Petitt FD in Speed GT, where was it at Sears Point?
 

I was watching the Speed GT Championship on Speed and I didn't see the Petitt car in the field. Are they still racing it in GT. Do you think that the governing board for SCCA is holding the FD back by keeping the boost too low to compete with the other cars? It would look pretty bad for Chevy, Audi, and BMW to have a ten year old Japanese car beating them. I would love to see someone get a really good driver, well prepared FD, and a lot of money, and go out there and kick the C5 and BMW's but. By the way I raced through some office park streets with a Ferrari today and he had nothin on me!!!

I wouldn't be surprised at some SCCA bias towards the FD; read the offical responses from the SCCA board in the thread "Let's move FD to A Stock"

What model Ferrari did you race?

How many teams run FDs vs C5s, 911s or Audis/BMWs.. THis is their first year running the FD full time (as far as I know), and they probably need some development time on the car. They may not be as well funded as the Audi or BMW efforts are (I'd be very surprised if they were).

PaulC

I think it was a 360 Modena. He took off around some corners and I went with him.

Hmmm... lets see:

I looked at the rule PDF available online for Speed GT, and if memory serves:

The new Audi RS6, which weighs 4000 lbs in street trim is allowed to race at 3200 or a little under... and M3s are allowed to weigh 2700 , but the FD is supposed to race at 2600, a weight many full street versions weigh.

Gee, i wonder who puts more money in GT? Audi w/ their 3-car effort, BMW, or Pettit racing who ran on used race tires last year?

Series legend PD Cunningham was allowed to run a supercharger on his NSX, which doesn't have one in production trm, but as far as i can tell, but series nobody Cam Worth (or Brad Flowers) and the FD has to run stock hitachi twins @ 15 psi.... the Audi RS6 can run 2.2 bar of boost!!!

hmmm...

That is the kind of crap that drives me crazy!!! I understand they need rules to make the racing competitive, but to seriously inhibit one car just because they aren't a huge sponsor of the series is ridiculous. Racing should be a fair sport. Void of prejudices. That is why I don't like gymnastics, ice skating, diving, or any other competition that is based on a subjective opinion of a judge. Sports like Track and Field are solely based on the performance of the participant, if you run faster than everybody else you win, Period!! I understand that this is difficult with all the different cars, weights, and horse power. But you think they would at least try to be fair. Sorry for the rant.

Welcome to equivalency formula racing... you don't think the folks that win in any production-based series, or NASCAR for that matter don't have the best lobbyists?

The only way to be fair is to either be unlimited (F1), or totally spec (formula Mazda).

I'll bet the track cars of folks like Brad Barber or John Eppley are as fast as Pettits race car... all Cam would need is a single turbo... and a travel budget

I can't believe they let Peter Cunningham put a supercharger on his NSX, but make the FD stay with the stock twins. That is crap. I understand what you are saying. It is just frustrating.

No no no...
 

On behalf of the SCCA Speed World Channel Series, both Touring and GT I would like to state there is NO bias involved. The team who has leased the car from Petit to run this season is located in Toronto and from what I understand chose to not make the longest haul of the season let alone they've cracked the car up and had teething problems.

The AUDI RS6's campained by Champion will never weigh less then 3500 with driver and the E46 M3's is in the same neighbourhood so you're knocking on the wrong door there.

We are confident that through almost daily research we maintain the greatest level of equivalency amongst such large and diverse fields of competitors. The rewards weight system works well. Where it does not we rewrite the books as we go. Hence the E46 M3's having 150 lbs. of base weight added for the remainder of the season effective immediately.

You don't think were fast? :D Come out and play...
Our cars on average are now running within 97 percent of the ALMS GT/S class cars. 170+ mph

Thank you and we hope you continue to watch and enjoy our series! Oh yeah, just got back from Mid-Ohio where we ran 40 touring cars. Some great battles, a bit of carnage, watch for it in a week or two on SPEED.

That's incorrect. F1 is extremely regulated ... the absolute highest form of spec racing. Almost all open-wheel series follow this format. And mostly because that's the only way to keep people honest. Like any other sport, when you get to that level of competition, everybody cheats .... so it's in the sport's best interest to keep as much as possible heavily regulated. F1/CART/IRL teardown make NASCAR look like an east Texas state inspection.

