Autocrossed my LS1FD today 1st impressions
 

Well, today was our Ice breaker event for the 2004 Autocross sesaon down in Eugene, and my first oopportunity to get my car into some spirited driving since I finished my conversion.

Jeff Hoskinson (Turbojeff) and I co-drove the car in OSPO, which is a local class for "over street prepared" cars with over 2.5L of displacement. Jeff wound up winning the class, while I took third out of I think 8 people. Jeff's best time was .8 seconds sower than the top time of the day, and was third best overall in the morning session. we ran in the first group of the day, so I'm sure we would have been a little faster if we'd let everyone else before us warm up the pavement and clear away all of the little pebbles.

The funniest moment of the day was watching Jeff turn the car sideways and take out about 8 cones. I'd guess that the throttle response crept up on him, but judging by the rest of his runs he adapted quickly.

Anyhow, on to the impressions. First, the low end power is awesome. Powering out of turns takes no effort at all, and if you mash the gas too soon you spin (huh Jeff?).

Handling was really quite good. It is definately different than it was with the 13BREW under the hood (slightly more nose heavy, Jeff and I agree that it's probably due to a different polar moment of inertia).

It was also the first time that I'd run the car with ny new wheels and coilover setup as well, so I haven't had a chance to dial in the ideal settings. My car has a different suspension setup from Jeff's in that my suspension is stiffer, and he runs more negative camber. Jeff seemed to do better than I did at adapting to the car and the course, but I'd guess that's all in driver experience seeing as how it was my fourth autocross.

Today also showed me that there's a huge difference between street tires, the road race Nittos that I have, and true race rubber. If I wanted to get at all serious about being competetive with my times I'll need to step up to some Kumhos or Hoosiers.

Anyhow, to sum up, the car was plenty fast, has a very broad power band, and with a more dialed in suspension and some stickier rubber will be more than a handful. All in all, I was quite pleased with how things went. It was fun. I think Jeff had fun too. Hopeuflly he'll chime in with his perspective.

Now, THAT'S some of the info I wanted to hear about the LS-1 swap....hopefully Jeff will give his impressions. :)

i assume your ls1 is stock, if it is then just wait till you do some minor bolt ons ppl usually see about 30-40 rwhp just from long tube headers. and if you replace the heads and put a new stick in there then its a whole new animal. just imagine 430rwhp in a 2800 lbs street car. good luck to you and have fun i will be ordering mine from hinson later this month.

Motor isn't stock. It's cammed and has an ls6 intake. I ordered the flanges to make my own long tube headers last week. The amount of available space is so tight that you pretty much have to get a custom set.

When AFR releases their LSx heads I'll probably buy a set and then call it good.

Befre I ran the car to day I was thinking I might try to Turbo it. Now, not a chance. It's bordering on overpowering as it is.

Sounds like a great time. Adapting to the course is definitely an experience thing, it'll come. Quite a good turnout for your auto-x if there's that many people running in such a select class.

We had our first event a little north of you today, also. It was wet at ours, how bout down there? Bet that thing's a handful in the puddles.

It was literally my fourth autocross, so I wasn't too bummed about the times. I beat my buddies times in his AWD Talon, and he's usually a few seconds faster than me, so I couldn't have done too bad (relatively speaking)

Weather was awesome. 70º and sunny. I knew it was going to be a good day when I encounterd an RX-8, two reace prepped miatas and 4 race prepped mustangs while merging onto I-5 40 miles north of eugene. All that open road and around ten fast cars makes for an event in and of itself. I had to mess with the RX-8 (who ended up going to the autocross, along with all of the other cars) Good thing it was 6:45 in the morning with no traffic. Can you say 130mph? :D

Apparently none of them knew where they were going because four of them followed me to Jeff Hoskinson's house instead of going straight to the autocross. :)

This hybrid FD is beastly. It sounds very odd when it is sprinting down the straights. You must hear the subdued muscle car sound coming from an FD to know what I mean. It's really strange how I never noticed the rotary sound and how different it is from the V8 sound until today.

Isn't this in the wrong section? :)


-Ted

Speaking from expereice, I can tell you the 8 would be no match for your FD. :D CJ

I didn't thnk so, but apparently I was wrong. I figured that people that actually race their cars would want to hear about Jeff's and my impressions. Jeff even asked me to create the post in the Race Car tech section so that more people would see it. The only people who go into the other engine conversions section are people working on a swap or people looking to pick a fight.

