13bt FC Wont start after a boost
 

Hi guys,

Was out taking my Fc for a drive today. All seemed well and i fine, I gave it a boost in 3rd and as i changed into 4th a noise happened similar to my blow off value.

As i slow down the whole car started to bunny hop so i took it out of gear. the Car started shaking like crazy! I now can't start it, Although it seems to want to start. It fires but dies and make a chattery noise, Something inside me is telling me its blown but a part of me is hoping its not.

I Also tryed crash starting it down the hill on the way back to my parents house, As i did it make another nosie which was the front pulley bolt, It came out and i found it on the road. This all sounds so bad.

Let me know what you think before i have to start pulling it apart.

Thanks in advance

Jamie

There is no "before you have to start pulling it apart" at this point. If the main pulley bolt came out while driving, you will have the pull the front cover at the VERY least. Whether you want to do it in the car or out is up to you, but I prefer doing that sort of thing with the engine out. There's all sorts of damage that could have been done with you using the clutch while the engine was spinning with the bolt out of it. Assessing that takes priority now.

Maybe you blew a hose off or something when your little escapade started, but as I said, that's a secondary problem now. Sort it out after you assess the front stack and get the engine to a point where it would be safe to try starting it.

I wouldn't be surprised if you found copper in your oil. I would drain the oil and check it for bearing debris. It's the bunny hop that worries me. If I had to bet money I'd say you've turned every bearing in your engine. Something seized to make you bunny hop.

Did you have temp issues? I mean, you would've lost a ton of oil right? I stare at my temp and oil pressure more than I stare at the road.

I did notice once i had stop the it, my oil pressure gauge was through the roof. hopefully i will get a chance today to swing upto the olds and have a look at it, I will pull the front cover off and have a look and also i will drop the oil. What am i looking for in taking off the front cover?

So at this point trying to start it is a no go? The bearings letting go could be a very possible thing. there was a really noticeable rattle/chatter when i did try to start it. Are we now saying in my effort to start it once this happend i could of done more damage?

If you find debris your engine is toast.

I had a break today and went up to my parents house and make a start pulling it apart, I dropped the oil first of all and it was fine, no copper or metal shavings. I then pulled the front cover off to find that the key way had slipped out of the front balancer. Could this be the reason it wanted to start, but once i would let the key go it had no weight to keep the rotors from rotating, and was only wanting to start because the starter motor was keeping it spinning? Could the rattle/chattering noise be the keyway grinding on the balancer, Altho it didn't have any marks? I have put it back together as much as i can for now. the water pump in it has seen better days so i want to get a new one while i am at this stage. Do you guys know where i can find the gaskets that hold the water pump, Front cover and the the water pump housing to block?

Could something as simple as the front balancer not being attached though the key way stop the engine from going?

If you didn't pull the front counterweight off, then you're going to have to. The thrust bearings, washer and spacer are all behind it, and assuming they are not FUBAR'd, they will need to be oriented in a specific way in order for you to put it back together correctly (which is the reason I like to have the engine out). Rattling and chattering could be bearing or could be things hitting the oil pump gear and chain. Sadly, it's anyone's guess.

Take a look here: Front Engine Parts, Counterweights, Pulleys (the photo on the right will show you what I mean).

Those gaskets are available at Mazda. Probably the cheapest price you will find.

The key being out is definitely why it wouldn't start. You're CAS won't turn without it and even worse, neither will your oil pump.
No shavings in oil is good.
I would put it back together and measure end play on the e-shaft before you close it up. Time the CAS. New oil. Then try to start it. The bunny hop still worries me. Something got really hot really quick.

What is the correct way they need to be put back together so it is sweet, I haven't taken the front assembly apart i just relined it to suit the keyway. will it not of held the correct order it needs to be?

Alright i will check with mazda here on gaskets, I probably need to find a parts number list as they are useless here. Could the bunny hop be cause from engine shutting off while still in gear? Almost the same as a stalling hop? How do i measure the end play on e shaft?

This will not work. As I said, you have to pull it apart and put it together the correct way. The order of the parts will not have changed, but by now, the thrust bearings, plate and washer (assuming they are in tact) are definitely out of alignment and you are guaranteed to damage something if you proceed without addressing it.

If there is a way to put this stuff together with the engine in the car, I do NOT know it. I have only had to deal with assembly and setting endplay after building an engine, so they are never yet in the car. Given the procedure I am aware of, I don't know how it could be done with the engine installed, but I won't say it can't be done as fact. Now it is somewhat reasonable to say that you're using the same parts and thus putting it back together with them should yield a correct endplay measurement, but you have not yet checked the parts that matter. So that's moot for now.

What I will say, is given your experience with this, the engine likely needs to come out. Also, the best pieces of advice given thus far are: (1) get the FSM and (2) consult with someone that knows what to do. I have nothing against you learning to do it yourself, and for that there are a few GOOD rebuild videos on YouTube, but you'd probably have to watch the whole thing since the endplay is one of the last steps of a rebuild. Additionally, there will be support for you here on the board.

What do you guys mean about FSM? I have a haynes maunal which walks you through a rebuild so i will have a look at that. Sadly i am the only one out of all my mates that works on cars and i dont know of anyone around that can help without having it take it somewhere and spend some money. I will watch some rebuild videos on youtube also and try to figure out what is involved

I would agree with Diabolical that if its your first time taking the engine out is the way to go. What makes it hard with the engine in is it's sideways and getting the spacer inside the back thrust bearing is a pain but it is possible. It will take some patience to get it in. I cannot begin to explain the importance of your spacer installation. You need to understand the anatomy of that section of the engine to understand what we're talking about. This is a do or die procedure.

FSM=Factory Service Manual. Better than Haynes and available for free online.

Do you have a link to the FSM, I Have read the section in the haynes maunal about changing the oil pump which also states how to put the thrust bearing in. I might be new to rotary but i have works on serval engines before so i'm not completely new. hopefully with background other on others it will help me with this. Ill do my fair share of research before i give it a go. I would like to try doing it with the engine in but if all else fails i will have to take it out. I appreciate all the help you guys are giving me i would be stuck otherwise.

What what i have read the easy way to check the end play is with a dial indicator off the flywheel, Would both of uses agree with that? Also in a video i have watch they put a spring inside the front pulley where the bolt hold the front pulley on. I have lost mine, What are they there for and where do i find a replacement one. I may aswell pull the engine out and go from there

Get the FSM even if you have a Haynes. It's free and as you would expect, it's more thorough. You can't have enough reference materials. You can get it from www.foxed.ca

As far as the job itself is concerned, I did a little digging, so you apparently you can check endplay with the engine installed. In THIS THREAD J9fd3s says it can be done, and I trust his judgment. So as long as you can get the bearings, spacer and plate installed correctly and keep them from moving before you bolt the front cover back on, then I guess you can have at it. I still think it's easier with the engine out, but at this point that is merely an opinion, so get your grain of salt. :)

I am including this thread about THRUST BEARING DAMAGE just to show you how important this is.

diabolical1 you have hit the nail on the head, The trust bearing is toast. I found it odd how when i pulled it apart the spacer was in the front behind the balance wight instead of behide the bearing housing.
I have tired to upload some picture so finger crossed it has work, this is my first time trying to upload I have also added a picture of the shaft as it looks like something in there has been damaged near the cut out? diabolical1 I cant thank you enough, you are my rotor god at the moment

I am having troubles uploading photos, It has me stumped

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...c09ae2732a.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...9733d8adb6.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...9a85e27ae6.jpg

Does anyone know if the spacer with the code s is factory?

Your rear counterweight is most likely damaged from thrust which will make it impossible to set the end play properly. I'm just saying the potential is there. If you do get it back together and your end play is wrong then you'll know that your rear counterweight is damaged. The engine naturally thrusts forward and with your end play being way off your engine was able to damage itself at the rear.

I wouldn't even put it back together. Haul the engine and do it right.

Ouch! :(

Yes, S is the thickest spacer on the list. The link that I posted above will lead you straight to the parts you need. You mentioned that you have the bolt, do you have the thermostat and spring, too? If not, don't forget them or if you choose to delete them, then get the plug.