Now, the World Challenge series is definitely a sponsor-lenient program. BMW, Audi, GM, and even Ford have been pushing the SCCA for their platforms. As mentioned the weight and boost restrictions are unduly set against RX-7's. Look up the restrictions for a Supra and you'll find the same thing. In the GT class, Mazda obviously hasn't lifted a finger. Now go to Touring class, and the whole field is littered with Proteges. It's all about factory backing. Mazda hasn't officially sponsored an RX-7 in many years .... and don't expect that it will anytime soon. IOW, if Mazda really wanted a competitive RX-7 in GT class, it would've made a case for one ... but obviously they don't care to right now. Maybe in 2007 (hint, hint) ...

Sponsor lenient huhn? Okay, name our sponsors...

What's that? Not one manufacturer? Correct! because we are a racing series!

Yes we hear from manufacturers but more often then not it's the competitors that bring these ideas forth. Irish Mike's runs two Impreza 2.5 RS's in Touring. They wanted to bring a WRX to GT and Subaru flatly declined helping them to any degree with such a program so they dropped the idea. I'd say 95% of the cars homologated for our series were concepts presented to us by privateers with no factory backing or incentives.

Are we suppose to make tremendous changes to our rules to allow models that aren't even being produced any longer to battle towards the front? No. The lifespan of homologation in our series is ten years I believe. You want a competitive car get something different perhaps. World Challenge wants both our Touring and GT fields to reflect current or recent models that will create exciting racing.

Think we're not careful? How about coming in to the paddock with flatbeds and towing away three or four cars for dyno testing? We seal engines, observe teardowns at the track and confiscate cams, valves, whatever we wish. Fuel sampling is done on a regular basis also.

World Challenge has been around a long time when you look at the tumultuous world of race series' in the last ten years. We often put on the best show of the weekend.

In my own opinion hell sure give the Petit car allowance for a big single turbo or more boost allowance. You think you don't see it much now?? then after those changes you'd see it less.

Re: No no no...
 

Hey i was just reading the rulebook... and it said 3200 for the RS6, 2700 for the M3. thats all i was stating. If it runs heavier, great. So what does the RX7 run if the rulebook isn't accurate? I wouldn't expect a low-buck effort with a non-pro driver to win races in that series, but give me a break... equivalency formulas have always favored the big names (remember the cheater V8 M3s from ALMS?)... SGT is no different. That said, i love the series... i'm a big fan and have seen the races live... production based racing is great fun!

Per redrotor1: F1 isn't spec racing. They regulate alot more than they used to, but particularly in the engine dept. basically all it stipulates is 3.0 liters, and 10 cylanders. CART and IRL are probably more like what you are refering to...

SGT should at least allow the RX7 to do more with the turbos...

I am not sure allowing more boost or a single turbo is a huge allowance. A lot less in my opinion than letting someone add a supercharger to a car that is naturally aspirated. I also don't think everyone should have to go out and buy a BMW or Corvette just because they are more favorable to the racing series. The RX7 could be a competitive car if World Challenge would let it. I also understand the World Challenge wants to have newer cars winning, that is what sells those cars for the manufacturers. Would Audi keep three cars in the series if a 10 year old Mazda RX7 was allowed to compete with them? How would that make Audi look. And then if Audi or BMW pulled out of the series that would be a huge blow to the racing series. Really that is what it is about. Audi and BMW may not be title sponsors of the series, but having them in the series elevates the status of World Challenge. If they leave that would be bad so you need to do what you have to do to keep them in the series and not really care about Mazda because they aren't as important and don't have factory backing.

Acura, AirGas, Amkus, Audi, BMW, B&M, Chevrolet, Honda, Intercomp, Lexus, Mazda, Mr. Moto, Nissan, Porsche, Saleen, Sha Sha, StopTech, Subaru, Toyo, and TRD. And that's just the stuff that's listed on the website. Granted, most of the sponsorship revolves around contingency points .... but that's EVERY form of motorsports. Contingency is what makes racing ... racing!

