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For safety, run the bars. Bars can always be removed at a later date. What you could do is add a plate on the driver's side of bulkhead, bore a hole in the middle of the plate. Run the tube through the bulkhead plate to the towers. That way if you ever have to remove the forward part of the tubes, you could cut them from the engine side of the bulkhead and towers and the driver's compartment would be unaffected. You would have to trim the tube close to the bulkhead and cover with a small patch. Remember to weld up the tube to the bulkhead from inside driver's compartment.
This procedure affords a little more protection in the footbox area due to the fact the bulkhead is also attached to the forward tube. |
Here is a link to the cage I just installed in my car. 10 point.
http://www.torquecentral.com/showthr...017#post253017 This was my first cage install I think I did pretty good. I would post the pics here but they are to big for this forum. |
What diameter and wall thickness did you use? I guess this is for drag racing? Clean fit! :bigthumb:
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Thanks.
it is 1.75 DOM tubing with a wall thickness of .134 The .134 is because it has to be certified and the minimum is .120 which tube is not uniform so you may have areas that arent .120. Yes it is for drag racing. |
That is quite a weight penalty to take for using ERW tubing. If you went to DOM, you could have used .125" and had plenty of extra material thickness for the .118" rule.
Could have saved more by using the 1 5/8"x.125" for main cage and 1 1/4"x.125" harness bar. But, if you are not trying to get the FD as lean as possible, it is ok! Still, nice job! Keep up the good work! |
It is DOM tubing. Not ERW. The extra thickness of the walls is no biggie probably adds a a few pounds.
Also the small main hoop and harness bar I could have gotten smaller but: A) I think it looks better all the same size B) It is easier to fit it if they are all the same size C) The bends were already made I just fit them and welded them in so I didnt have a ton of choice. The car is VERY light, probably one of if not the lightest FD out there, short of tubing the front end or backhalving. |
Originally Posted by cagedruss
Hey Scott,
I see you are a Mopar guy. I am finalizing a long term project after many years for a good friend. Josh is aware of the car. It is a 66 Fury III. I have been waiting for the engine to get here for the past year so I could finish her. Car has been mini tubbed, relocated leaf springs inboard, left room for the biggest drag radial tire made with 2" clearence for a bigger slick if wanted. Engine is a bored and stroked poly head 318, I think CID is close to 350 now. Engine dyno'ed with a sigle 4 barrel at 440 horse at 5500rpm. Project HP's is around 500. Has custom pistons, rods, cam. Has dual carb custom sheet metal manifold, custom headers, 727 trans with brake. Has 100 shot of Nos, all the bling a new car should have. Installed new Dana 60, disc brakes all the way around. Finishing interior now with a custom Aluminum dash inserts and a full console. All electrical is in the console except lights for the dash guages. all replated interior chrome, new cage, all new glass and will have leather interior. I gutted all heavy parts such as factory dash pods and lightened up the bumpers, hood and deck lid. Car was extremely over weight. When I am done I will post some pics. I'm pretty sure that engine has a 3.79" stroke crank so it's 369ci at .030" overbore. There is a dual quad intake and 2 nitrous plates for the motor last time I checked. Glad to hear the motor is finally running. I guess Mr. Ross got some work done. Speed Raycer (Scott), Ah, ha! I know that car! Mopax wouldn't kick me to the curb. I'm one of the original 10 or so members. I still have my '72 Swinger that I've yet to drive so I'm not completely without a real Mopar ride, other than my '72 B300 van that is. I'm having a house built and once it's done I'll be able to get back to work on the car. The car has a little B&M PowerCharger on a mild 360 that I haven't even fired up. The car has good shocks, springs, sway bar, etc. Once it's driving and the paint and body are done it should make for a nice driver. |
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Josh,
350 or 360 what ever, it was dynoed originally with a single carb and of course no NoS. Dick hasn't done anything with it. It has been over at the "Garage" in Vancouver, USA. Dan Maples has gone completly through it, needed new pistons and rings. Has a new Sheet metal fabbed intake and a matched set of high dollars custom Holleys and some extras you have not seen yet. Should have it here in a week or so. LT1RX7, It is DOM tubing. Not ERW. The extra thickness of the walls is no biggie probably adds a a few pounds. I am not bashing you cage, looks cool! I was just adding a little critique offering others interested in Custom cages a little knowledge so they know they have some options. |
No Bash taken.
