How do you enjoy auto-x?
 

Please explain how you enjoy paying 35 to 45$ to be out there for a grand total 3 minutes! Thats 10$ a minute!! Thats insane! Im sorry but between the waiting and the delays and what not its just not worth it. This is from someone that ofcourse has gone to track events, where its ALOT more fun, being out there 30 to 45 mins a run and usually 3 to 4 runs a day. I mean that makes more sense and its cheaper!! *end rant*

I agree for the amount of track time vs. cone time there is no comparing the 2.

Where autox saves you time and money:
- More events, more site, closer to home for me.
- Little prep on the car, not spending 20-40 hours going over the car before the next event.
- Minimal wear on parts and tires.
-Understanding handling is very important over horsepower.
- Fewer $$ spend building a cone car compared to a full track car.
- Risk of damaging car (no walls to hit) and no trailer needed.


I think you can gain a bunch of experience by going to AutoX, seat time is over quickly, but watch and learn from the best. Learn to set up your car and learn to be smooth.

I miss track time on real race tracks but after the last tangle with a GTI and later a Miata, I was forced to cut the car into pieces because of all the damage. Did not really want to spend the time and money to build another safe track car so I autoX just for something to do.

Remember this: GOOD autox drivers make good road racers, but good road racers do not make good autox drivers.
Well that is according to the Cone heads..... :bigthumb:


John

Our local events are $21 for four runs @ 40-50 seconds each. Club members pay an average of ~$16 per event.

Standing around all day, having a short course that only gets u in first or second gear, quick runs and too many course designs favoring cars that can turn short but can't turn at speed, etc. . gets annoying, but it's a good deal around here compared to real track time.

There is a semi-local event each year where a large go-kart track is used and the runs are about 4 min. each, top speed ~80+ from what I've heard. That event should be fun, and I'm going to try to make it to that one.

Autox requires less cost and less preparation for the car. U don't need upgraded cooling or to replace brake pads for autox events. It's a good way to get started in non-drag, non-street racing events that require high amounts of car control skill.

I mean its just so annoying getting there at 7:30am not running until 10:30 am (and I was the first group). How am I supposed to get better, if I get a grand total of 2 to 3 minutes! At 35$ thats around 10$ a minute! Compare that to track time where you get 3 to 4 sessions anywhere between 30 to 45 mins, I just dont see it. Also the track Ive gone to 3 times already I have not seen a crash just yet, not people crashing into each other (even though I know its possible). Just commenting.

Autox is about strategy. I spend a lot of thought on analysis of my runs beween them and between events. It is a high speed chess match. I guess it sux to not get to drive enough and get a feel for when everything is right. That is its downside. I wish there were larger courses but asphalt is hard to find for race events.

I think if they limited the people and charged an extra few dollars it'd be well worth it. Yet im sorry it was insane, and not worth the time and money honestly. Id rather just save my cash and prep the car for track, and have more time to hone my skills and test the cars ability.

I understand what you are saying, Fatman. Auto-x WOULD be an extremely good tool for teaching car control and momentum conservation, IF you would get enough seat time. That said, I think the time I have spent auto-x has been very beneficial, as far as track driving and even street driving in general. If nothing else, I need two events a year to maintain Mazda Motorsports membership...:)

Personally to me though, I could care less about being competitive in auto-x. I can't imagine not doing a mod to my car because it bumped me into a different class. I could care less...:)

I just wouldnt go again in a stock FD, it makes no sense competing against z06s and Vipers. I mean WTF? I heard they allow catback and intake, so when I take my car (I took my dads since mine was down) thats what I'll say. You should have seen the ss class this is what it looed like:

name Car Time
****** Chevy z06 58.55
****** Chevy z06 61.51
****** Chevy z06 57.12
Javier Mazda Rx-7 O/C =P
****** Chevy z06 58.31

I was like w00t w00t I GOT OWNED!