There's a manufacturer championship because ... what, WC philanthropically donates money to whatever manufacturer ends the season with the most points??? And where would all this money come from? Just ticket sales, huh? FIA doesn't require a $48 million deposit from new F1 teams for nothing. And while being a lot smaller in scale, are you seriously trying to convince me that WC conducts its business any differently? If you buy that, then I've got an island in the South Pacific to sell you .... ;)

:crackup:

Yep, I know absolutely nothing. I've only been an official for the series for five years and been in professional motorsports for eleven. Contingencies are just that contingencies, nothing revolves around them.

As a series official, what say do you have in classing/rule changes? I ask because I have no idea how they are made. I understand that teams make the most noise, but manufacturers have zero influence? As I previously stated, factory backing is everything ... but WC doesn't get anything in return? Seems very odd for a Pro Racing series.

I don't think you know nothing... quite the contrary, so i'd love to hear what the actual regulations for these cars are since they are apparently much different than the published regs (shame too, since my world challenge car built to the posted regs was gonna be ready for the season finale :-) )

I also understand that many a sanction body has had trouble properly "equivalent" -ing a rotary car. But i think you and others hit it on the head: SGT wants its field to reflect current makes because thats what sells cars and ultimately brings manufacturers (and money) to the sport. Nobody's gonna make a dime from a 10 year old car not sold in this country racing Audi's latest $80k offering.

I don't think its a matter of SGT needing to do anything to HELP said 10-year old car run w/ newer machinery... more like letting a privateer get away with what it lets bigger name folks do, like Cunningham's supercharged NSX (also a 10+ year old design, though they still sell it here for a loss)...

Please understand, that i love the series, and am not suggesting its fixed or anything, just that they could cut the RX a little more of a break, like they've done others, as its obviously down on power.

The original question was wether the RX7 was on a level playing field with some of the other cars, and by the rules i've read, it doesn't look like it is.

Very well said ptrhahn. You a politician or something? I agree. I just want to see the RX7 on a level playing field with the rest of the cars.

because mazda's ZOOM ZOOM comercials don't incorporate the FD. That is why the petit FD isn't finishing first.

Yaw power is working on a supercharged rx8 platform for the SpeedGT series.

I can see why Speed wants newer cars. Motorsports is about current technology. Manufacturers are about pushing current technology. Do not get me wrong - I have been around rotary powered cars for 20 years now. The third gen is a beautiful car. PRO sanctioning bodies do not survive by spinning there wheels on old technology.

I worked with the Speed series 10 or so years ago and got a vehicle homologated - My funding fell through :( They were very open and worked with me heavily.

-billy

If WC wants newer cars, how do you explain the Porshe 928's that are currently running? According to the Speed commentators the SCCA had to adjust the rules somewhat to allow these cars to enter because of a very loyal, and vocal, following that wanted to see them raced. We FD owners are the same. I, too, enjoy the series, but I have to say I thought it more enjoyable when there were RX 7s, Toyota Supras, Corvettes, Porshes, NSXs and the like instead of sedans versus sport cars, as the series is now. I think all we FD owners and fans would ask is the same type of allowances granted Cunningham's NSX - needed to make it competitive - and the 928s to make it a more diverse field. It would attract all the Mazda fans already at the track to watch the Proteges (which have been granted huge tech concessions to become competitive against the BMWs.)

I will comment on all your statements and answer your questions best I can when I am settled back in here at work. Upon getting back from Mid Ohio I arrived to a STACK of work. *sigh*

The 928 is allowed to run the select few events they choose to enter because it is competitive and the project was pushed in to our lap by the Porsche Car Club; there was alot of interest. 7's owners just need to speak up but that alone won't provide for entry money nor the maintenance bill. The 7 is in much the same bag as the 928, there was enough interest to let it run, we needed to beef up the size of the field but they weren't about to make great changes beyond that to the regulations concerning the car itself.

I think all of you have a point.
 