Very cool. I've always thought that would make a killer auto-x car. Some sticky rubber and proper alignment/suspension tuning ... that top time of the day will be your in no time. :)

But just beware the rulebook nazis ... if you go to a bigger event, you'll get bumped into DM, or worse.

Hey Andrew. I actually did the polar moment of inertia calculations of the LS1 vs the rotary. It turns out the difference is tiny. In fact simply moving the battery to the rear of the car will make an order of magnatude more difference than the LS1/rotor swap.

I will post up the calcs when I get home.

Mods, this should be moved back to the Race Car Tech IMHO. I did ask if Andrew would post it up in that section specifically so more people would read it. It is relevant to Racing since we actually raced it.

I have to keep this short since I'm at work...

The power available at throttle tip in is nothing short of amazing if your used to driving a turbo car. Even with the stock twins which can't be beat for low end spool. On my first run I felt pretty comfortable with the car so I pushed it, coming out of a sweeper I got on it and, well 200+ lb ft of torque coming on INSTANTLY surprised me more than I thought it would.

The car is fast, what makes it fast is the FD chassis with good low end power. Of course with any newly modded car it needs some sorting but in reality it isn't that far from where it should be. The Nitto tires gripped pretty well but I do think that some of those new Hoosiers or Kuhmos could be a little faster, maybe by a few tenths.

It might have been the fastest car out there yesterday if we didn't have to run first on the cold and somewhat dirty pavement.

Andrew, bring it down to Medford on 4/4 and run it. Maybe I can run it back to back w/my car;).

The more I learn about the V8 conversions the more I like them:).

I think there were about 150+ cars at the event yesterday. I know for sure there were 91 in the morning session.

Mods, please move this back to the Race Tech forum..

Me too.. :D Sounds like it was a ton of fun.

Jeff, I think you raised a really good point in the last email that you sent me, so I thought I'd put it up here for everyone to see.

...the point I wanted people to get is that a V8 conversion doesn't "ruin" handling specifically. I see it as something the die hard rotary guys should read, no many of them troll the conversion section... I think your car would be a nose heavy pig if you put an iron block and head 350 Chevy in there. It is important for people to understand the differences between the two swaps.


I agree. With an iron head and block my car would be a better looking IROC. ;)

Anyhow, thanks for co-driving Jeff. I wanted your opinion because the rotary community respects your opinions, you're a rotary nut, and no one is going to take anything I have to say as "unbiased".

As for Medford, if I can get someone to take care of my dog for the day I'm there. We can even co-drive again if you want to get a direct comparison of our cars under similar conditions with the same driver.

I'd love to co-drive the car in Medford. It is a go-kart track, speeds are definetly higher with a little pucker factor coming into play coming off the "long" straight @75-80 mph into a tight chicane (good to have ABS there). The entire course is 2nd gear for me except the straight which I hit 3rd. The torque coming out of the corners is really critical, my R1 comes out of the corners at 3500-4500 rpm, a little low on the power curve. That is why I'm going with the 4.33s.

I'm going for the record in SM2 or ASP in my R1, I got the "Fall Enduro" record beating out a Z06 with a 3X national champ behind the wheel:) in SM2. I'd love to try it in your car later that day, they won't let me have the record running two cars the same day though. It would be a good comparison though.

Here were the results for last years fall Enduro, I ran SM2.

http://www.ssccmedford.com/X_2003/Re...3/03Enduro.htm

A pic of the track:
http://www.ssccmedford.com/Track.htm

this is very good news.....

now take it out on a road course and tell us how it is.....

LS1 FD.......;)

-Mark

moved and upped due to popular request

Thanks Damon. I'll actually add some info about my setup to make the thread more "technical" ;)

For those of you that are curious here are the relevant mods. Unfortuantely the car is still running off of the stock tune, so it's down on power relative to what it could/should make. One of these days I'll get around to tuning it, I just need to pick up a wideband.

Engine:

Thunder Racing 230/224 cam
LS6 Intake
Homemade Cold air intake

Suspension and tires:
Freshly rebuilt stock calipers, new rotors, and new porterfield R4-S pads
JIC FLT-A2 coilovers set on full soft for this event
Complete set of Jimlab bushings
SSR competition 17x9.5 w/ Nitto 555R2 275/40/17 on each corner
-1.2 degrees of camber all around, zero toe

The car weighed 2960 on a truck scale off Santa Clara rode just off Highway 99 with ~2/3 of a tank of gas, and 52 lbs of tools, coolant, laptop, waxes and soap, and the spare in the back. The running weight was probably 60-80 lbs lighter for the event, but I didn't have time to stop at the scales on the way home. :( One of these days I'll manage to make it up there with my camera.

