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How does the SCCA classify a COMPLETLY stock rx-7 in SS with vettes? Ive heard about this, but it just doesnt make sense.

A few years ago the RX-7 was the hot car to have in SS. Then of course came the Z06. You can't bump the RX-7 down to AS because the Vette owners in that class would complain. So... We in FDs are stuck with this dilema for the time being. ASP is the same thing.

What class does the s2000 run in? I think that would be a better match for a STOCK fd. I mean , I wasnt even gripping (street tires) i was practically drifting the car (touring on top of that), I mean I had great control (been driving the car for over a year now) but man does that rear end like to come out.

Whats wrong with running against stock vettes in AS? (what does AS stand for again?)

s2000 are much slower. They would get wiped out by FD. specially at big open autocross courses.
As for the small tight courses, they suffer too, because having to switch 1-2nd gear.
The 2004 S2000 is in AS.

A STOCK s2000 vs a STOCK FD i dont think it would get wiped. I think it would be a hell of alot closer than what the FD is currently in.

What class are the FC and FB in?

Here is a reason to stay in ASP :)
Beating old farts in .25M$ car.:rlaugh: :bigthumb: :uzi: :blue:
But I am not there yet....getting close however....

All NA RX-7's are E-Stock and a moded FB I think goes to CSP

Wow, that's the most unbiased explanation I've ever heard. :rolleyes:

The truth is, the C5 started to dominate the SS class before the Z06 came out- right around 2000. The Z06 was just icing on the cake, but the FRC was winning before the Z06 emerged, even the 385HP model in 2001. The FD belongs in SS.

The FD is exceptionally capable of competing with the C5 in most cases. It's not until you become an extremely good driver will you come to find the FD has a difficult time competing. The truth is- the FD is probably an EASIER car to drive fast that the C5 for a few reasons:
1) It's considerably smaller which means the course is that much bigger
2) It doesn't have the low-end torque of the LS1 which makes it more "forgiving" of throttle mistakes. Throttle modulation is a HUGE concern for me.

Ask Damon how he does against the C5's- he'll probably agree with me here. It's 90% driver, 5% car, 5% tires.

It's 90% driver until you get to the creme de creme of the drivers. Once all the drivers are good your car must have the potential in it or you're going to lose.

The advantage the C5/Z06 has over me is contact patch size, low end torque and chassis springing. They have more acceleration potential than me from slow speeds and they have more grip to put it to use. I stay close when the courses are full of fast turns and transitions. When the courses have lots of tight corners I can't match the Vette's acceleration out of them because I have to build boost first and that takes time. I can match or exceed their outright cornering speed but it's the parts in between the corners where I lose time to them. You should have seen me at the Pro Solo a couple years ago. I'd beat the Z06 off the line and into the first corner nearly everytime. The course got tighter and slower the farther through it you went. You'd see the Z06 catch and pass me every time coming out of 2 key corners. I could win the first half of the course but I got beat to the finish line every time.

Not to take anything away from the Z06 drivers I compete with every other weekend but I have to drive the wheels off my car to beat Z06 guys who are poorer drivers than me. When I ride with them and see what their car can do they should be kicking my ass. If I was in a Z06 I know I'd be killing my FD times at least 75% of the time. Two of the Z06 drivers are at least as good (probably better) as I and I don't get close unless they screw up. Otherwise they put a second or more on me. I know it sounds conceited but I see poorer drivers in Z06's beat me all the time.

I don't fear the C5; I think FD vs. C5 is a great battle. FD vs. Z06 is not IMO. The Z06 horsepower and gearing makes it a very different car for autox when compared to C5.

umrswimr, as for power management I would pick small block Chevy grunt over sequential twin turbos everytime in an autox environment. Accelerating through corners or slaloms while the second turbo is kicking in takes some deft manuevers in the cockpit at times ;)

Haha you think that's bad? Look at what class the turbo fc is in stock.

If you want to be competitive at a national level in a FD RX-7 you just need to put the money into the car to build the car out under the allowances for the SM2 class. Not only will the properly built car give you a chance to win your class but you should also have a shot at the PAX championship as well (as long as the course isn't really small and tight, then PAX goes to the HS/GS cars).