I love the WC series when it has a whole mix of cars. That's what makes it wonderful. Lately I watch the begining of the race and that's about it. It reminds me of formula one last few years. Ferrari, Mclaren, Ferrari, Mclaren. Instead it's Audi,BMW, Corvette. The concept that intrigue me was the fact that you saw all these cars on the road and you could associate with them. Right know the big thing for these young kids is making their cars look like road racers. They are heavy into drag racing. I'd wish that road racing was less expensive and more accessible to the public like in Europe, but is not. Maybe will get there. I definitetly think that the WC should try an accomadate those cars that still have that high repoir with the tuners of today. Having Supras, RX-7's, 300z's, in this challenge would highten the WC image and bring some of the luster back to road racing. If you want to check out a really cool series check out the JGTC. http://www.jgtc.net/. They don't discriminate. The have the best cars on the planet racing on the best road courses running as many cars as nascar. It's a great race to watch. Unfortunately you can't get in the states. Speed Vision is supposed to have it, but i've never seen it.

Speed did run JGTC for very brief periods last year. It's usually summary coverage though and they try and cram 3 or 4 events into a hour. :(

I agree that WC is doing something that we all love to see. Real cars being prepped and raced to their full potential. But to racerjason's point, there's not enough interest($$) in RX-7's to bring out a competitive team.;) And if it's anything like SoloII, most potential FD racers are all show and no go.

I understand what you are saying, but it goes directly against your statement that politics don't play a part in the rules making.. its exactly as i said:

1. A big name like Cunningham can supercharfe a car that never came that way

2. Audi can run a car thats 500 lbs lighter w/ fuel and driver than the stock car is empty.

3. Rich PCA members can "lobby" to get their 10+ year old model in w/ some "rewritten" read: bent rules, but:

A no-name Mazda tuner and lower-income fans won't have any luck getting the rules set up to let a car that could probably smoke most of the latest offerings to even be competitive.

Remember when they used to say IMSA meant "International Money Sports Association"?? I can't see where this is any different.....

Re: I think all of you have a point.
 

I do agree, the JGTC is neat, with a some interesting pieces of hardware. That being said, I have a couple of problems with the series.
It's obviously Japanese centric. While I don't have a problem with this (what ever blows your hair back, I guess), the ruleset is obviously giving some advantage to certain cars. McLaren F1's and Porsche GT2's can't keep up with the NSX's, Skylines and Supras? That aint natural.
Additionally, how expensive must those cars be? Sequential gear boxes, carbon fibre everywhere etc.

They are fun to watch though.

It does seem like the FD is sort of a "forgotten" car with respect to SCCA, not so much biased-against, but more like the Supras and 300ZXs are now, just sort of omitted from the thought process that classifies the cars. I mean, look at where it is allowed to run at a club level: ITE and GT1/2.

Okay, well ITE limits you to regional (club-level) competition - the highest peak of this arena is events like the 12 hours at the point. And the "open-ness" of this class makes it a veritable free-for-all - you never know, from one event to the next, what you'll be up against, and sometimes you get screwed by the occasional very-well-prepared/developed car (in one case I can remember, a Ferrari of Washington 348GT up against a first-gen RX7?). From a race fan's perspective, this doesn't even really register as a blip on the radar, so to speak, since ITE is not a regional feeder for any particular national class in SCCA. It's more like a place to develop yourself as a driver, in preparation to run in an endurance series like ALMS or GrandAm (hmmm, there's IMSA again...). Or, it's a place to have a heck of a lot of fun as an amateur driver.

Ahhh, GT1. So the FD is categorized into the same class as TransAm cars? (albeit "obsolete" TransAm cars) To me, that seems like a particularly large oversight. The two pro series that are under the guise of the SCCA (last time I checked) are Speed World Challenge and TransAm. Well, it seems obvious that anyone that would put the FD into TransAm is on serious mind-altering drugs. And under SWC, you have Touring and GT. Okay, the FD obviously doesn't fit into Touring by any stretch of the imagination. But GT seems to be the focal point of this thread, and the only logical place to put an FD in an SCCA pro series. So, as I see it, there is a certain lack of symmetry here between the club and pro classes in SCCA. Under the assumption that the GT series is where an FD would end up in SCCA pro racing, why is it classified at a club level with cars from the much faster TransAm series?