Oh, the new Kumho V710s will be more than just a few tenths faster. Let's put it this way ... last Sunday, I was 2 seconds faster than well-driven A3SO3-shod Z06's (of course, I'm in a Z06 too...). Invest in the new V710's ... I promise you won't regret it. :)

Set the front coilovers stiffer, maybe halfway. Bump up the rears maybe 1-2 clicks. MORE CAMBER. 1/8" toe out in the front or maybe zero ... depending on how you like to drive. 1/4" toe in on the rears. It'll be like a whole new animal. :D

Glad to hear you like the Kumhos. I've been reading about those a bit and was curious to see what people's impressions were. They look a lot like Hoosiers, but they're some $50 cheaper per tire. FWIW the fastest PAX time of the day (and 3rd fastest overall) at our icebreaker event was running those. I hadn't seen them before and actually thought they were Hoosiers until I saw the Kumho lettering.

I'm guessing that's the route I'll go when the Nitto's wear out. The 25.7" tire is just a tad too big for the front, so I will likely pick up another set of wheels for street use and strap on the V710s (275/40/17 of course) for racing days.

Hmmmm...this is one of those gray areas kinda deal then.

I'm assuming that if I were to look into this section, it would consist more of RX-7's with 13B motors.  The V8 conversion would make your vehicle run into those "Unlimited" or "Everything" classes, which are either very sparse or uncompetitive versus all those V8 converted British roadsters.

The tech content is nice, but I question how applicable the information is for most people using the 13B?



-Ted

You're right it's a gray area thing. I was fine with the explanation Damon ahd given me for moving the thread in the first place, and I'm fine with it being moved back.

As for classification, I pretty much go right into the unlimited classification where anything goes. Why I can't be competitive with a bunch of roadsters though, I don't know.

There's plenty of power on tap with the conversion that I haven't even touched yet. Displacement can go all the way up to 7.5L with the same engine footprint. There's also power adders if need be (I likely won't).

As for how useful the information is, that's going to depend on the individual reader. My car weighs about what it should have with the 13B in it, and none of the suspension gemoetry has changed. So, impressions of the Nittos are relevant, as are impressions of the JICs. And some people who are on the fence about the conversion may want to hear impressions of how a converted car performs. Just because you don;t want the conversion for yourself doesn't mean it's not a viable option for anyone else.

Of course, we already know your opinion of whether or not this belongs in this section, so if you're just going to show up every couple of posts and break my balls because my car no longer has a 13B in it, save yourself the trouble.

If I was giving my impressions of autocrossing my 20B powered car you probably wouldn't give me any shit over whether or not the post was in the right forum.

I'm trying not to dump on you personally, but you have managed to strike a nerve. I mean really, after awhile all the PMs and emails from people telling me what a bastard I am, and that they hope I rack my car up because of the powerplant in it get old. It's a fucking engine people, get over it already.

For JIC FLT-A2, I run 14 clicks front and 8 clicks rear.
The stiffer the front the easier the turn in would be.

Really, I don't give a shit what you run in your RX-7, but I do have my personal opinions on those pistons swaps.  There is no need to go into that, as that is besides the point.

I question the validity of the content - that's it.  You can state that (static) weight is very close to a 13B, but I find it impossible to believe that dynamic weight differences are the same or similar.  At the very least polar moment is changed - how much?  I think we will never know, as finding out an objective answer takes a multi million dollar machine to measure.

I also believe power output has a direct impact on suspension reaction.  With that said, it's pretty moot to mention that the powerband of a V8 engine is vastly different than a 13B engine.  This, to me, makes reference to V8 RX-7 performance in regards to suspension quite questionable.

It's funny you mention 20B...  There's a pretty lengthy discussion in the 20B section on suspension set-up on a 20B FD, and I question whether it was better to move the thread into the suspension section.

Before you go bust my balls, it was never my intent to question the V8 swap.  I just question the application of the thread into this Race Car section...that's all.  After thinking about all the other sections in this forum, I think you're right - this is about as good as it gets in the Race Car Tech section.


