I guess I'll take some pics, I am feeling like I really skimped on mine, but at the time I thought I was building something pretty nice:(

Hey jimeby, where is the car going to run at? Are you running mini stocks somewhere or are you doing an enduro? I have many years running stock cars, started in mini stocks with a rx2 and ran 2 r100's in open comp dirt with big cars.

I really loved running rotaries on circle tracks, blew aloy of peoples minds.

That's a pretty nice looking kit cage, aside from the diagonal being on the wrong side. I too am curious since I'll probably be building a circle track FB soon (with Miata powerplant) for a series called Texas ProSedan. The rules are pretty nifty... unlimited mods within the "family", which means I need to find the biggest brakes Mazda ever made. :D

Actually the diaginal is still effective from that side. The diaginal is there to keep the rectangle box from collasping or moving from sisde to side. I have seen lots of Stock car cages built that way with good success.

Still need more info!

here ya go, I plan on augmenting the cage w/gussetts, vertical door bars, and a cross brace from rear tower to rear tower, and up to the main hoop. I screwed up the dash bar which comes standard, and will add that as well. Suggestions welcome. This is a basic Kirk cage, 1.5"x.120 DOM. Here are some links, I'm having a hard day ;)
http://www.teamfc3s.org/forum/member...=t&img_id=4607
http://www.teamfc3s.org/forum/member...=t&img_id=4605
http://www.teamfc3s.org/forum/member...=t&img_id=4606
http://www.teamfc3s.org/forum/member...=t&img_id=4608
http://www.teamfc3s.org/forum/member...=t&img_id=8054
http://www.teamfc3s.org/forum/member...=t&img_id=6999
http://www.teamfc3s.org/forum/member...=t&img_id=8051
http://www.teamfc3s.org/forum/member...=t&img_id=8053

Sorry for the click fest, I had to use some old stuff that was too large. Carl

O'k I screwed up again, now they are too small. I'll fix them later. ARGHHHH!

I built the cage per CSC's plan as far as the diaginal is concerned. I don't know why it would make a difference one way or the other since it's just triangulating the main hoop... but I'm just an amature at building these things. I think the worst thing I did was put the dash bar under the steering column. Many rules specify that the dash bar be above the steering column. We're planning to run some "hornet" classes in the area. These classes require the stock dash be in place. To put the dash bar above, I would have had to move the A-piller legs way back. So, I chose the lesser of the two evils. It turns out the dash bar is higher than the lower portion of the dash anyhow.

As far as where we are racing.... the easy answer is: everywhere we can! We plan to race enduro's and hornet classes at Monroe primarily. Hornets are pure stock 4 cylinder cars. Remove the interior, knock the glass out and put in some crash support bars. I went pretty overboard with the cage and all, but ya gotta have a hobby! I just heard that Skagit Speedway is starting a hornet class on their clay oval. I haven't seen the rules yet, but if possible, we'll head up there for a little dirty fun.
Our first planned race is the March 12 300 lap enduro at Monroe.

Thanks Jimeby for the pm. I am glad to hear not all circle tracks have banned the Rotary, ever though you have to run completely stock. Some of my best racing I did was in a R100 with a P Port 12A with a Weber IDA. Car weighed 1800lbs, great HP to weight ratio.

All the tracks I raced at in the late 80's and early 90's banned the ported rotaries after they penalized us with 1.5 lbs per CC.

Good luck with your Enduro in March. I used to love doing those here at the old Portland Speedway and South Sound Speedway in Tenino, Wa.

i guess drag racers get no love in here.thats cool . i see how it is ..
ill just keep my other 2 solo and GT vw cage pics to myself. :p:
heres my newest solo car but like the soup nazzi no cages for you!!

heres one more this my rabbit drag car ...if you ask nice and someone will tell me why all these cages go to the strut towers ill post all my other cars cage pics :rlaugh:
just kidding

I started the thread to see all the Cages, even drag cages. Show me!

Russ, comments on my cage? I shared, your turn...

Carl, there are a couple of minor things I would have done differently, and they all revolve around the tubes coming together at a common node.
I'm glad to see an X in the rear, but I would have cut off the rear speaker support and attached the tube right to the top of the spring perch. Then when that tube hits the main hoop, it's better to have it supported by another tube on the other side. Right now your X bars and your over-door bars hit the main hoop at different locations.
The same is true for your door intrusion bars where they hit they attach, the next tube is ~6" away.
I really like where the main hoop attaches at the bottom, right on the meaty section of the frame. Kudos :)
All IMHO, of course.