GT2? Wait, what happened to GT1.5? I'm not entirely certain what the criteria are for whether you are in GT1 or GT2 when driving an FD, but assuming you could choose which you run in, this would seem like the more intuitive choice. Now you are actually in the same category as the afforementioned Ferrari 348GT (to quote the SCCA car classifications DB, "w/ 308 Specs (2926cc)"), the venerable Chevy Z24 Cavalier, the 74-93 Mustang 2.8, and the Infiniti G20. Wow, what a closely-matched category! I can't tell you how many times I've wished to see that kind of a match-up on the track! :jerkit:

I've thought this over again and again, and it seems like one would try to create classes that sort of parallel eachother, between the club and pro levels. And I would love to get a chance to meet the person who decided that a Buick Regal is classified in GT1! Brilliant!

i just had to say that I agree on the Supercharged NSX thing...I will never understand why they did that one. I do like that team the best at the time although Randy Pobst was getting close to my heart last year in the Porsche (damn Audis :D). I wish the FD could run with the single turbo (I'd rather have twins, but still...why can you have a supercharged NSX but no single turbo RX-7), I just really wanna see them have a succesful campaign.

In response to the GT rules for SCCA club and national level, the FD is GT1 or GT2. GT1 FDs can run turbos, 20Bs, lots of engine choices. The GT2 FDs run I believe 12A PP or 13B BP, IIRC. Also keep in mind that most top level GT cars in SCCA are silohuette cars. Tube frame, custom built with fiberglass skins to resemble whatever car. As in you talking about the Buick Regal in GT1, remember that the same chassis that a Corvette GT1 would run could have some new molds made and put on a Buick Regal body, now you have same car, but hoop ride body. LOL There was a point in here. And how we went from FDs in SWC to Buick Regals in GT1 is a mystery. :)

this is a great thread!!! i hope our local SCCA official keeps responding though he seems to be on the defensive.

i have a couple of random thoughts.

support for FD racing in this country is essentially zero. the problem probably began because of SCCA regs essentially ostracizing the FD, but in the end, the FD community never lobbied hard enough to change things and subsequently here we are. i made the typical amateur racer mistake and bought a car i liked, prepared it into a very fast and reliable car, only to find it doesn't fit into any class. i don't consider GT1-2 to be a class where a typical privateer is building a car in his garage. the cars are no longer the original car at all (except the silhouette). IT rules are way too restrictive to FD's and don't allow enough modification to make the car fast AND reliable. super production is possible as is NASA super unlimited, but those are so wide open that the chance of being competitve from week to week is completey unknown. soooooo instead, i have a very fast and reliable open track car that can't really be raced despite the fact that it has turned lap times equivalent to gt2 cars at our local california tracks. it's completely my fault for not doing my research ahead of time, but still it's quite frustrating. when i go to open track events i'm usually the only FD there. i proceed to run in the the top 3-5% of laptimes, but i can't sell my car for anywhere even remotely near it's value. people like to bash on the porsche community, but i can tell you, if i was selling a 10 year old 944 that is as well prepped as my FD, they'd be busting down my door.

i guess my point, what is my point???oh yeah.....the FD community is not race oriented and has no real pull in the road racing world. its not surprising that we don't have cars in the major pro racing series.....10 guys in the whole country semi interested in FD racing doesn't equal Porsch club of america's SCCA lobby power.

i'm off to CSR/DSR racing in the near future....i'm going to be leaving the RX7 world with mixed feelings. i'll miss my FD terribly, but at least i'll have fast and reliable car i can race.

love this thread....keep it going!!!!

regards
fabian

Fabian, you are right(but does it take away from your enjoyment of the sport?), I am building a TII for Super Unlimited, but as you point out, from week to week who knows who I will run against.
However, for me, that is not a problem, Super Unlimited will allow me to build whatever I want(the car I love with NO limits), and go wheel to wheel racing for relatively little money. l will have less than 20G in my car trailer and all.
Since I do not care so much about published results, and I will be running with cars that are often faster than me, this is for me, a perfect, and inexpensive way to go wheel to wheel. My goal will be to run times on a par with the top ITE cars, without the SCCA BS. For me this is enough, for others it is not. I am grateful that there is a series for me to run my ~500rwhp Widebody TII, without worrying about rules that limit my reliability mods, or tell me I cannot run a 335-30-17 because it will give me an unfair advantage over a 145,000.00 Porsche.
I guess it comes down to what you want out of racing, if you want trophies, and published bragging rights it is a very frustrating place for 7s, but if you want inexpensive, and competitive wheel to wheel racing I fell it is out there. For me there is always a faster car to chase, always a friend to make, and always fun to be had. For me fun is what it is about, and there's plenty of that. As Brad would say"peace, love, and track(I'll add fun to that. Later, Carl