-Ted

SOME OF US WANT TO KNOW HOW THESE SWAPS CAN RACE! I don't check the conversion section. It is boring. It is for tech related discussion, not racing. If I hadn't seen the thing in action with my own eyes, this thread would be important to me. Turbojeff regularly gets top time in his FD and was a few slots off that rank this event in a car that he had no prior experience in . . which kind of hints that the car he was in was a decent platform.

I originally moved this thread out of the Race section and then I moved it back because the racers seemed to want it that way, so this is where it will stay. The intent of wingsfan is to share his race experiences with the car so that suits me fine.

God has spoken :D :D :D


...polar moment, weight distribution, over powering the chassis and whatever else can be argued until everyone is blue in the face. The stopwatch doesn't lie. A car that is racing has only one thing it needs to do well: Get to the finish quickly. This v8 car don't appear to be no slouch :bigthumb:

So how fast was it?

Check the results. We raced the car in OSPO.

http://www.eescc.org/Results.cfm?get...t=BW&selName=*

If the new Kuhmos would have been as much faster as stated the car would have been EASILY TTOD. The Camaro running ESP that beat me was on the new Kumhos.

Remember we were also the first group out. Experienced auto-xers will know that times drop as the dirt/grit is swept off the line and the pavement warms up a little. Remember it is March:).

I'm going back to take care of my new baby (literally).

Holy shit, someone gets it. (I know you've gotten it all along, but just pretend)

It is absolutely ludicrous that people make such a dramatic production of debating the effects on weight distribution, polar moment, center of gravity, and any other technical reasons they can think of for why a V8 swap "ruins" an FD, but when it all comes down to it, they'd likely get their asses handed to them at any venue by a decent driver behind the wheel of that "ruined" car...

So Damon, where do you think the horsepower per liter advantage of the rotary engine comes into play when stock for stock, it can't outperform a car (oh, I don't know, let's say a Z06 Corvette) which weighs a few hundred pounds more and has less than half the horsepower per liter? :p:

You start off saying someone gets it and immediately start talking liters and weights

:confused:

Stock z06s on a road course get in the way of a well modded fd with equal drivers. One cost 50k and the other cost 25k. Choose your poison but in my world money matters. To me its how fun is the trip, what the trip cost, and how succesful was it or how much did I learn. In that order. I'd rather vacation with an fd if you get my drift :)


Turbo Jeff,
I can't wait to ride in or drive a v8 converted FD sounds like a great trip ;)
Fritz

:eek:




You really are a Dork Ted. So tell me...been on any roads over there in Honolulu where you can top out your car. Or is the Rust eating at your car so much that your just a Crabby person?

Hell yes I want to know How the LS1 Rex handled. I was there taking photos of the car that same day. To top it off there really cool guys.


KEEP UP THE FEED BACK!!!!!!!


:blue:

Perhaps you'd better read my post again.

See above, and keep an eye out for the words "stock for stock".

A new FD in 2004 dollars would easily be in the high $40k-low $50k range. In fact, the window sticker on my 1995 PEP was $41,000 and change. If we're going to argue about price, someone who couldn't afford the Corvette probably couldn't afford a new FD either... something to think about.

That would be ASSuming that there is an advantage in the horsepower per liter category. ;)

Alright, enough with the bench racing BS. A cool car is a cool car .... whether or not it violates your sense of what's right and wrong. I want to see this car dialed in. :)

-Don

Precisely. It's unfortunate that more rotary lovers bragging about high power to displacement ratios don't understand that.

Wingsfan, those are some pretty decent times, considering you're on Nittos with less than one season auto-x experience. You'll notice a lot of improvement on race rubber, but it will also tend to mask a lot of your weaknesses too, if you want to learn to drive well, get into a lower-powered car for a few events, the lack of power will force you to improve your technique if you want to improve your times. If you trust the DSP Miata guy, ask him to switch rides for a bit, see what times you guys get in each others' cars. The Miata drivers in my region are pretty talented.

Speaking of which, what is the calibre of the other drivers that had similar times, namely the Miata, the VW's, Camaro, and 'Vette? How well-prepped were they? You should have them all majorly outclassed, with the exception of maybe the VW's, depending on their setup.


I'd really like to see a comparison of Turbojeff's ASP-prepped car vs. the LS1, if possible in-car footage of the same driver in both cars on the same car.


-s-

Yup, I definately need some more seat time, which I intend to get. Unfortunately I'll be moving this summer, so I won;t get a full season in.

