Too much to choose from. A little help on what to buy?
I've been wanting to get an ems for a while now, and MS has been very tempting, but until about a week ago I didn't know they had this so I thought I'd have to do a bunch of wiring. Now that I don't have to it's even more tempting but there are about a million different choices with 1, 2, and 3 plus MS3X, JimStim, VR circuits, the Zeal board, etc. that I don't know what I need.
I do know I want MS3+MS3X, I'm thinking this plus that adapter. Would that be all I would need and just connect the two and plug it in and go, after tuning of course? Also, I read somewhere else that some ecu's don't control A/C and a bunch of other options. Would I lose anything with MS? I'm basically running bone stock fuel and spark except a Jacobs Rotary Pro Pack, any wiring to worry about there? I'm assuming not with the PnP harness connector. Thanks for any help. |
Yep, you can use the MS3+MS3X with the PNP adapter. All you'll need to do is wire the MS3 inputs and outputs to the corresponding pins on the adapter, and then run wires to the fuel pump (stock setup switches the fuel pump through the AFM).
You don't really need any kind of stimulator if you aren't building the ECU. You won't lose anything with the Megasquirt. It can receive the A/C request signal and output the signal to turn on the compressor just fine. Or you can bypass the ECU entirely. Not much on the 2nd gen is tied to the ECU besides engine function. |
Sweet, thank you Aaron. Question though, why would I need to run wires to the fuel pump? I understand the whole AFM controlling it, just wouldn't everything work fine with the adapter?
Edit: Forgot to add, would the A/C request signal still need to be programmed into the MS for it to output it? Mine doesn't work right now but these 90+ degree days with 70% humidity are really starting to suck. |
The stock fuel pump is switched by a relay that is controlled by the ECU and a switch in the AFM. Without the AFM the fuel pump will never run. So you can jumper the wire at the AFM, or just replace those 20+ year old fuel pump wires.
As for the A/C, it is as simple as just jumpering the wires together on the stock harness, or programming an output on the Megasquirt to activate when it receives an input. |
Thanks for clearing up the A/C question. Still confused about the fuel pump though, why wouldn't the switch in the AFM still be active?
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Originally Posted by 88_N/A_GXL
(Post 11127454)
Thanks for clearing up the A/C question. Still confused about the fuel pump though, why wouldn't the switch in the AFM still be active?
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Okay, that clears it up. I was just assuming with the PnP harness I could just plug it in, tune it, and go. I wasn't expecting ripping things out and running new wires.
I'm assuming the MAP equivalent is the boost sensor on the shock tower and that's what MS3 references? Also, since the AFM is no longer needed is there a way to wire it open or some way to keep the stock intake routing? MS3 is turning out to be more work than I was expecting. |
Originally Posted by 88_N/A_GXL
(Post 11128006)
I'm assuming the MAP equivalent is the boost sensor on the shock tower and that's what MS3 references?
Originally Posted by 88_N/A_GXL
(Post 11128006)
Also, since the AFM is no longer needed is there a way to wire it open or some way to keep the stock intake routing?
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Did not realize it had an internal MAP sensor. Also, only reason I asked about the AFM was for restrictions purposes, I realize I need to run a new set of wire for the fuel pump.
Now, to save up the money to finally Squirt the 7. |
Squirt is a good choice, i have done several of them over the years. You might find it interesting to know that recently the MS beat out MOTEC in a shoot out.
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Originally Posted by Jarods7920
(Post 11132618)
Squirt is a good choice, i have done several of them over the years. You might find it interesting to know that recently the MS beat out MOTEC in a shoot out.
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Originally Posted by Jarods7920
(Post 11132618)
Squirt is a good choice, i have done several of them over the years. You might find it interesting to know that recently the MS beat out MOTEC in a shoot out.
Was Dieselgeek involved by chance? Ken |
Ah, found it via the Google. That's pretty cool. However it does bring up the point: who is going to tune to the level of chasing 1/10th of a degree of timing on a street car? :) 2nd gen wise, there's a lot more slop than that in the mechanicals of the CAS.
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Finally getting close to d-day on ordering my 'Squirt so I thought I'd stop back in and verify a few more questions I've come up with as I reread through Aaron's guide for about the 30th time, can't really find a guide as good as that that covers MS3.
With this setup am I going to need to add the 2nd VR circuit? How about the BAC mod? E-fan? Pullup resistors? And lastly, for now, what about the CLT and IAT sensors, will I need different ones? |
With MS3, you should be able to run everything on the engine with no mods to the MS. Just get a standard V3 or V3.57 board, ms3, ms3x, hook them together, wire them up per the MS3 manual, and set the proper settings and you should be good to go.
Ken |
Well, it should be delivered tomorrow. Damn, that got shipped out FAST! I ordered it yesterday around noon. Hopefully I should be running by Monday, but I've still gotta rip out the AFM, rewire the fuel pump, and run a vac line into the car.
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DIY AutoTune is the best company I've ever dealt with online, no question.
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Yea, got mine earlier today. Wish I woulda known that I needed to order a db37 cable. At least it comes with the connector and I'm fairly decent at soldering. What guide would you recommend for wiring the MS3/MS3X to the DIYBOB?
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Don't know if there is such a guide. If you do have an '88 GXL as your name suggests then the ECU wiring diagrams in the Haynes are accurate. Combined with the pinouts in the FSM for the ECU plug it shouldn't be too hard.