carl, you make some great points. but i would argue a little with the "competitiveness" of SU or SP. the couple of these races i've seen were basically one or two high dollar, high horsepower cars (race prepped viper, race prepped vette, some version of P 911) fighting for the the lead, and then a very scattered field spread out for miles behind. there was very little competition at all. the speed differential of the cars was just too great. i'm sure there were some small battles amoungst the also rans, but it just didn't seem like enough for me.

for me personally, i've gotten endless amounts of joy and comrederie at open track events. some competiveness always gets satisfied running in the advanced groups and time trials......however, there's nothing that compares with competing wheel to wheel with cars which are at least withing 20% of performance potential. i think series like spec miata and similar, push this too far because they eliminate most of the "race craft" aspect. i'm just looking for a happy medium, and just don't think it exists for the FD.

i'm sorry i never got to meet you or silkworm or really any of the rx7 communityat the track in the last year. i've attendend at least 15 open track events in the last year and can count the number of rx7 owners that i've met on one hand. i'm starting my competive career in the next month so i'm sure i'll meet some more since i realize there's a million 1st and 2nd gen drivers out there in IT and Prod classes.....unfortunately the FD JUST DOESN'T FIT:(

good luck with that beast, looking forward to seeing you out there some time.

fabian

ps....u really use 335 tires on that thing :p:

335s on 17x12 CCWs with 275s, or 315s on 17x10s up front is the plan, the flares are being moulded to the car as we speak. Usually SU runs with some other fast classes, and I think I'll find some guys to run with. If not, I will petition for ITE, although I do not care for the politics of SCCA(no flames please). We shall see. If you have not sold your car, will you attend SS6? As my buddies kid me, I just love the "look at me" street cars, which also "GO". Dual use is the way for me. I am also building an ~800rwhp Supra (wife is a very patient). Anyway good luck, and hope to see you at the track.

if you are really using these beasts on the street as well, was wondering about what kind of "smog solutions" you have??

fabian

Who me? On the street;)

I will respond, still recovering from Mosport Le Mans weekend :D

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...hreadid=215478

okay...

Fabian hit the nail on the head. The interest and support for FD's participating in motorsports has always been limited. Perhaps if Cam had chosen to run more then three or four events each of the last two seasons then his efforts might have been taken more seriously. Gump Motorsports who is campaigning the car currently is a low buck operation, they come out to play, not to win. Even if that car went big single it would just make it more tempermental. Where does that car end up typically? Bottom feeding unfortunately. I think at Sebring they lasted 7 laps, Mosport maybe double that. I own a TII racecar and I know that every new day holds a new dilemna whether it comes from regular maintenance or hair-pulling new snafu's. Heck, as far as interest and money... There was immaculately prepared FD builf for our series, rumor was they spent a quarter of a million on it + +. Did it ever materialize in to a full race program or anything? No, money was the factor. And backing from Mazda or anyone else wouldn't ahve made a terrific difference. The interest by all parties except for the fabricators of the car just wasn't there unfortunately. The lobbying by the 928 S4 team and its supporters made a difference. When I post a msg. in the CDN forum asking people to come out and support our regional rotary brotherhood I get three or four people. Oh well...

As for the Vortech Supercharged NSX. It was competitive wasn't it? Did it win all the time against Galati in the S4 (that cost over a million dollars to develop and build both cars)? No. the fields were matched fairly well then, FD aside. Did the NSX have a crowd around it in the paddock? Always. The FD sat underappreciated and received little attention except for the odd enthusiast. Shame but what can you do.

The NSX has fallen victim to the same fate the FD has now. Waining interest, reliability, newer more powerful models on the grid. Heck, PD built a second NSX for qualified arrive and drives last season but it never saw a race.

Okay, I have to get back to work here before I'm fired. lol Carpal tunnel is setting in too. :D