As for the DSP miata, that thing was pretty much a full on race prepped car, complete with the cage, racing seat, real race rubber, and semipermanent numbers/letters. He was definately fast, and in complete control of his car.

As for switching cars with anyone, Jeff is pretty much the only person I know there, other than my friend with the SM talon (Ed Allen). I've driven his car several times, but never in a competetive setting.

It's tough for me to say who's a good driver and who is not, given my relative newbie-ness. As mentioned before, the guy in the Miata is obviously a good driver, the two people running the ESP camaros (tim and Pegy Steck), are ususlaly competetive, but rarely the TTOD. The two guys in the rabbit are both good drivers, and that things is pretty much a shell (I think you could lift the back end up without a jack, it's that light).

Jeff did manage to beat the time of the top SS Z06, which has a decent driver, ran later in the day after the surface was warmed up and cleaned off, and the car was running Hoosiers (complete with foil tire warmers for the time in between runs :rolleyes: ). Both Bill and Cheryl usually turn in respectable times, but again, not usually the TTOD. The other Z06 has a decent driver as well, but he's more used to the little race track they run down in Medford than cones. He was also on Hoosiers.

The CMod camaro is usually pretty fast (and entertaining), and is definately a trailer queen. They run a gutted car with massive race tires, race gas, and an open exhaust.

All in all, my car held up pretty well against all of the usual contenders.

That was our original intention but Jeff's wife was very pregnant at the time, and he didn't want to spend all day at the autocross. I will be wifeless for the next two months here, so hopefully we will be able to do some co-driven events and get a better comparisson sorted out. I'd guess that Jeff would be faster in his car because he's already got it sorted the way he likes it. But, who knows, more time behind the wheel of my car and he'll only get faster. :)

As for footage, I don't see that happening unless we can find someone to loan us a camera, plus then we'd have to carry a passenger (an extra 200# of useless weight), as I haven't gotten around to putting a cage in just yet. :D

The competitive drivers in this club are a lot better than me, if that helps. I'm the 87 FC just above the OSPO V8 FD. :)

I've autocrossed a few times in a couple different cars, both with street tires, and each time I have come away learning a new technique to get through the course faster. This last time I had to forget my front wheel driving technique and learn how to handle the FC at its limits. It was very different from my 88 Integra.

How did the Rx-8 do? CJ

Looks like I touched a nerve here...

I never questioned the car being fast.
I never questioned the car's performance.
I never questioned the car's technical aspects.

I questioned it's relevance to this race section when the majority of vehicles are RX-7's with 13B's in them.

So people start insulting me and where I live...
That's just plain stupid - how old are you???

If the technical content of this thread is demanded, then so be it.
I never said to get this thread out of here in the first place.

Personally, I think the car is waste of time when you're trying to run in an "unlimited" or "everything" class.  There are a lot more other combinations that will go faster (Ultima GTR or any other spec racer kit) with probably a lot less money.

My replies to this thread ends here.



-Ted

Ultima GTR with less money in it :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Those are about $70K before you've even thought about an engine. I have less than half of that in my car.

That makes my day Ted. :)

The sad thing is, I agree with you. If I were trying to competitivly race the car then it's a dumb move. The whole point for me is to just have fun. Because I spend 99.99% of my time driving the car on the street, it's no big deal. I just happen to autoX from time to time.

Very nice logic. So it would mean that we shouldn't buy cars at all then. Because every time something came out e.g. Z06, something else comes out 5 yrs later that outperformed it with less money(inflation considered). Is that correct ? That makes you look very smart indeed pouring untold tens of thousands of dollars into a hybrid FD when you can buy a new Z06 for near the same price.

One question for you and wingsfan, why don't you just buy a Z06 like redrotorR1 did ? A 2001 sell for just above $30k nowadays which I'd presume comes close to total cost : $10k FD, $6k engine/trans, $5k custom parts, $10k labor and misc stuff.

I have nothing against LS1 as it is one the lightest, most efficient, compact V8 that is available readily anywhere. But you can't argue with physics. It is longer, taller, and heavier than the 13B turbo. One g in my house is one g at your house(or slightly different if you live in the equator maybe). Steering will feel number, more understeer, bump steer will occur, etc. Ever wonder why P-cars, F-cars, NSXs, Lemans race cars, F1 cars, etc put their engine in the back ? Or why the new Z,G35, S2K touted superior handling due to front midship design ? Or even why the Corvette put their transmission in the back ? Or why the Viper has such a long front end ? Hope you get the drift here. If you just wanted huge torque, reliability, and good looks, buy the new Mustang then.. oh wait Mustand =/ reliability.