Huh, I thought they said it was DOM but I looked on their site and it didnt say anything about DOM so I guess you are right. Oh well no biggie, I am happy with it and what it cost as long as it is strong enough to pass tech and save my life I am happy with it. I knew DOM was more consistant. How much weight do you guess I could have saved with DOM tube? |
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here are a few pics of my drag rx7
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few others
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Sweet! :bigthumb: Need more V-8's! Looks like it will be a short wheelbase handfull. Very cool!
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found these pictures on an old disc, thought I would share!
Last 2 Camaros the City of Portland purchased for Police cars, both are used in the Traffic Division. Marked car is obvious, other car is a All Black with hidden strobes and lights inside car. Car is totally invisble and used for being sneaky. |
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Here is the Undercover Car! I can't show the Actual, they asked me nicely not to.
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Originally Posted by cagedruss
Josh,
350 or 360 what ever, it was dynoed originally with a single carb and of course no NoS. Dick hasn't done anything with it. It has been over at the "Garage" in Vancouver, USA. Dan Maples has gone completly through it, needed new pistons and rings. Has a new Sheet metal fabbed intake and a matched set of high dollars custom Holleys and some extras you have not seen yet. Should have it here in a week or so. |
Russ... Why the two different rear brace mounts? Keeping the black car stealth/sleeper? Very nicely done on both!
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Stealth! They have all the windows tinted and didn't want anybody from the backside see the bars when the interior lights were on. All Police cars do have bars, so it was important to keep them tucked and hidden.
Thanks, by the way! |
Rx7
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Hey guys, doing a RX7 cage for a customer. Working all day on the rear, lucky for me my Daughter wanted to help. Nice to have an energetic 11 yr old around. She did all the measuring and help cut the material. Thought I would show a few pics, remember, this is in its infant stage and is still dirty and not final prepped.
The rear is attached to a 10"x8" plate attached to the shock mounts and the crossmember piece just forward. The lower "X" is attached the forward member and the rear support tubes attached to the spring perches with an 1/8" flat plate welded to all of the bars in the configuration. Really stiffens up the whole rear area and ties it all together. Will add more when I get the front half installed with door bars. |
Great work there.. makes it easier deside how to do it on my own.. =)
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I want to be able to do dimple-die work like that between some of the tubes and the chassis, like on the A-pillars.
Are the tools expensive, or is it hard to do? |
not to expensise, but make sure your class allows it. If you are roadracing they consider it a attachment point not an gusset. Any other form of racing should be ok. I made mine, most only work for sheet metal, not .125" plate. I use a press and it works awesome.
Can buy them from Mitler Bros. in North Carolina in all different sizes. |
Wow Russ... that's some pretty extreme tube work on the back of that car. I guess if you want to get the springs and shocks tied into the cage you gotta do it. I also noticed that your welds look a bit more professional than mine... very pretty.
BTW... I ran my car thru tech for both SCCA and ICSCC and the cage passed with flying colors... no complaints about anything. It trophy'd twice so far in RS class at Pacific Raceways. |
Originally Posted by cagedruss
Can buy them from Mitler Bros. in North Carolina in all different sizes.
I believe it's www.mittlerbros.com |
You are correct, I was thinking of Irwin-Smith, they are in N.C.
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I have a few more pics of the 84 I am doing, going slower that I would like. Fitted the dash and a-pillar bars yesterday. Today will be door bars, cutting of door and refitting dash and components. Damn A-pillars bars in the 1st gens curve out away from the a-pillars bars, Really annoys me. Most other cars are straight or curve in a bit. Really like to try to keep everything tight to the lower kick panel and a-pillar with only 1 bend in the tube. Oh well, can't be perfect ;) all the time!!
I really must apologize for the quality of the pics, if I only new somebody that was an accomplished Photographer! |
Ooo, you've got a lathe. Nice. :)
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Here is a couple of more pics on the Pro 7. Promise to have it done tomorrow. List gets bigger everyday to finish it off.
There has to more people out there that has not posted pics of their race car cages, please share! |
CAGEs
Your welding 1020 (mild steel-cold roll) to 4130 (chrome-moly)? I always though that was a big no no. How are you normalizeing the 4130 welds? DICK.
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This is a 1020 cage (mild Steel).