From looking over the national tour times this past year you could make a strong case for the FD in AS but it could be the only folks driving the FD in SS aren't the top drivers and a top driver in a FD would have the potential to beat the AS times (in all the results I looked at no FD in SS would have even trophied in AS).

In either case Fatman you're putting the cart before the horse, until you can run competitive times (your stock FD should run within 1-3 seconds of the Z06s and have comparable times to the C4s) don't even worry about what class your car is in. Also if you aren't willing to spend the money for tires (Hoosier or Kuhmo) you don't really have a chance either. Even the Yoko A032R softs that I run are probably a second slower (but will last me probably 2x as long) on the events I run at.

Does that second really matter to me right now? No, I'm running in SM2 on a car with stock touring shocks and springs. I could run out and buy a suspension and make my times better but I feel like learning to make the stock suspension work will make me a much better driver. A lower and more stiff suspension can hide the fact that you aren't braking smooth, or you're braking too late, etc a lot more since the body roll and weight transfer will be limited more than it is with the stock. With the stock its very obvious when I don't set the car up right for a corner and I'm getting used to the feel, on better suspension that 'feel' is much less obvious and may be harder to learn.

Fatman,

Since you are new to autocrossing, you should try to race in a novice class. That way you can fairly compare yourself to other drivers with similar experience. In your case, you may very well be able to beat a guy in a Z06, who is also a novice. At your level, its more about the driver than it is about the car.

eh...my modded NA FC is CSP. Its really difficult to go against miatas :(

Thanks, I knew it was my first time, I just thought it was crazy for a STOCK FD no mods what so ever to race a z06 but w.e. I still had a good time for the few minutes I was out there.

I've been watching this and the other thread and I could write volumes (although Damon and others have been writing well, there is some misinformation but I think it has been addressed) but I'll just shoot a line or two from the peanut gallery since I'm primarily a track guy but I've dodged a good number of cones in the past few years in both the FD and my Miata.

Above all, in ANY motorsports, spend $$$ on the DRIVER. You will have dozens of cars in your life, seat time rules all mods. That's how my "pesky" little 1.8L Miata on pathetic Falken Azenis can chase down a Mallet Corvette uphill in the esses at VIR. :D

After seat time, I say that stock shocks in ANY used car is a HUGE mistake. I used to think "keep it stock, Mazda spent many engineering hours on suspension, you can't outsmart them". Putting shocks on my Miata made it 200% better and they are stock-class legal. It isn't the aftermarket part, it is the fact that the stock shocks are worn to $hit by the time you get the car and it doesn't make sense to spend $$$ on a stock shock when the aftermarket is usually cheaper.

Bang for buck, shocks are the BEST thing you can do to a used sports car along with tires and proper maintenance. I want to do some power mods on the FD, but I think my money is better spent on a set of wheels/tires (although since I'm doing schools, the logic is to run street tires until you are "running the clock") and a nice set of coilovers.

If you have dreams of winning nationals in SS, you need to go buy a Corvette (easy) or be the next autocrossing phenom if you want to win in your RX-7 (hard).

Since you are a new driver, look for a regional street tire class, which pax'es you as SS. It sigificantly evens out the field. Most more experience drivers will run SS with R-compound tires, while developing drivers will typically stay on street tires in the Street tire class. The pax-ed street tire class is also a great way to judge your skill development against other drivers.

Russ
New Competitor Coordinator
SCCA SFR - Sacramento Chapter

They didnt have any tire classes, if you had sllicks and/or street tires you would still be in SS. There was a stock z06 and a z06 on slicks both ran in my same class. My bad the slicks Im talking about are the DOT ones that have those exacto knife lines carved into it.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the numbers on the side of your car won't effect how well you drive. If you feel you're the under dog of the class, so be it. Just drive the wheels off of the thing. What really counts is how well you drive, not what class you're in.

I don't make an effort to keep track of the times of my competitors, I try to go fast and the times will take care of themselves. If mine are faster, I win. If not, I end up somewhere else. I've put together what I thought were great drives at the time and been no better than mid-pack. It can be disheartening but don't dwell on it. Always look forward to what you're going to do different next time.

I'm most disappointed not when I get beat, but when I blow it. I was gunning for first on my last run just recently and felt certain the first half of my run was better...until I overcooked it and had to back out to catch the car. 95% of that run was better than all the rest but that one mistake killed it. My class locally is a lot of fun because we all shoot for first place. If you're in third and only need a slight improvement to catch second, screw that! You go out there and get first or blow up trying. None of us drive for second.

Another minor problem is I cant even get into one at least once a month which I would enjoy for the lack of seat time. The next one isnt till September!!! Ahhhhh!!! LoL i need to start looking for private groups that do this.

www.autocross.com will list everyone in your area.

It has a few clubs missing from my Florida list. =/ weird.

Then by all means tells those clubs to email the website so they can get listed!

Fatman,

As you develop as a auto-xer, you will be suprised how you can beat over dog cars with less horse power. Don't worry about the Z06s. Within in time you will be able to beat your fair share of them.

I currently drive a BMW E30M3 rated only at 211 rwhp in Street Mod, and I can usually beat car with twice the hp on a regular basis. Auto-x is a much more skill sport then people realize. HP/torque is only worth while if you know how to get it to the ground, by good driving and setting the car up.

Actually, the reason I am on the forum is to obtain info for a 2nd gen turbo to develop into a ASP or possible BP car. At last years solo nationals, in BP the 89 RX7 national championship car was over 4 seconds faster than any corvette or other car. You have a good weapon, for local level competition. Once you get it setup and drive it closer to it's limit you will be surprised at the results.

Will do.


Look what I found!!!

http://autox.carlc.com/er072504.htm

By the way I guess they still gave me a time for going out of course. And I did alot better my 2nd time around.

As a competitive Autox car the FD has seen its day; the SCCA will not move into a class where it would be competitive because they are not available to the masses like a Corvette, Porsche, Honda, Subaru, or any of the current cars are, so they prefer to keep it tucked away in SS where hopefully no one will ever win in one. So just have fun, become the best driver you can, and if you want to compete for trophies buy a Z06, or some current car in another class. Hustling your FD around the cones is still a hell of a gas, though.

a stock TII may be poorly classed mainly because of the S2000 but a TII in BSP modified to the limitations of the class is quite competitive. The two fastest cars at solo II nationals (last year or the year before) were 87 RX-7 Turbo's.

I coordinated an Rotary only Evolution Autocross School this past spring in Florida. We did close to 30 runs in our RX-7's with instructors teaching us.

I would imagine your running with the EQ crowd in Miami. Find Darin Disimo and ask him for instruction he is an Evolution driving school instructor and is VERY good at it.

Keep your eyes peeled we are going to do another driving school this upcoming spring.

Join the MRCCFL we have updates on upcoming events on there.

http://www.mrccfl.com


On a side note. I am anxious to see the hypocrisy of the SCCA in the next couple of years. The Vette crowd is already crying foul over the classing of the C-6 in their beloved SS class. It seems its not fair for the 400hp 400 tq. C-6 to be in a class with the C-5 but its perfectly fine for the 255 HP FD to be there.

It all about numbers there are tons of Vettes in the SCCA so they are going to get better treatment than a handfull of FD's. I am interest in seeing what wacky class the SCCA comes up with to fix this C-5 vs. C-6 "problem". Wait until the next generation Z-06 (whatever they are gonna call it) comes out. Rumor has it there will be close to 500HP on tap.

The SCCA just added weight to the FC's in BP and took weight out of the C-4's because the FC's were "gasp" winning. See the pattern here???


My Mini Cooper S with its John Cooper Works option is classed is ASP with Z-06's and C-5's that are heavily modded. So much fun trying to beat a 450HP car with your little 200 lb car.

What makes the most sense if they don't want to reshuffle the entire deck of stock classes is to put the C6 on the stock exclusion list. That would solve the lack of tire problem too because any class but stock would allow them to change wheel sizes.

Will it happen that way? Hell no ;)

I am unaware of any SS class complaints about the up and coming C6. Quite frankly, the C6 doesn't scare me. The C6 Z06 will undoubtedly change that view .... but that's the nature of Super Stock. Something new and better designed/engineered comes out and knocks down the top dog. But, after seeing the test drive results on the C6 Z51 and the specs on it, it's not going to be an issue, IMO.