To me autocross isn't just about seat time. I enjoy the whole day, not just the three minutes I'm driving. I get rides with other people, BS in the grid, etc. I get to talk like a car geek all day! My wife never lets me do that at home. :)
AX also forces you to ramp up your learning curve. You don't have lap after lap to fine tune every corner. You have to fix every corner in just a few runs. It gets easier with more experience.

I guess I'll try it a few more times. Also I talk enough car geek stuff nearly everyday with my group of friends so an auto-x is like an overload of it =P.

I guess you haven't checked out the price of tracking your car. Most estimates I've read suggest about $1000 a weekend. Compare that to the $20 I pay to autocross, and it seems like a bargain.
The key to autocross is the entire exeperience, not just the 50 seconds you're driving. I enjoy hanging out with the rest of the drivers, discussing lines, times, etc.
Second- you should be fairly close to the Corvettes out there. Make that your goal. The FD is not entirely uncompetative in the SS class- just ask Damon. Sure, he'll be the first to admit that the Z06 piloted by a skilled driver is nearly impossible to beat, but that's not to say you can't be competative. As a novice, you're GOING to get owned. Keep practicing and try to ENJOY yourself. Where else can you spend $20 and legally drive your car like Mario Andretti?

He's referring to HPDE's which are usually in the $200-400 range (depending on the group).

Well I was expecting to get owned none the less, but the whole talkign with my buddies thing i do that enough =P. Also (as Mahjik stated) I was talking about the track days that are around 300$ in my area and you usually get 4 sessions at around 30 to 45 mins a session. I mean for that price, its really hard to compare it to auto-x. I may continue to compete just to get the discount for the Mazda stuff.

I have 20 weekends of weekend track time and it's $400 a weekend for room, board, travel, gas, track fees. After doing track weekends I've gone back and done a few auto-x and was dissapointed with the experience. Gotta register by 8am or it'll fill up. Wait for 2 hours then work track for an hour. Wait another 3 hours then drive for 3 minutes and go home. Almost entire day spent waiting.

BUT it's a very good way to learn car control and setup. Get to meet good people. Drive fast. Great for entry level people to get their feet wet driving on a cone track. Just not a productive use of time.

comparing autox to hpde is like comparing pingpong to tennis. similar but different :) two completely different activites.

Personally I have a great time when I autox but it's with a group of laid back guys who don't take it too seriously.

I guess thats my problem then. If Ive never been to a track event then maybe I would have enjoyed it more, but since Ive been to a track event and had such a good time riding more than one minute I guess that explains it =/.

One thing autox will teach you is how to get "brave" with the car. Slowing from 140 mph into Turn 1 (assuming you still have brakes) at your favorite racetrack is not the best way to learn trailbraking techniques IMO; the risks are too high for a mistake. Most (non-idiot) drivers realize this and always keep a little extra in hand. On an autox course however you can screw up without hurting yourself, the car or someone else. You can push the limits and not pay the full price of a mistake.

I would never consider teaching a newb to drive by taking them to the track first. He'll either get scared or he won't learn anything other than how to not fall off the track. He needs to understand the concepts first.

I was trailbraking in the auto-x a bit, is the back supposed to come out a bit when I do this? As I entered the turn (while turning) I would give it some brake to get the back to come out some, then give the gas, I would get a small slide but enough to get me though the turn at a good speed and angle for the next turn.

I've done 2 AutoX days and couldn't believe that I was standing around so much and only got to race for 3-4 minutes total. I did help out with managing the course (flags/fire xtinguish) but overall I would never do it again.

I've done a few HPDE days and I'm hooked. 20-25 minute sessions 4-5x a day is the best. Plus you are chasing/getting chased around the track which makes it even more of a blast. My 2nd HPDE day I got a 2 hour open track session at the end with everyone on there. It was awesome. My back is drenched with sweat from driving hard for so long and I'm soo pumped afterwards. It is a nice stress reliever.

About $149 per day then add in the cost of gas/food etc. However if you take out your chick for a big night it is about the same price (dinner, wine, post drinks, club).