ER70S-2 is highly recommended for welding 4130 chrome-moly tubing in many applications since you can't easily put an entire car into an autoclave to control the heat and cooling, you are better off to use the above material. ER80S-D2 is recommended for welding 4130 chrome-moly tubing if a higher strength, less ductile weld is required. ER80S-D2 filler metals contain a high level of deoxidizers (Mn & Si) to control porosity when welding with Co2 as the shielding gas, and molybdenum for increased strength. If your weld will be heat treated to obtain optimum strength, then use a filler metal which matches the chemistry of your tubing, which neither 70S-2 nor 80S-D2 wires do. Surprisingly, only 2.3% of Chrome and Mollybenduim alloy material is added to give this 4130 its superior strength. |
Roll Over Cage
ONE of the reasons to add a cage to any car, is to add rigidity to that car. That stated, why do SCCA cage builders do not make the cage symmetrical? Your own car has NASCAR bars on the drivers side and an X bar on the passanger side. Now everthing I learned in school tells me the car will flex differently when put through a right turn and then a left turn. Look at a NASCAR road race car and you will see both sides of the cage look pretty much the same except the "PETTY" bars. Looks like to me, you would want the door bars of both sides of the car to be the same, reguardless of their shape. Both Nascar or both X bars, but not one of each. If your building an IT car, you need as much rigidity as you can get IMHO. After all, without a frame, the car is just one big torsion bar to start with. Help it all you can please. DICK.
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You are correct, but most cars do not have the same door bars on both sides. SCCA regulates door bars per class. I am not allowed to open the passenger side door to put in the NASCAR type bars. I am allowed on the driver's side.
The reason for the door bars is to protect the driver in a side impact. Cage is meant to protect driver first and foremost, not to gain advantage for chassis stiffness. I do believe it is actually a rule in this class. I am gaining chassis rigidity through the main hoop, which is also the foundation for the cage. With the rest of the cage installed he will notice a big difference in chassis stiffness. I could have added a x on the driver's side along with the side protection, but I did not want to add the extra weight to the left side of the car. I would prefere to go through a side impact with these door bars over an "X" bar anytime. I worked on the Driver's door aluminum panel today, spent to much time on it. My loss is Rick's gain. |
Roll Along Cage
There are MANY people out there who think that a SCCA NASCAR type door can hurt you more in a side impact than a X bar because its not really a NASCAR bar to start with. Its only tied to the cage at each end, and will fold inward if hit in a side impact. Very few PRO/TOURING road race cars have Nascar bars. Almost all have X bars on both sides. Hey I watch them on FOX SW all the time. But then they don't have SCCA rules do they. DICK.
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If the door bars are 44" wide, and the x is flat and is 44" wide, it will bend through out the whole 44". The NASCAR bars are 44" at the mounting points and usually about 24" wide between the bends. Load is transfered throughout the flat to the bent bar at the attaching point. Much stronger, plus it is 4-10" further away from the driver's seat. May not be an actual 4 bar NASCAR bar with uprights every 8-10" and tied into the main frame rail, but it is better than nothing. If more people bitched to the Sanctioning bodies to allow more attaching points, things may actually change.
I have seen both in impacts and would argue that the people who say it is worse needs to investigate it further. All fast classes are now required, like GT and Touring. Most likely all IT car will be required to do so in a few years. I really need to have somebody explain how a straightline _________ is better for side impact than a \______/. |
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Here are some examples from Rolex Sports cars built from around the world. As you see there are X's and NASCAR. X's sre for frontal impact and NASCAR for side impact!
These are in BMW's, Porches, and Corvettes. |
The main reason most proponants of the X bar over the nascar bar site is that \_____/ can become _/-------\_ with enough force. There is enough material there to be bent inward as much as outward. With the X, there's no additional material to be bent before the impact pulls on the main hoop.
There is a great discussion on X vs Nascar bars on the sr20 Nissan board... I'll find the link if I can. Russ, you are a wealth of info. This has become one of the better cage threads on the web. |
more attachment points needed
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I agree with you, Russ. We should be allowed to tie the door bars into the door sill/frame rail. I tied my door bars into the door sill for more crash protection. This changed my 8 pt cage to a 10 pt cage. I originally built the car for circle track where that wasn't an issue. (In fact, most upper class stock car rules require this.) When I got tired of replaceing body panels and struts every week I switched to SCCA & Conference racing. The extra attachment points could be an issue if pressed, but the inspectors approved the cage as built without comment.
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All depends on which class you are running. ITE, Prod, and SP all allows it.
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Back when Super Touring was running here, a friend had a car that had been built in England for Honda's effort there. The car had and X in the drivers side and attached to it was a really cool, hi-tech carbon fiber over honeycomb crash absorbing 'pod'. Any body know if something like this is available still? Or do I have to fire up my autoclave and make my own? :D
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...Picture009.jpg
Nothing too special, everything will be painted soon. |
ROLLING on cages
Now thats GREAT NASCAR door bars. Best I've seen in a long time. Whats on the other side of the car? Whats not good is the window net POP riveted to the upper bar. POP rivets require holes, and thats a no no even at our local dirt track. Show us some more pictures of the cage. DICK.
Originally Posted by jimeby
I agree with you, Russ. We should be allowed to tie the door bars into the door sill/frame rail. I tied my door bars into the door sill for more crash protection. This changed my 8 pt cage to a 10 pt cage. I originally built the car for circle track where that wasn't an issue. (In fact, most upper class stock car rules require this.) When I got tired of replaceing body panels and struts every week I switched to SCCA & Conference racing. The extra attachment points could be an issue if pressed, but the inspectors approved the cage as built without comment.
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Hi Dick: Thanks for the complement. There are other pics of the cage on page 4 of this thread https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ghlight=jimeby
I was sure someone would nail me on the POP rivets. But not for drilling holes in the door bar... I was expecting to hear that it wasn't sturdy enough to hold the net in a bad crash. There are varied opinions on this and I still may change my mount method. Has anyone seen evidence of tubes failing from 3/16" holes as I have drilled? Russ: Thanks for your input. I know the upper classes allow more attachment points. Unfortunately, this car is kind of a Frankenstein car. When building it, I did some things that make it questionable for PRO7 which is the best class for this car. Now, I run it in the local Radial Sedan class which is kind of a catch all class for cars like mine that don't really fit any class rules. |
For a car that sees street and track duty (no racing, just HPDEs), what do you experts think of the M2 rollbar with rear diagonal support:
http://www.m2performance.com , click on the rx7, click on the safety, base bar is shown in the top 3 pics, the bottom 2 pics show the rear support diagonal added in. The bar is 1.75 x 0.12 chromoly. Thanks for your opinions. |
Looks to be a nice kit!
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Originally Posted by cagedruss
Looks to be a nice kit!
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I don't like how the shoulder harness attaches at all. But the bar itself looks fine.
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Originally Posted by Travis R
I don't like how the shoulder harness attaches at all. But the bar itself looks fine.
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It seems like the eye bolt is going to be the weak link in the system... and if it fails you are no longer restrained.
Hopefully they've done their homework and the bolt is strong enough. But there are a couple of ways they could have done it differently to make it really strong... either looping the strap around the tube entirely, or welding in a gusseted plate for the harness to bolt to. It's just one of those "if" scenarios people like to play... *if* you crash, it *might* fail, etc. It looks like the shock tower version uses the same threaded eye bolt... so not any better IMO. For what you're doing it will probably "work". No math was harmed in the formation of this opinion. ;) |
Originally Posted by Travis R
No math was harmed in the formation of this opinion. ;)
Yes, I will not be racing the car, just HPDEs. Would you advise trying to wear the stock seatbelt in addition to the 5-point harness while on the track? |
The eye bolt is probably fine if it is the cad plated forged bolt that comes with the harness kits. Bolt has a very high shear rate. Multiply your upper body mass by 10 plus 500lbs to be safe, bolt probably has a 5000lb plus on it shear. Figure out the leverage on the bolt by the strap brackets. Plus the load that it is supporting has give to it under compression which softens the force, compared to a suspension point or chassis part.
We wrap the strap around the whole bar and secure from side to side to keep it from moving. I really would not worry about it much, your brain can't handle the force it would require to shear that bolt any way, most likely, but who really knows for sure?. |
This thread's been in hybernation too long!!! Here's a 10 sec. Miata cage I just finished.
http://www.izzyscustomcages.com/imag...a/P7240013.JPG http://www.izzyscustomcages.com/imag...a/P7240012.JPG http://www.izzyscustomcages.com/imag...a/P7240016.JPG http://www.izzyscustomcages.com/imag...a/P7240017.JPG www.izzyscustomcages.com |
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