I thought about it for sure, but at the time I startwed you couldn't get a z06 for what they are going for now, and I already had the FD on hand. Plus there was the challenge and the pleasure associated with all of the troubleshooting and fabrication. I acquired a number of slkills, and a ton of information about how a car works that I wouldn't have by just plunking down the money for a vette.

Quote:

---

I have nothing against LS1 as it is one the lightest, most efficient, compact V8 that is available readily anywhere. But you can't argue with physics. It is longer, taller, and heavier than the 13B turbo. One g in my house is one g at your house(or slightly different if you live in the equator maybe). Steering will feel number, more understeer, bump steer will occur, etc.

---

These comments here tell me that a) you haven't driven an LS1 powered FD, and b) you haven't put any thought or research into the conversion process at all.

Yes my engine is larger, longer, and heavier. The bulk of the weight of the enginie is also lower in the chassis. Bump steer is corrected with the use of an adjustable height tie rod. Steering feels about the same as all of the steering related equipment remains.

Your suggestion that the car is going to understeer is laughable. The car's tendencies with regard to over/understeer if anything are biased toward oversteer, and either way those tendencies can be manipulated with the suspension setup.

Even the age old argument of disrupting the 50:50 balance is BS. My car weighs about the same as it should have from the factory. it weighed in at 2960 lbs with 2/3 a tank of gas and 52 lbs of extraneous crap in the car.

I can appreciate enthusiasm for the rotary, and even the cult-like reverence that many people have for them, but that doesn't excuse the actions of many people talking out of their ass about what the converted car "should" be. Quite frankly, when it comes to an LS1 converted FD, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. I've owned the car with both powerplants now, and I can tell you that all of the BS that rotary fanatics like to throw around about what I "ruined" by doing the car is just that, BS. The handling is not "ruined", my car is not a heavy pig, and I'm not going to hell for swapping out my engine. ;)

No, it means that people who make a big deal about "bang for buck" are usually short on "buck".

Actually, my Z06 cost about half of what I have into my FD, but thanks for your concern about my financial situation.

You mean like redrotorR1's father did.

Because we both happened to have perfectly good FDs in need of engines... that weren't rotary.

Not by enough to make a significant difference, it appears.

Or not...

Bwahahaha. This FD kicked some serious a$$ and you guys want to argue about the traditional V8 swap stuff. Lol. The laser timers don't lie!! You can make VW rabbits own everyone if you know what to tweak. This thread turned into another rotary religion confrontation.

Nope, I haven't driven an LS1 powered FD, I have driven a Z06 though and it's probably close enough.

Lower in the chassis ? Mind to elaborate on that ? The 13B could've sit lower and farther back if we make custom mounts as you did for the LS1 anyway right ? Steering feels can't be the same if the the weight resting on wheels are much different and steering geometry is altered(however little it is). Maybe the difference doesn't bother you, maybe it's smaller than I'd expected that's fine.

Realllyyy ? Maybe not so much laughable considering so many of high performance vehicles and racecars went into so much painstaking effort to shed weight in the front. I understand suspension setup and knows how to make a car understeer/oversteer by changing sway bar setups etc. but that's a compromise. Please explain why so many F-cars, P-cars, F-1, etc put their engine in the back then.

:o: yeah right. My FD(when I still had it), weighs 2640 lbs with 1/2 tank of gas, AC, radio, cat, etc still on.
What does 2960 lbs have anything to do with 50:50 anyway ? A 2960 lbs car can have 2000 lbs on the front wheels and 960 lbs on the rear wheels. Your logic IS laughable.

That's cool. I'm not bashing you here, just questioning you, calm down dude. I contemplated on putting in a 4G63 engine in there myself when I still had the car, but never got around to actually do it. Maybe the handling feel does not change much, that's fine. If I'm in the area, I'd love to go check it out.:)

So you're telling me you've never bargain-shop ? You don't have a particular gas station you go to that you know is $0.10/gal cheaper than most for the fuel-addict FD ? You don't shop at WalMart at all ? Given 2 items exactly the same, you'll buy the more expensive ? You buy new cars at $10k above sticker just for the hell of it ? What exactly do you do ? Many self-made rich people ARE concerned about best bang for the buck, that's how they succeed.