Take a closer look at the margin of victory between the BP champion FC and the other competitors. It's not a question of Corvette vs. RX-7 ... the fact is that the FC is a dominant because of its much lower weight capabilities. They are "trying" to even out the field.


Mini Cooper are actually quite heavy ... 2900ish lbs in stock trim. But, the size of the car makes it MUCH easier to navigate through an auto-x course than a C5. Take a look at the two side-by-side. The C5 looks to be almost twice as big! Nevertheless, the classing for the Works Mini is a quagmire. Where else do you put it? Until someone campaigns one and cries foul, it won't move.

As far as Corvettes in general, Corvettes tend to be one of the largest SCCA constituents. More Corvette drivers mean more member comment and the most noise from a particular faction. Hence, they seem to get preferential treatment. If enough RX-7 owners wrote in and loudly complained about the classing, I think there would be some consideration. But, as I've found (when I had my FD), there are not that many avid RX-7 auto-xers .... at least not ones that actively show up an events.

The winner of the BP class fo rthe last 3 years was an amazing driver. I thought we established on the first page of this thread that it was 90% driver. Steve O'Bleens proved that. He is nothing short of amazing and whatever car he shows up in will be a winner. He sold the FC BTW so BP is up in the air.

I agree with you 110% the Vette crowd in the SCCa is giant and has a LOT of pull. Its just frustrating to watch to rules bend in favor of them.

My JCW does not have a snowballs chance in hell against a Z-06. Period... The classing was done for political reasons. I was told this from a SCCA officer who tried to fight the classing of the car. The good news is I bought my JCW for daily driving duties and only Autocross it for yucks. Again its all about the driver because I can come pretty close to the Vettes with it but that is on a very short tight course any kind of straightaways and I am toast.


Fatman0203 Come to the next SCCA event in Ft. Pierce its a bit of a drive but we are only getting 40 cars and about 20 runs in and wrapping up by 2:00.
I will keep you in mind for a private Autocross day I am setting up too. We will have about 10 cars and probably 40+ runs talk about seat time.

The SCCA rots... You'll never learn only doing events. I find practice days are empty because there is no $5 plastic trophy to get. I skip the Events most of the time and just attend the practice days on Saturday purely to get the seat time.

Come to Ft. Pierce the seat time alone is worth the drive.

Here is a PDF for the August 28th practice day followed by the trophy day on Sunday. You'll get 10-20 runs in each day.

http://www.cfrsolo2.com/Flyers2004/f...cc08282904.pdf

Hope to see you there its always cool to see more rotary cars. We usually have 2-4 RX-7's there.

Sounds good Jim, 2 1/2 hour drive isnt that bad, i ususally do that just to go to Sebring to WATCH not even participate. Depending on which FD i decide to take I will determine what to do. Are you classing anything? Or is this just pure practice. Im perfectly fine with pure practice btw.

BTW: Is this the Jim that was at Mazda Rev It Up? If so, I was the Red FD remember!? This sounds good, keep me posted!

Classing decisions do factor in the desire to have good participation, but there is not deliberate marque favoritism. Besides performance level, availability is also factored into classing.

You're right, your JCW does not have a chance in ASP. That's not really the point. The point is that the kit is installed at the dealer, and dealer installed options have long been regarded as beyond Stock class as they would be next to impossible to police. I don't understand where the politics comment came from and the "SCCA officer" probably doesn't understand the issue.

-Andy

Hey Javi!! Yeah this is Jim from the Rev-it-up. You are racing with Equipe Rapid correct?? Find Darrin Desimo and mention Jim with the stupid fast black RX-7 from Evolution school. He will remember me he loved the car. He is an awesome instructor and could teach you so much in 3 to 4 runs.

Come up to the next Ft. Pierce event and I can help you too. I have taken so many of their schools I could teach one now. LOL..

Plus we are toying with a private Evolution day with 10-12 cars your in for that one I am saving a spot for you. You will get so many runs you'll be exhausted.

Impossible to get exhausted. Alright man so the next event is in August? Sounds good , I guess I'll try to make sure the car is ready for it. Thanks.

I tend to agree... There's no way to make it 100% perfect unless you give every car it's own class.
To date, I know of no C5 drivers "complaining" that the C6 is in the SS class. Mostly because it has not, to my knowledge, BEEN classed. Take a look at this thread: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=867461

It's probably a safe bet that it WILL end up in SS. Is that a bad thing? Not really. The new C6 will have larger diameter wheels (bad), more power (good), shorter gearing (good), and a narrower stance (good) than the current Z51 equipped C5. Will it end up dethroning the Z06? It'll be close, but I don't suspect a rout by any stretch of the imagination.

I know I welcome the competition.

As for the "conspiracy theory"... :rolleyes:

Corvettes have a lot of "pull" in the SCCA simply because there are so many of them, they are easily available to drivers, and therefore create big numbers in their classes at events. There is power in numbers. The same for the Miatas, Subarus, Honda S2000 and the other cars that always show up in big numbers. If you mess with the Corvette classing you run the risk of many people staying away from events, and that's the the last thing the SCCA wants. The FD would have just as much clout if the car was still in productin and they had sold over 300,000 units or so. The SCCA wants to make sure that if a particular car wins a lot and is perceived as being the hot car to have in a specific class then anyone who wants one can go out their dealerships and buy it. Otherwise, everyone in SS would feel like we do, left out and shunned by the SCCA.

Just make a cheater RX-7, gut the pre-cat, catback, weld aftermarket springs, dot approved slicks, port the motor lightly to get a few horses, intake, anything from the rulebook, and anything else and anything they cant check. =P Sure your cheating but at the same time your pissing off alot of Corvette owners ;)

All the Z06 guys who used to run RX-7s would know the minute you came through the gate.

This is not a sport where points make the difference in payout. There is no payout. Sure you might win a couple free tires here or there ... but in the scheme of things, that's droplets in the bucket. In the end, it's still mostly about driver skill. Cheating to prove that you're a better driver? Kinda back asswards, eh?

And like Finky said, most of us former FD owners can sniff out all the cheater mods done on a stock car. Even on a street prepared car.

It wasnt meant to be taken seriously, more sorta as a joke. I just dont know how you could tell a car with a very mild port, where not even idle is effected. Plus other mods. I know it doesnt make a big difference with points and or the prize. Just fun to bring down the "cocky" z06 owners every once in a while, to let them know where the ground is. Get them off that high horse.

You've been to one autocross and you're already stereotyping others?

Anybody running in a stock class who is any good is going to know exactly how to tell if you're car is legal. Locally people aren't going to care much but god help you if you show up in Topeka. Cars are not inspected by anyone ahead of time to ensure they are legal (though if I notice something teching a car I will inform the driver). Your competitors are the ones who will protest your car and then it is your responsibility to prove that your car is in fact legal. If you can't, you get DQ'd; end of story :( This is also why your car is impounded immediately after competition: It gives the guys you beat a chance to examine your car for anything that shouldn't be there...

Ive "raced" one , Ive been to alot more than one. Thats like saying EVERY 3rd gen owner is cocky, this is not true. Its just part of the population. Thats what I meant by my comment. Relax, your not one of them .... yet ;)

Either way, you've got a long way to go if you've only attended one auto-x. If you really knew how good a Z06 is, you'd be a little cocky too.

BTW, the mild port actually hurts a stock car. Porting decreases your low end torque ... something an RX-7 is already lacking in to begin with. Porting only helps when you are allowed to play with boost.

ok :rolleyes:
Ive only "raced" one auto-x , ive been to countless auto-xs to watch and track events. Ive ridden with a few good drivers too. But thanks.

Regardless- The point I think we're trying to make: The FD IS a very capable car and it CAN be competative at all levels, though the top levels will start to favor the C5. For most autocross events, the driver is BY FAR the limiting factor. I know I'm not even close to extracting the full potential of this thing....

I keep reminding myself that I'm racing an 11 year old completely stock car against brand new cars and beating a bunch of them. It must have really been something to run on of these back in 93-95 when they were new, no wonder the C4 Corvette boys are still scared of them. I suppose back then the FDs were the Z06s of the their day, and everybody hated them and wanted to get them out of their class just like we do with the Z06s.