Wabbit... running the rear hoop braces down to the strut towers and triangulating the rear bars is a big advantage in road racing. The loads of the suspension are transferred through the cage. Basically, the cage acts as a big strut bar.

The strut towers are built to withstand plenty of force.... I would say that on some cars, they're a little stronger than the actual frame rails.

I like to tie into both whenever possible.

Now, lets see those drag cages!!!

Agreed, as I said I am adding a strut brace triangulated with the main hoop. I knew of the problem with the "X", and the down bars, but I did not want to cut off the roof, or cut the floor. I will be gussetting the cage to the car, sce the car will never run IT, this should help with the shortcomings you identified. I will also have a dash bar. I left the speaker enclosures to give me a solid mounting place for the bulkhead that will seperate my fuel system from the rest of the car. Thanks for your input, Carl

I like, hard to really see everything since pictures are so small. Like the main hoop, I prefer to run to bars back to the rear frame section and then add the x in the middle of that.

I also like to attached the rear support tubes to the same area of the main hoop where the halo mounts to. Like to keep everything flowing if you will, kind of a compression thing. Drag race guys do not believe in that theory and that is ok with me. We all have our own ideas, plus they are working around big tubs in back!

I do not see any problem with running the rears bars to where you have placed them. They are attached using a plate welded to the top of the uni-body frame. Also provides protection for the rear suspension and fuel tank.

Most people really flame me on the forums because I do different stuff also. They believe the rear bars must be attached to the rear shocks towers. Shock towers are really not that strong but are multi angled which does help for strength. I try to tie the rear supports to the frame adjacent to the towers to catch both. You can use the rear part of the triangulation of the cage to support the shock towers from flexing. Most of the load is on the rear crossmember mounts anyway and the shocks aren't holding much weight unless you are using coilovers.

Think of a cage as a shock absorber, hit one part of the cage and try to get the shock loads to travel throughout the cage to the other side or away from the driver and leave enough room for the crush factor.

Most cages are really over engineered which is what we are striving for and also to keep the frame ridgid so the suspension works to its full potential.

Cage looks tight and well thought out, hopefully you will never have to test it!



What class are you running this in?

jimeby, ask your cage kit fabricator which installation direction of the main hoop diagonal offers MORE PROTECTION to the driver. As you have it mounted per their instructions high end of diagonal to the passengers side or high end of the diagonal to the drivers side. Have ya ever viewed a nascar car that came down on the passengers side main hoop upper corner where there is no diagonal as compared to when the same type car comes down on the drivers side main hoop uper corner where the main hoop diagonal is?

Driver safety first........
David Dewhurst

Hi David and All:
Since this issue was brought to my attention by Chris, I've been looking into the issue. I sent email to CSC but haven't heard back yet. I know my (now gone) super late model stock car, a pro build Port City chassis, had the cross bar as mine is installed. I also see that Lefthander late model chassis are built both ways depending on the chassis model. The offset chassis is like mine and the perimeter chassis is the opposite. Having said that, I see that Skagit Speedway, a local dirt track that we were hoping to race at (until they outlawed rotaries) requires the cross bar to be high on the left.
I feel the weakest link in the main hoop is the bend that is half way up the legs of the hoop. If the cage is going to crush, that's where I feel it'll bend. If the cross tube is at the top left, it will not hold the top of the hoop up... I feel it will simply rotate down with the top corner of the cage as the center of the leg bends out and the top corner comes down. On my car, the left leg of the hoop has a bit more help by the seat belt bar... but I don't know if it's significant. I'll be phoning CSC if I don't hear back from them soon to get their opinion.
I appreciate hearing your opinions... you're making me think about my decisions and that's what makes racing fun for me... especially since I don't get to drive much.
Cheers,
Jim

Russ, the car is NASA Super Unlimited/ SCCA SPO if I feel like being beat up ;)

Did you take the cage to the front of the car and if so, post some pics please.