I just wonder why do you always feel the need to justify whether your decision is correct. If you know the route you went is correct then good for you, no need to shout every time that Mazda and everybody else is wrong. Does the thought gnaws at you every night that your decision might be wrong ? Chill out dude, you'll live happier.

What is that got to do with anything ? It's a bit condenscending IMHO.

Or yes...

I don't thik so. I've driven both. While I really like the Z06 the fact remains that it is a much bigger car than the FD. THe Z06 feels very boat-like in comparisson. While the handling stats and the lap times might suggest that they are quite similar, the z06 to me feels more clumsy, the FD quite a bit more nimble. That may be my own personal bias though, as I've never driven them back to back.


No problem, The bulk of the wieght in an LS1 lies in the crankshaft. The intake manifold is composite, and the cylinder heads are aluminum. THe camshaft is hollow, the valves are lightened, etc. GM went to great lengths to make the thing light. The engine actually doesn't sit as far forward as most would have you beleive. The belt driven accessories are the majority of what extends over the axle.

To address your second point, yes there probably is more weight over the steering rack, but not enough to notice. maybe if I went directly from a 13brew powered fd to driving mine the difference would be readily apparent. I don;t notice anything, and Jeff didn;t complain about anything, and he drove his FD to the event, minutes before climbing into mine to run the event.

I understand perfectly well why an all out race car goes with a MR engine setup. To get the bulk of the weight between the axles. I also understand that the FD was/is marketed as a mid-engined car, as that seems to be a big detail that people that dislike these swaps latch on to.

I think you (and quite a few others) would be surprised by how little weight actually sits in front of the steering rack. Again, most of what is forward is the water pump, the crank puley, and that's about it. My AC compressor sites behind the rack, and the PS pump is almost directly above it. I also managed to cut a whopping 26 lbs off of my battery, and positioned it farther back. I'd guess that the overall forward weight difference isnt all that much. By most estimates the 13brew with all the turbo accessories is nearly 400 lbs, while the ls1 is around 430-440 labs. The generally accepted difference in weight is around 60 lbs.


Whoops, chalk that one up to a brain fart on my part. I meant to post this link with it

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hreadid=274368

Basically, the car weighed 1660 with the front axle centered over the scale and 1620 over the rear axle. There's a little overlap in the middle region as we didn't take the time to get it exactly distributed, but the jist of itis that it's damn close to 50:50. Total weight was 2960. I'm sure if I threw my stock wheels back on it would be about 20 lbs lighter than that.

I weighed the tools, coolant, laptop, fire extinguisher, etc. that was in the car when I got home, and it toatlled 52 lbs. So, assuming no scale error (and it has to be within 20 lbs of accuracy by law) that leaves 2908 lbs with 2/3 of a tank of gas. My car is a 94 touring, so it started life as one of the heaviest FDs. Jeff told me that at a national SCCA even in Bremerton, a similar car wieghed 2900lbs with less fuel in it than I had. Anyways, I haven't really done anything other than the battery to lighten it, so it's a pretty good comparisson between the stock setup and the converted one. And the actual weight of the car computes out to much closer to 50:50 than the 2000:960 you're suggesting ;)


I'm calm, I'm calm. :D I just get tired of answering the same questions all based on all the same tired assumptions. There are so many rumors and misinformation floating around that it gets extremely frustrating answering quesitons about the swap. I put a lot of effort and research into the setup before I went for it. I didn't just go grab the first heavy ass iron blocked iron headed v8 I could get my hands on. I went with the lightest all aluminum block that I could get. Someone else already made a kit for the major mounting points, so that saved me a ton of work there.

Anyhow, like I said, instead of just buying a vette what I gained was a ton of knowledge about the workings of a car, a ton more torque, better fuel economoy, and some peace of mind when I romp the throttle. Nothing more. It isn't a magic bullet. It didn't transform my car into a supercar overnight. I don't make ten bajillion HP now. I also didn't sacrifice any weight, handling, or looks.

As for a ride/ checking out my car, I'll take anyone and everyone who's willing to go for a spin. if I nnow you I'll even let you drive. It's far easier to let someone experience it first hand and see what it's like, and what the shortcomings are than to just argue about it online. Everyone I've taken for a ride "gets" it afterwards, even if the swap itself is not for them. Jeff is a perfect example. I seriously doubt you will ever see him perform the swap himself. It's just not his cup of tea. But you bet your ass that he'll jump at the opportunity to co-drive an event with it. :bigthumb: