are both good things. If you choose to fight it and there's no chance of recovery you'll just make everything worse.

I agree. I shoot a lot of in car video for my own use and to anyone who was not in the car it just looks like scenery going by. Video alone can't tell you anything about the car other than what you slammed into or barely missed. If it's a track you personally know very well you can surmise some things (or you can spot a particularly bad driver), but you are never certain. Hell, a car in front could have dumped coolant or something. You just don't know unless you were in the car or have data from the car.

That vid is especially bad because you can't see what the driver is doing in the cockpit. Given that people are saying "oh shit" and breathing really heavy my guess is they didn't know what they were doing. As C. Ludwig said he stayed off the wall because he got lucky, not because of anything he did to keep it on the track.

Nobody I know would ever "continue to drift". The back end stepping out? You fix it NOW and tuck it back in before it gets out of hand, you don't make an attempt to dorifto around the corner. That's dumb. Make no mistake that any spin is driver error and drivers only spin because they screwed up. The only exceptions are car breakage or suddenly slick track surfaces.

I've spun more than a few times and it was my fault every single time. You pick your times though. Autox is low risk even at high speeds so I will drive at 10/10ths and knowingly press my luck on occasion. On any road course in my street car with other cars around I never drive past 9/10ths and in some corners were consequences would be especially bad I'll dial it back even more. You have to leave something in hand for when you make a mistake, afterall I ain't paid to do this ;)

The problem with beginners is they don't KNOW. Getting too aggressive too soon will cause all sorts of problems; all of them bad, some very bad. Like anything else some experience will go a long way.

Everyone has their own methods. You know where I picked up this method? From the BEST. Ever watch those Best Motoring and other Japanese racing videos? Don't roll your eyes...you can learn a LOT from them, because the video shots are perfect. Wide, shows hand position at all time, shows the view outside the windshield, and on lower corner, they have a pic of the footwork. I watch, rewind, watch, rewind, understand, then go practice. And believe it or not, that technique has worked consistantly in every single sticky situation I've gotten into. In fact, now I actually make the back end come out and learn just how fast it'll recover under given circumstances. I was just doin that today, and in the rain. Works like a CHARM.

Oh and FYI, the guy I saw do this first was the one from the Porsche Best Motoring video, when he was testdriving the new 911 Turbo (2004?) and as he was coming around a bend in the track leading to the straightaway, the car got squirly on him, the back end came out, and guess what he did? He let go complete of the wheel for a sec. It immeidately recentered, regained control, then he corrected as necessary.

Unless you're an expert (you may be...but I'm not), it's a MUCH better and safter method than trying to correct. RX7s are notorious for pretty much losing it completely if you overcorrect. So would I advise or even try correcting and risk overcorrecting, making the situation even worse? No....not until I knew I knew exactly what I was doing.

Yea, but I thought that was exclusively a pro-racing technique. No airbags, just harnesses, and you fold your hands and relax, so your body doesn't absorb the impact bluntly.

I knew that was gonna be most ppl's major concern, given that you can't see anything else from the vid. I figured tho that some of you much more expienced guys might recognize it as a common newb mistake or something of the sort...something I can make sure to avoid.

I'm guessing the snap oversteer you're referring to is also the same issue w/ the early (91 and 92) MR2s, right? The FD doesn't have that problem? (I wanna find out now before later lol)

Gotcha. What came to mind when I first saw it was this guy: http://media.ebaumsworld.com/mustangspin.wmv who simply looked like he knew exactly how to recover from a spin (you don't get lucky THAT many times in a row ;) ) So I was trying to figure out what the technique was.

Forgive me...I don't know any better lol. So you're saying in all those Best Motoring and other performance videos, they're always inducing the drift...and its never used as a corrective measure?

I've gotten caught going around a turn too fast, and pretty much instinctively went along w/ the drift, since for some reason (don't ask me how...I didn't plan it or practice it), it was controlled. Happened a few times. I haven't had enough track time to really get the hang of recovering from such a scenario (and yes, not getting into it in the first place lol), so I mean...that's what I did. It works... :scratch:

Yea...I figured it's prob a combination of too fast of an entry speed, and then trying to correct too much w/ steering?

EDIT: My thing is, the HPDE's seem to focus on how to do it RIGHT. That's good, since prevention is always the best. But mistakes are inevitable, and I'm trying to learn how to counter mistakes. Ie, we're past the "this is how you do it right..." What do you do when it's past that, and you're trying to salvage the situation? From your first post Damon, it seems like your advice is to not fight or try and correct...let it be and it'll regain control? Maybe I'm crazy, but I'd think there's gotta be a methodology for correcting? From spins, drifts, etc.

Check out the first two paragraphs here: http://cars.about.com/od/safetyfacts...teenacad_2.htm I remember reading this a while back, and I was interested in something like this but at a higher level - where the point was to LOSE control, and learn how to regain it.

You always fight and correct but you must maintain awareness so that you realize when you have lost the battle. If Michael Schumacher himself rounds a turn and gets into somebody else's oil even his talent is not going to keep him on the track. The actions you take as the car is getting away will dictate in what general direction the car will go. Often times you can lose control and yet still pick what you wish to crash into ;)

The methodology is to not let it happen in the first place. You cannot correct a spin. Once the car decides it's actually going to spin it's because the driver has lost control and since he has no control of the car he cannot correct. At some point the spin and locked brakes will scrub off enough speed that you can perhaps regain control, but not while it is happening.

LOL...nice. And you wanna try and hit something head on, not at an angle, right?

I got you. I guess I'll try and be concious of what to do to prevent the spin when she's starting to feel light in the rear. Thank God, I've never completely spun out, but that's prob cuz I drive more cautious than aggressive on the track. Seen one too many crash videos :p:

Hmm... if you listen to the vid... at the exact moment the car starts to skid, there is what sounds like a revving-up noise. I wonder if he was downshifting and let out the clutch fast and the rear wheels lost traction as they tried to speed up the engine....

Rear drive + downshift (or downshift into the WRONG gear) can cause the rear tires to lose traction and spin you, even on a straightaway. Remeber the Viper video that went into 2nd instead of 4th?

i was just giving another example of why some people teach to get your hand off the wheel. most of our cars have no airbags. this particular reason also is under the premise that you have a harness. it isn't really a "pro" racing technique as it is a racing technique in general. also, if you can relax while your car is hurtling out of control then you have nerves of steel. ;)

No. Always hit at an angle. Hitting something head on hurts much more than hitting at an angle. Striking something at an angle will allow the car to deflect off of it slightly so there is not as much energy involved.

If somebody made you a bet and asked you to hit a brick wall at 100mph you wouldn't drive straight into it; that's the worst way. If you could run down it an angle and ricochet off of it there is not near as much energy involved.

For some reason, this vid won't play for me... can someone host it or something and put the link here?

anyway, I didn't think people were supposed to be shifting gears during turns.... just downshifting before, and then after getting out of a turn, shifting up as necessary...

Several tracks require an upshift through esses or coming out of a hairpin (Buttonwillow anyone?)....and a few will even require making a downshift while turning....in general, you are right, you want to avoid shifting while turning if it is possible.

Anytime you come flying over a crest like that, the car will be very light and you must avoid doing dumb things.... :D

Anyone here ever go to the Glen? If so, have any of you ever run out of gear going up the esses? Or perhaps when turning at the toe onto the sole of the boot? If so, how would you changes gears there and how much gas to you give? I'm assuming it's "the right amount not to upset the car" if at all... I know my brother went there in his car and he wouldn't have enough gear to make it up the esses/toe in a gear so he'd either have to sit in the gear until the turn ended, or go up one gear before the turns and just have crappy speed through the turns/sets of turns....

with regard to a crest -- agreed... like at Madness at Mid-Ohio!

Seen the latest Sports Car with the pick of Hetzler's Porsche with all four wheels up? :D

Yea I make it a point to always downshift (and revmatch) going into the turn. I've messed up once or twice, and yep, chirped the tires. Not fun

I didn't mean relax as in start whistling and humming lol. But I mean, you do NOT want to brace yourself for impact. That's a very bad idea (ie tighten and stiffen up your body). That will make you absorb the impact bluntly, resulting in a larger force = greater trauma. You wanna loosen up and kinda go w/ it. Hence why they train marines to "go w/ the punch" instead of taking it standing hard. It's also why drunk drivers often have less severe injuries than those they hit: they weren't aware, and weren't bracing for impact. The victim saw them coming, tensed up, and took the impact HARD. But yea, great theory, I dunno how effective we can be in it in practice - unless you're a stuntman who crashes for a living lol

Wow...see I thought hitting at an angle greatly increases the chances of a rollover, so you wanna hit something head-on. :scratch:

You can almost see me letting go of the steering wheel in this vid. Take my word for it. The manual steering rack in the FC is so slow IMO that it makes recovery of a bad situation very hard. Quickest way to re-center the wheel from opposite lock is to simply release your grip on it and let the caster do the work. Would you do this in a formula car or a GT car with a properly quick rack? Nope. But here it's an effective way to accomplish your goal.

http://www.kyrotary.com/rrxp689/loose.wmv

I wanted to quote the above post but its just too huge. I just wanted to back up some points with my personal experience.

1) better to hit on an angle than head on - I was involved in a 120mph crash, the driver ;lost it and was going about 100(the dash froze) when we hit the rail/poll at about a 45degree angle. We bounced off, flipped on the side , slid about 100+ feet and then spun around and landed back on wheels. If we hit head on doing 100 im sure we would have all benn killed. The impact was so had that the front 2 seats were twisted at obscene angles (one trapping my leg)

2) Better not to tence up - Same crash as above. My idiot friend was racing a volvo, i recieved a text message and looked at my phone seconds before he lost it. i was looking down, unaware. I was the only person (4 in car) that didnt recieve any type of muscle strain or injury, just bruises. I didnt tense up since I didnt know and thats why i was spared painful muscle injuries/whiplash.

3) You can learn from videos - This may sound dumb but i basically learned to drive manual from watching BMI., I had one around the block lesson and all the rest came from watching BMI. By my 4th day of actual practice i was impressing exerienced drivers. thats sounds dumb but im just tellin u what they told me.

EHH just my 2cents

That video was worse than the one I posted! All I see is hands moving faster than I can keep track of! :p: But yea...for someone who's def. not racing a real race car, I use and only recommend letting go for a sec. If you do a quick search on this forum, you'll have pages of threads of ppl who lost control, overcorrected, and well...everything went straight to hell from that point on.

Of course you can. It's no diff than taking a ride w/ an instructor, or having him instruct you while he's riding shotgun. I think videos are BETTER, tho because when you're watching an instructor drive, you can only catch so much so fast. Video, you can rewind, replay, rewind, replay, etc. And multiple angles can be shown on one screen. As for when you're driving, the LAST thing I'm trying to figure out is technique. I'm working on learning the track. Trying to LEARN and master a technique isn't what I'm trying to do at that given moment. If I've seen the technique 1001 times, and practiced it on my own, I can IMPLEMENT it on the track, and just focus on learning the track and improving my time. Plus, seeing/visualizing things helps a lot...

I don't normally watch IRL races but did catch most of this past weekend's race. During on of the few crashes the driver actually let go of the wheel just before impact. Different scenario entirely but worth mentioning.

That would be a situation like Jeremy is talking about. Letting go of the wheel before hitting something solid in an open wheel car to save thumbs and wrist bones.

<on learning stuff from watching videos...>

I disagree... on "TV" you don't get the real feel of actually driving... the world's a lot different behind the wheel than it is behind the TV screen... now, if you're already an accomplished driver, then maybe you can get more (e.g. I understand there are lots of professional racers that learn tracks better by watching videos playing playing video games with that particular track in it...).


Better or not, I'd rather be in the car... :)

LOL hands down man. Just that some ppl rag on learning from a video, that's all. It's a valid source of info...just not the ONLY source ;)

damn... I would have crashed...

This going along with what FDNewbie was asking... is there ways to "teach" someone what to do when something goes wrong? In the instruction I've been given, it's all about when things are going right... obviously, you can't force someone into a spin on the track and then tell him/her to do something... but perhaps there's a skidpad type thing that is done to show car control?

I've heard they do that sort of thing at the Skip Barber type classes....

The Mid-Ohio School has the skid car. They have a Civic, some kind of Honda anway, with casters at all four corners. They can adjust how much weight the casters carry and make the car tight, loose, or have no grip at either end. The car will easily spin at 5mph is pushed incorrectly.

In the end, IMO, there is no way to learn what to do other than to be in the seat. Video games can show you tracks, lines, etc. They get better and better. They also can hone reflexes and even teach you physics. But you're still only driving by sight and sound. When you're actually in the car it's sight and your ass. That can't be duplicated watching vids or playing Forza.

For open wheel cars, and even normal cars at high impact speeds, it is best to let go of the wheel before impacting anything. If not, you can have your wrists broken by sudden extreme wheel movements.

The pros even do it.

Echo...echo...echo...

My thinking was along the lines of a simple spinout not impacts.