No, not yet, when I did the cage, I thought I would be able to get it into ITE(thus the six point). Eventually I will do that, and triangulate the front towers, maybe front half the car. Aero is my next big project though, I plan on creating a special flat bottom with diffussers front, and rear, my own design, let's call it a "Drop Bottom" Carl

Our Regions ITE rule says must meet or exceed the SCCA 8 pt rule, that opens the door to allow other tub based race cars a place to race like world challange cars. Double check yours, maybe it says the same.

Yo Dudes:
The cage builder (CSC) agrees that the diagonal bar should be high above the driver and low at the passenger side and mine is in backwards. Dang. But, I did build it according to the plan that I received with the kit.
He made a couple suggestions. His preference was to add a bar from the passenger side rear spring pocket up to the drivers side main hoop corner. His second choice would be to "X" the main hoop. His last choice would be to cut the diagonal out and replace it with one the other way.
I'm still in denial so it'll take a while for me to decide what to do about it... I have the car almost ready to race and just don't want to go back into it to make cage mods. Plus, I've seen plenty of much faster cars built each way. Once I get over my denial, I'll decide what to do.
Cheers,
Jim

Make an X, easier!

Yeah, nothing wrong with just X-ing that diagonal, much easier than cutting, and it's the safest deal all around.

Make an "X" & you will not need to tell your driver after the car flips & rolls why the drivers side caved in & the passergers side did not cave in.

Have Fun ;)
David

I've been building cages for about 15 years and I build them with the drivers hoop x-brace low on the drivers side. SCCA GCR gave us the option to have the diagonal in the hoop either way or between the rear supports either way. I do one of each, the rear support brace attaching behind/above the drivers head. Then a straight horizontal bar in the hoop for belts all the way across. I worry more about a T-bone shot for the driver than a rollover. Every sedan I've seen takes a harder shot to the top of the windshield when they go shiney side down.

I'll post pix when I figure out how to do it

John

Here are some pics of a Honda I did 2 seasons ago. We started off with just the 2 bars like he wanted. Finally his wife got him to agree to an upgrade for side protection and roll over. Now he is good for Roll over and side.

http://www.teamfc3s.org/forum/member...tos&car_id=562 Larger pics of the cage, and some various other pics of my cars. Double click to make them larger. Carl

Hey Carl,

Really like your body kit, fenders are about the right size. Nice paint choice also!

16x12s w/24.5-13-16 rear, 16x11s w/24.5-11.5-16 front. Thanks, it's been a long road...

The picture of your kid reminds me of the time we were bored at one of the races and rolled everybody around in Formula Atlantic tires. Except none of us fit in less than 3 tires. :D

I miss pro racing...

That is one of my favorites, my tire supplier sent me a 27-14-16 for him. That is not it though, those are on the car now.

Here is a Honda I just finished this morning. Sorry for thr glare, 10 day in a row over 65 and sunny.

i'm selling a wrinlke black powdercoated kirk racing 4pt if anyone is interested, PM me

wall thickness
 

Hey All:
We had a big weekend. Raced the FB, got crashed out big time, then went off to an IRDC race school at Pacific Raceways. We liked that better.
Now my question: I'm looking all over the ICSCC regulations and can't find the specs for a sedan cage. I used 1 1/2" .095 tubing in mine. Some of the instructors thought it was too thin for conference racing. I'm surprised since .095 is standard fare for all circle track stuff. Whats the SCCA or ICSCC rule on that?
Many thanks,
Jim

Rules follow SCCA GCR. 1 1/2"x.120" DOM is what you need. SCCA GCR

Thanks for the info... dang. Maybe that's one reason I stuck with circle track. Just switching to DOM material is going to double the cost of a cage.
Cheers.

I know what you mean, I have raced many types of Stock Cars in the past and the expense can be less. I only use DOM for the Stock Cars now, I have seen to many wall failures in ERW material.

I put a rear support tube on a main hoop in a Camaro a few years back, had it all welded up nice and pretty and found a 6" strip where the computer operated welder forgot to weld up.

Most top brand late model frames are DOM or seamless tubing now do to safety reason. Plus it is a bit easier to repair frames and rails due to the consistant wall thickness.

Adding an extra $150-200 for safety is a cheap investment in the long run for me for liability. It also lets me sleep better at night.

Erw Tubing
 

Hate to be a know it all, but any enginner knows ERW and DOM start out the same as ERW tubing. They are both rolled from flat plate, then they have their seam welded together. They are made from the same material. The ONLY difference, is DOM gets a finishing pass down the inside to smooth out the material from the inside. A seam can split on either one, as their both welded. There are many good web sites on the internet telling all about the mfg process. Seamless tubing or bar stock is the ONLY way to rid your self of the welded seam.

http://www.copperweld.com/ltvdominsert.html

Sure, most DOM starts as ERW, but it's not plain ERW when it's finished. It's kind of like getting pasteurized milk out of a dairy rather than drinking from the bottom of a cow. Yes, it starts out the same, but the finished product is much different. I'll take the safety of DOM along with the safety of pasteurization, thank you very much.

ERW or DOM
 

Just do as I said. Look on the internet for all you ever need to know. And yes, DOM is not seamless. Just look at their prices. Do a search on the improved touring .com forum for this thread. DICK.

Holy cow guys. Are you jumping off of clifs with those cars or something? Those are some serious cages.

just in case :)

I am still enjoying all of this. Show us more pictures!

DOM or ERW
 

Tell me why or how DOM is better/safer than ERW. Please do this in terms an engineer can understand. This is not a seat-of-the pants answerable question. SHOW ME THE MEAT!!!!



QUOTE=RoadRaceJosh]http://www.copperweld.com/ltvdominsert.html

Sure, most DOM starts as ERW, but it's not plain ERW when it's finished. It's kind of like getting pasteurized milk out of a dairy rather than drinking from the bottom of a cow. Yes, it starts out the same, but the finished product is much different. I'll take the safety of DOM along with the safety of pasteurization, thank you very much.[/QUOTE]

I'll have more time to dig up stuff later but this pretty much sums it up:

"Metallurgically, drawing improves the tube's concentricity, tensile strength, and hardness. This process creates approximately 30% greater strength and stiffness in DOM-tube over its ERW-tube counterpart."

DOM or ERW
 

SCOTT!!! I should have known you would answer sooner or later. Don't you ever work at the station. I know what you said is true. I would just like to know what kind of testing SCCA did to outlaw ERW. At this rate, SCCA will outlaw DOM next, then seamless, and mandate that only solid bar stock is legal. Have you ever seen an ERW cage fail because of the materal? In 52 years of racing I have not. SHOW ME THE MEAT. Wheres the proof? DICK.

Are you sure a 6pt is good for 8.50's? I was under the impression that you need at least an 8pt just for 9s (nhra)?

Also, where did you get your cage done and what was the cost?

The cage looks great!

Anthony

There have been many cases involving tube failure from using ERW. SCCA does not publish any info on these failures. Makes them look bad. Local stock car tracks have them also, but most Stock cars have ample tubing to protect the driver so it isn't a huge deal.

Inspect the ends carefully of a piece of ERW and dom tubing that are the same size and thickness. You will see the ERW has major short comings in the wall dimension. One side thick, the other side thin. The DOM is even all the way around. That alone should tell you the the DOM will offer more protection. Now, I am not saying that there are not mills out there that produce high quality ERW, but they are hard to find sometimes. I have seen some that looks just like DOM but the weld is still visible, but there are some that look like crap.


If you have access to a press with a hydraulic pressure gauge, try crushing the tube from its side. You will see the DOM will require more pressure to crush the tube that the ERW.

For testing the tube from SCCA point of view, you could take a chance on using ERW, paint the cage to cover the welds. Drill a hole for measuring the inside and outside dimensions, and may even pass the test. But if the tech know what he is doing and comes up with an off measurement, he could make the whole cage illegal. I do not think that would happen, but as a cage fabricator, I am not willing to take that chance. There is to much to lose.

And after a major wreck or a fatality, SCCA seizes the car and they inspect everything with a fine tooth comb. I would not want to explain why I used inferior materials to SCCA. That would make all the cages I have done suspect.

Also major testing has been done by the bigger race divisions and Insurance companies are mandating the change for better rates. That is also why we have to use SFI products with dates, it keeps the Attorneys happy.

I do think you will have to worry about using solid round stock for roll cages. Racing would be outlawed for other things first, like noise and environment pollution, and anything else the enviro NAZI's can come up with.