I'm not sure I understand this. The rear counterweight? Unless he has an aftermarket flywheel, then the rear counterweight is the flywheel itself. Now, I have read of possibly over-torquing the flywheel and having that affect endplay, but I'm not sure how that would apply here.

True, the oem flywheel is the couterweight. That is what the thrust bearing is there for .. to take the "forward" thrust that the engine creates. The engine will move forward eating itself at the back if the thrust bearings aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing.
There is a chance that it was damaged. Hopefully not. And hopefully the eccentric lobes haven't rubbed up against the irons.

Imagine the engine acting as a sliding hammer every time you accelerate.

It makes sense what your saying. I could always here a slight grind from the front from the day i got the car, I brought if from a fella who had rebuild it himself and i guess this is the result from him doing it incorrectly. I brought the car not going as he wasn't able to set the timing correct and had fitted it with the wrong plugs. I have also had problems with the gearbox and in that time i removed the box, The engine is running a excedy flywheel, Does this mean i need to add a counter weight to the back? im going to remove the engine from the car and have a look at the rear to make sure that there is no damage

I had a look inside and the thermostat is in there, it loooks like a pin, does this mean that the spring is inside aswell? The link you gave me above for parts i have looked at but being is new zealand the price of shipping makes it quite pricey. I will go to mazda here and price up the parts aswell. If the back looks sweet i should be fine just putting the front back together with new parts?

Right. I understand the fore-aft movement of the rotating assembly while the engine is running. What I am not 100% clear on, are ALL the ramifications of it. For years, even after building a couple rotaries, I never really gave it much thought. It was actually my 3SGTE that taught me about the thrust that the rotating assembly experiences when you press the clutch, and once I learned that ... BOOM! ... the front stack in a rotary made sense to me.

The way you're explaining what you're trying to say is confusing and I'm not sure if it's what you're saying or a lack of understanding on my part. The way you're describing this makes it sound like there is far more movement than there really is. For example, you mentioned the shaft rubbing against the side housing surfaces, unless I'm missing something, the rotors and stationary gears make that highly improbable.

As I understand it, there is a certain finite amount of movement in the assembly, and we use the thrust spacers to bring that movement into the accepted range, and Mazda designed it so that all thrust issues would be mitigated at the front end of the assembly. That is why it made sense to me when I read about over-torquing the flywheel because that implies you're sort of forcing it further back on the shaft (if that makes sense) and therefore you will screw up the natural movement and the endplay measurement up front. Even the shape of the shaft itself suggests (to me) that the rear is not a huge concern because it sort of comes off the lobe, maintains the axis through the stationary gear and then tapers off to the flywheel area. The front, on the other hand, comes off the lobe and then sort has that blunt area where the thrust assembly interacts with at the stationary gear.

That said, I am enjoying this discussion, but I'm thinking maybe make another thread for it in the General Tech forum and leave Hypo7's thread for his use. Besides, we would probably get input from some bigger brains over there, too.

Diabolical, thanks for refreshing my memory a bit. I am also enjoying this discussion.

I would like to correct something I said earlier. Rear engine damage will NOT affect endplay. I would like to explain in further detail why rear damage can occur in this circumstance. Correct me if I'm wrong; here it goes.

When an engine is running properly the end play is between main journal and the front counterweight. The end play is soley controlled by the spacer.

If we push the e-shaft forward from the rear, what stops it from moving forward? The thrust plate. The thrust washer comes in contact with the needle bearing which rides the rear face of the thrust plate.

If we push the e-shaft backwards from the front, what stops it? Again, the thrust plate. The thrust washer comes in contact with the front needle bearing and it rides the front face of the thrust plate.

Now, let's examine this with the bolt out and the damage that we know of.

If we push the e-shaft forward from the rear, what stops it? The thrust plate does but there have been some changes. The rear needle bearing is severely damaged, the thrust washer is also badly damage and the e-shaft is damaged. What is the significance of this damage? Let's dig a bit deeper.
-e-shaft front main journal is worn and possibly shorter front to back.
-the needle bearing is not as wide.
-the thrust washer is not as wide.

All this results in a difference in distance between the front main bearing journal and the thrust plate, increasing end play, which also results in a difference in distance between the flywheel and the rear main bearing.