-Mark

Keep in mind, that $1000 figure includes wear items like brake pads, rotors, and tires in addition to the room/board and track fees.
And obviously it varies from car to car. I know a good set of brake pads (which will last about two HPDE events) cost $250 for my C5. Add $50 for new rotors, gas, etc... It's NOT cheap.

I don't know about that. We've all seen the video of that Vette taking out those people on the AutoX course. :D

"relatively speaking", of course. I managed to be one of the statistics and wreck my car on an autocross course. Most of the time it's very safe. Sometimes it's not quite "as" safe. :(

I'd still insist that both you and the bystanders are safer at an autox than walking or driving down the street :p:

Oh, absolutely. :yesnod:

Is that just a Vette thing? :bigthumb:

;)

Please enlighten me on how you did this. Like really I need to know. The worst I could see doing is, maybe spinning out and hitting a curb, bending a rim or something. Not in a bad way, but I was surprised to see how anything bad could happen, going at such low speeds. Maybe your auto-x is different.

Well, where to begin...

Basically, it was a very small parking lot with storm drains and various other obsticles strewn throughout. I made sure to take special note of where there was insufficient runoff and obsticles, but I failed to notice one part.
The finish line had a 120 degree left corner followed by a slightly right-hand sweeper through the lights. I got on the gas a little too hard through the sweeper and the car stepped out left (oversteer). I lifted the throttle and countersteered which resulted in a spin the other direction. About 15' outside the "track" on the OUTSIDE of the sweeper was a "No Parking" sign. Filled with concrete. I basically slid the car sideways at about 30 MPH into it.
Needless to say, the pole didn't move much.

Did about $10k worth of damage. :(

It was my fault for losing control of the car, but the safety steward's fault for placing the course in such a poor locaiton with insufficient runoff.
The really crappy part: I seriously considered not running after seeing the course. I felt it wasn't safe, yet I ran anyway. Bad move.

I guess we learn, and then become poor huh =/ Did your insurance conver it? This track had a decent amount of runoff, actually enough that I missed a cone (off track), and went back in without hitting a cone =P.

[Edit] What happens if you run the FD (stock) with 19 psi of tire pressure? Just wondering ofcourse =P.

Since I just got my car basically, I've only had chance to do one autocross, and I'm planning on doing another on Sunday. I had an absolute blast and learned more than I thought possible. Sure I got owned by everyone else, but I had fun, and I learned more about my car. I had great feedback from my friends there, one even rode with me on my first run to help me out, and I made sure to work the corners where I thought I could improve and I really think it helped.

At the end of the day I got to do 2 fun runs, and my last run was 13 seconds faster than my first run.

That being said, I can't wait to do some track days, but I don't think I'm ready yet. I feel like there's so much more that I can (and should) learn about my car, myself, and driving from autox before I go to a HPDE.

Just two cents from a newbie :)

After driving the car for a year (my car), its hard to really learn new things about it. I mean I did, but nothing out of the ordinary. Just braking which is important but I didnt even have enough time to remember the track AND control my car. I was to much into the car and forgot about the track. Either way, have fun and be prepared for your fist track day, you'll love it. My first one, i wasnt even driving and I had a blast.

I guess it depends on where you autocross or track your car. In the Sacramento region events you can fun run till you melt your tires or run your car out of gas after you're done with your official timed runs. The fun runs are $1 each which they use to help maintain the very nice equipment setup they have for us.

Personally I fun run if I think I've left something out on the course and think I can get a better time by trying something different. If I can't beat my best official time by more than .2 of a second after 3 runs I stop, if whatever I tried is dropping times I keep after it until it levels off.

As far as going to the track with the car, well personally I'd need real seats, fire extinguisher, 5 point harness, minimum of 4 point cage, kill switch, radiator, bigger/second oil cooler, intercooler, and probably a brake upgrade.

On the idea of what you learn at the track versus autocross I look at autocross like somebody else mentioned earlier, like a chess match. Autocross is that part of a chess match after the book runs out and you've got a limited amount of time to make the best decision on the data you have to work with. Track driving is the chess match during the book play, methodical, predictable, and the best way to do it.

In autocross you get a chance to analyze the track and then 3-4 runs at it to get the best time out of your car. After each run you get a brief amount of time to analyze the data, check over your car, and run again. Hopefully by that last run you are driving the perfect slip through each corner and taking the best line right at the limit. On a track you can't really do that unless you are (1) crazy and (2) have an unlimited budget.

Some folks actually like the competition too which you don't really get in a HPDE and budget for a competitive autocross season versus a competitive track racing season is no comparison at all.

But autocross is so slow....I guess I just don't get a speed rush anymore because going 140mph at 7/10ths in my FD is much less "thrilling" than braking from 55 down to 30 as I push around a hairpin corner at 10/10ths for me.

To each is own, it just depends on your style and what you enjoy out of each type of event.

I agree. The sensation of speed does not come from what the speedometer says it comes from how busy you are in the seat and how often the car is changing direction. I did nearly twice the work in about 40 seconds this past weekend than I do for an entire lap at MSR. You can't fix a mistake in an autox if it is a well designed course.

I highly enjoy tracking my car as well but for me it gets boring quickly if I have nobody to chase. Even then it has to be somebody I trust because you don't want to be chasing somebody closely who does unpredictable things like spin in front of you or fall off the track. I don't pass guys like that unless I'm certain I can blow by quickly. I'm not willing to risk the accident in that case; it only takes once.

Hey Damon what happens if you run the FD with 18 psi on the tires?

18 psi of tire pressure? Then I hope those were set while the tire was in a refrigerator :p: I like to see hot pressures around 36 in the rear and 38 in the front, so at a roadcourse I have to start with cold pressures in the high 20's/low 30's. Everyone else's opinion will be different. Different people like different things for different reasons.

are you in the sand? :p:

If you're looking for an alternative to auto-x with the timing aspect still involved, I highly suggest looking for Time Trial/Solo I events in your area. You do not get as much track time as a HPDE, but you do get to go stoopid fast and then compare times to guys in your class or just fastest time overall. I've attended a few time trials with PCA and BMWCCA and had a blast.

The format is usually one morning and one afternoon session. 3-4 cars on the track at the same time. If you catch the guy in front of you, you do NOT pass. You stop and wave to the corner worker .... you get an impede; which is basically a re-run. Each session usually consists of one warm-up lap and 4-6 hot laps.

Nevertheless, I still auto-x because SS competition is very good locally and nationally (duh). Amazing as it seems, I'm getting to the point where the Z06 feels slow on an auto-x course, but the thrill of trying to push the traction limit at all times keeps me interested. It's slightly more exciting for me to try and fit a really big car through a tight transition while carrying a fair amount of speed. On a track, I find that my brain catches up to the speed fairly quickly .... so winding out 4th gear loses its thrill by the end of the day.

That is completely and totally NOT true. I learn something new about my car every time I race- and I've been autocrossing for nearly three years. If you think you've "learned it all", then you're doiong yourself a great disservice. Sure, things start to get predictable and most of the time I know what the car is going to do for any given input. But there's usually one run out there where the car does something I either:

A) Didn't think it could do or
B) Didn't want it to do, yet did anyway.

If you didn't learn anything new, you'd be able to drive a PERFECT run on your second run. I doubt you did that.

In fact- how consistant were your times? Unless they were all within a few tenths, you DID learn something out there.

Thats why I said, the "mostly" nothing new, yes you get to take your car to the limit and see how it is up there, and hope that its good =P.

That was my tire pressure at the auto-x, no wonder I felt all the roll. Also I barely passed inspection, the whole battery tied down thing. The stock FD doesnt come with one.

Actually it DID, but yours probably lost it somewhere along the way. My car was missing the battery tie down as well when I got it.

Yes it does. In fact it comes with a tie down and an enclosed plastic box with lid. All of them just have ended up outside of the car over the years...

Make no mistake about how much force a 25 pound battery exerts when it's under cornering g. I break one stock battery tray every year right where the hold down hooks onto the tray. Since the tray is only mounted on three corners there is a lot of stress in it if you spend a lot of time in fast turns...

And you drive around with 18 psi in the tires yet think you have this whole driving thing figured out??? Maybe you think you have it figured out because you don't appreciate how much you don't know...

That is one of the most ignorant statements I have read on this forum, and that's saying quite a lot. I've been driving this car for almost 3 years, and have been driving for over 13 years -- I still learn more every time I drive at the track/auto-x. You've only been driving for three years, you have a TON of learning to do....

I knew I was supposed to run "at least" 30 front and 28 Rear or something like that, but sadly but group ran first and I didnt have the time to fill. Also this wasnt my car like I stated its my dads so that didnt help the situation, I think "I" need to care for his car.

I just dont see how many more things can I learn or notice about the car unless I modify the suspension and re-learn it again. I mean please tell me something that you learn everytime, maybe Im not seeing it. I wasnt purposely trying to make an ignorant comment , just stating how I feel.

Well, Damon's car is almost completely stock and he's still learning what it can do- just check out the Geez! plots over the last year. He's made improvements across the board. And Damon started out a very good driver.

Post your times from the last autocross: that will make it exceptionally obvious as to how much you can still "learn". If you times are all very close (within a few tenths), then you've mastered the easy stuff.

The truth is, the car reacts differently based on temperature tire pressure, track type, and course layout. Figuring out how to apply all of that on a track is the difficult part.

I still have considerable trouble with: 1) throttle modulation and 2) braking. Especially the braking part. I keep forgetting how much power the brakes actually have when combined with the race tires, so I tend to overbrake. Conversely, the car has obscene amounts of torque down low so it requires a lot of experience to roll onto the gas with enough authority to be quick out of the corner, yet not overdo it. There's a VERY fine line inn my car between heavy acceleration and power oversteer. Finding that point is half the fun!

Your best bet- take a look at your PAX times from the last event and compare yourself those folks that beat you. With the PAX index in place, they beat YOU- not the car. If they can beat you, then you still have a lot to learn.

The point was made earlier that if you can't go out and turn a number of laps within tenths of seconds of eachother you are not consistent. If you are not consistent you cannot be "good"; you're leaving it to luck. Once you are consistent then you sit back and find something else you're not doing as well as possible and devote your time to fixing it. There is always something else to improve on. Improve the worst mistakes first and then move on to the next one.

Car setup doesn't mean anything to driving; that's a whole different aspect. The driver's job is to extract from the car in its present state all of the performance it is capable. Whether that is an F1 car, an RX-7, a Festiva or a golf cart on four flat tires doesn't matter. If you're not getting everything from the car you're not as good as you can be. Car setup improves the laptime of the car, it does NOT improve the driver. In fact the neophyte driver won't be able to get everything out of a well setup car anyway. He doesn't know how to.

If you want to look for one thing that tells you that you screwed up check to see how often you counter steer. 90% of the time if you must counter steer you screwed up.

A golf cart on four flat tires? :rlaugh: :rlaugh: :rlaugh: :rlaugh: :rlaugh:

This is good info, thanks apprecaite it.

What do you mean? The only time I know of counter steering is when the back starts coming out, and I know if your back is coming out that means your slowing down. BTW Im enjoying this info greatly, and plan to try to put it to great use next time around.

i can sort of see your point. ive done it once, and left feeling i could have done a lot better if i had more track time. i didnt get comfortable with the course until about my last run.

Im hoping to get lucky and maybe next time not so many people will be there. They said they had a fathers day one and only 60 cars were there, so that must have been fun. They got an average of 5 runs per person! Now on the other hand this last time I went had 170 cars and man was that crazy, everyone barely got 6 runs leaving at 7pm. =/