The front suspension is designed to do it. Its called caster. The rotating axis of a front wheel is actually in front of the vertical axis. (It isnt touching the ground)

Picture a shopping cart wheel rotating when spun and pushed straight.

I think its actually safer to let go then to correct and spin... Remember the corvette who ran into people at an autocross?

I didnt mean to bump this thread. It was at the bottom of the screen and i clicked it!

Glad he didn't kill the biker.

I used to let go of the wheel all the time in my Spec Miata...the rack felt so goddamn slow that there was no way any human could countersteer fast enough in some situations.

C. Ludwig is correct about letting go of the wheel especially if you're in a manual rack car and if you're not familiar with this technique go to a skid pad and practice it because it's absolutely necessary when saving a big unexpected slide. Excellent save in the vid which he never would of saved without the 3 or 4 very fast corrections by letting go of the wheel.

Regarding the vid it looks like passing the bike took him off line with too much speed which it appears he tried to brake (but probably not with enough finesse) then he forced the turn in rather than dealing the speed by staying of the gas and letting the car carry the speed to track out and beyond if necessary. Lesson here if I'm correct is don't be a hero, realize the mistake and deal with it the correct way by going off to the outside and not trying to keep the car on the track causing a spin to the inside and possibly hitting something.

Wow...was he ever lucky! Wonder how much he freaked out the biker he just passed? Bet he had to hit the binders. Like said above, hard to tell w/o seeing his hands n pedals but grandstanding is never a good idea at those speeds. He overtook on the left which put him into the corner on the wrong side, on a crest and hard to tell but I thought it looked like maybe some negative camber in the corner? Anyway, he was showing off and almost paid for it. Know the track and your limits BEFORE you really get into it.

Interesting topic.

Compare the two videos in the thread. By the time the 911 has moved enough to see the car oversteering to the left in the video, countersteering and/or throttle application should have already been initiated. The longer you take adding the correction, the harder it is to catch the car.

Now listen and watch Chris' video. You really don't see the car deviate from it's course. You see his hands gesticulating wildly, and you can see the car moving farther away from the corner's line, but the car is basically continuing in it's original path, until he gets it gathered up and starts moving back under full control.

This is what video can't show you. In both cases, I'm sure the driver knew, milliseconds before you could see it in the video, something wasn't right. He could feel it, hear it, sense it. How quickly you make the connection between 'aw shit' to 'ok, I need a correction' is the difference between a rather dramatic but successful tail slide and a 360 spin that could have killed that biker.

Was looking thru my old vids, I have a few examples but not as good as Chris' above.

PaulC

well thats the think about 911s because their engine is so moved back of the rear axles. That on hard acceleration sometime you get almost no traction on front tires.

Damn. Back from the dead! I used to drive race cars?!?! :D

About the steering issue... Letting go is the ONLY way to get from one lock to another quickly. In most situations letting go of the wheel and getting off of the gas while leaving it in gear will cause the car to continue in it's current direction while at the same time straightening out. I highly recommend doing this when at a track and not racing. If you're just at the track for fun or for tuning, basically everything other than an actual race, there is no shame and no loss in just stopping the car. No one will see it and laugh at you, they will praise you for remaining calm. It is better to screw up the lap than it is to make the situation worse and possibly cause you to actually crash. Just let go of the wheel and get off the gas, leave it in gear and wait... wait until the car either straightens out or gets straight enough to recover. Once the car straightens out it will most likely be pointed at the wall, that would probably be the right time to grab the wheel and fix it. And remember, if you're out of control and going pretty fast, a car that is going straight will stop faster than one that is sideways or backwards. So brake after straightening out unless you know that there is absolutely no way to avoid the wall, at that time it becomes a matter of scrubbing speed so I advise mashing the brakes until the lines burst. If you're experienced enough, you'll know what effect using the brakes while sideways will have, so do so at your leisure.

As far as the Porsche spinning, it's a Porsche. The motor being in the back is just wrong. Mid-engine = good. Rear-engine = WTF were you thinking. Just as you don't want excess weight over the front axle line, why the hell would you want it behind the rear axle line? I've driven Porsches before, and I've driven trucks with trailers. I found very few differences in the way they felt. I can't tell you how many times, over and over, I have seen racing porsches spin out while braking into a corner. Plus they wear out the rear tires like crazy. Just a bad design.

Looks like he got light in the rear when he crested the hill and lost it. Im not sure it could have been saved.