With this in mind.. if we push the e-shaft forward from the rear, what stops it from moving forward? It could be the thrust plate... it could be the rear bearing shoulder.

If we push the e-shaft backward from the front, what stops it from moving with the bolt out?!! Hard to say really but it's the forward thrust that matters most.

I'm sure he was wondering why his clutch was acting weird due to the abnormal positioning of his pressure plate(moving farther away).

If I had the time I would measure a lobe and subtract from 80mm then we would know how much clearance you have between lobe and iron.


I would say that given his current situation that this info could be important to him.

All this is very important, can someone please explain to me the difference between a thrust washer and thrust plate? is the washer used to pack out if a bigger spacer is used. or do you use a washer and plate or two plates? I can see in my haynes Manuel that it has two plates but says nothing about a washer?

Also are we know saying that my e shaft is damaged and i should ideally pull the engine apart? is it not a good idea to reassemble and check end play?

I'm just judging by the photo. It seems to be damaged. I could be mistaken.

The thrust washer is the black washer in the photo that is damaged.
The thrust plate is the plate that is bolted to the stationary gear.

It's your call really. I'm just bringing it to your attention that there may or may not be damage at the rear.

The e-shaft does? where the thrust plate sits? i will go have another look, I though you may of men't internally/

The washer is the piece that fits in the front counterweight. The plate is the piece that goes on the opposite end of the stack (in the stationary gear). The front and rear bearings interact directly with each on their outer sides, and they interact with the bearing plate on their inner side.

If you look at the Mazdatrix link I posted above, there is an annotated photo of the front stack. It will show you what's what.

EDIT-
Here, I'll just link it again: http://www.mazdatrix.com/b5.htm

When you put it like this, what you're saying starts to make sense. Once the front stack gets hosed, spec'd endplay goes out the window and if there's more movement up front, then there MUST BE an equal potential increase at the rear. So I can definitely understand where you're coming from now. That said, I've never seen it, but that's neither here nor there at this point. I'm still of an eager student of these cars and engines.

A few of the details you cited are a little confusing, but I think it's probably just a matter of the way we speak - you use the term "thrust plate" a lot and at times I think you meant something else. For the record, that's not a criticism, it's just me saying that I tried to quote-unquote "correct" you in my mind as I was reading. :) I know I'm guilty of doing the same thing in some of the responses I give on this board, too, so again - no offense meant.

Hi guys. Have had a go at setting the end play today and could not get a ready. The e shaft is jammed inside the stationary gear and will not slide in and out. If I leave the stationary gear unbolt it will pull out with the shaft and the only way to get it back to the housing is to lightly tap it with a hammer. Does anyone have an idea on how to free it up without me having to pull the engine apart. The e shaft slides fine apart from the front stationary housing. If I keep pulling it out lighting tapping it back and turning it in between do you think it will eventually free itself back up?

I'll be honest with you. I would've yanked the engine half way through this thread. It's probably in your best interest to think about pulling the engine and doing it properly. Honestly man, if you don't do this right your engine is toast and in the long run you'll be putting in twice the time and we don't even want to think about the money wasted. Yank the engine and pat yourself on the back for doing it right.

I decided to pull the engine out and start pulling the thing apart :( it wasn't easy to pull apart but once it came this was the damage I found. The e shaft that goes though the bearing in the front stationary the lobes seem fine. But the buggered is buggered. It could a bit of beating to free it up. Does any know if I now need to get the e shaft checked for balance?
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...412acef8c7.jpg

Ouch. Your e-shaft must be a paper weight no? Are there any grooves that can catch a finger nail on the eshaft? I had a feeling that you had bearing damage. Is that the only bearing with damage?? If so you're really lucky! Check all your bearings and confirm that they haven't "spun". I've been there man -it sucks.

Its been a very long time since i have posted, Unsure if anyone will jump back on this post but here is what i have found today after closer inspection
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...73cd78b5b1.jpg
Hardening gone?
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...d93370f84a.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...11bece39b4.jpg

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...31cacc1614.jpg

glad to see you're still at it.

i would suggest looking for another shaft. you'll be better off starting with something less "beat up."