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Yea, I forgot the FSM had the pinout. So following this I need spark A-C, fuel A-D, EGO2, PWM Idle, and Launch under suggested MS3X mode and just match them up to the FSM layout? Oh, and MS3X will control the fuel pump relay but I can't find the pin in the 04a FSM.
I feel like I'm missing some things... |
Arg! That Haynes manual is making my eyes hurt. I suck at reading wiring diagrams. I pm'd muythaibxr to see if he can help me out.
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I do not help people in PMs. Most of the time if you have a question, the answer to that question can benefit everyone else.
Please ask questions about what you're having issues with specifically and I will answer those questions in the public forum. Ken |
Okay, well, this doesn't tell me anything about how to hook up my A/C request just that it can control it. Page 289, pdf page 9, in the Haynes Manual has the main A/C relay but goes to "F" on the control unit, that doesn't tell me which pin on the ECU that is.
Then, what about fuel pump? DIYAutoTune says it can run that from the stock ECU so I won't need to run a new wire, but what pin is that? Is that 3B on that same Haynes Manual page? What about my O2 sensor? Does that go to pin 24 on the MS3 or pin 22 on the MS3x? Also, what about neutral/clutch switches? Or are they even connected to the MS? FSM says the shift indicator light is output from the ECU so which pin on MS is that go to? I've got more questions but I've got a class I have to be at in 15 minutes. |
Originally Posted by 88_N/A_GXL
(Post 11242409)
Okay, well, this doesn't tell me anything about how to hook up my A/C request just that it can control it. Page 289, pdf page 9, in the Haynes Manual has the main A/C relay but goes to "F" on the control unit, that doesn't tell me which pin on the ECU that is.
The AC switch would normally be pin 1E (third from the right on the top of the largest connector). The AC main relay would be pin 1F (Directly under 1E). On the MS side, you can hook the switch input to any of the pins listed in the AC idle-up configuration page for the input, and the relay can hook to any of the pins on the output setting of the AC idleup page. Then, what about fuel pump? DIYAutoTune says it can run that from the stock ECU so I won't need to run a new wire, but what pin is that? Is that 3B on that same Haynes Manual page? What about my O2 sensor? Does that go to pin 24 on the MS3 or pin 22 on the MS3x? Also, what about neutral/clutch switches? Or are they even connected to the MS? FSM says the shift indicator light is output from the ECU so which pin on MS is that go to? Ken |
Well then, the DIYAutoTune.com write-up needs to be corrected as it does say just wire to the fuel pump relay wire on the stock ECU.
I never planned on using a NBO2, I've got an Innovate MTX-L but, thanks for the assumption, O2 connection would still be an O2 connection be it WB or NB. Also, you never answered that question after your assumption, does it go to pin 24 on the MS3 or pin 22 on the MS3X? According to my Mitchell OnDemand wiring schematic, the clutch sw, starter cut relay, neutral sw all connect to the ECU, pins 1L, 3D, and 1G which are also the same in the FSM, so what's to stop the engine from starting in 1st gear with the clutch out on MS3? |
Originally Posted by 88_N/A_GXL
(Post 11244268)
Well then, the DIYAutoTune.com write-up needs to be corrected as it does say just wire to the fuel pump relay wire on the stock ECU.
I never planned on using a NBO2, I've got an Innovate MTX-L but, thanks for the assumption, O2 connection would still be an O2 connection be it WB or NB. Also, you never answered that question after your assumption, does it go to pin 24 on the MS3 or pin 22 on the MS3X? It does not go to the MS3x at all, it goes to the standard O2 pin on the main board. You'll want to make sure you use a 0-5v output, and you'll have to calibrate the MS for that controller. According to my Mitchell OnDemand wiring schematic, the clutch sw, starter cut relay, neutral sw all connect to the ECU, pins 1L, 3D, and 1G which are also the same in the FSM, so what's to stop the engine from starting in 1st gear with the clutch out on MS3? The inhibitor switch is only used with the auto transmission as far as I can tell. There is no need to hook any of that to the MS unless you're trying to use launch control or similar. Ken |
Well, I do want launch control as I plan on the ocassional tracking, but I thought that was just a switch activated feature.
Also, an O2 connection, I thought, was an O2 connection no matter what since the MTX-L, and others I've read, can output a NB signal. But, then what is the EGO2 for on the MS3x? |
Originally Posted by 88_N/A_GXL
(Post 11244688)
Well, I do want launch control as I plan on the ocassional tracking, but I thought that was just a switch activated feature.
Also, an O2 connection, I thought, was an O2 connection no matter what since the MTX-L, and others I've read, can output a NB signal. But, then what is the EGO2 for on the MS3x? You don't want to use the narrowband signal, you want the 0-5v signal (that tells you 10:1 to 20:1 AFR instead of just stoich, lean, or rich). If you calibrate the MS for this, it allows you to put values in the AFR table and target the specific AFR you want instead of only being able to target stoich. Ken |
Cool, well I just got my premade connectors from DIYAutoTune so I should be soldering them up to the BOB later but I think I've got most everything figured out now, though I could be back with more questions. Thank you Ken and Aaron.
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Okay, so the FC write-up says Ne- goes to pin 2 but that is the shield, the black wire is pin 1. Should I assume the write-up is wrong again?
And, the coil 12v switch ones, do those get switch power straight from the battery? Edit: I feel stupid, 1,2,7-19 so it wouldn't matter on the Ne- correct? |
Now, I've got CAS, WB, fuel, and spark wired up to the BOB, assuming 12v comes straight from the battery. I've also got 12v switched to the ECU in as well.
What else am I going to need? I know BAC but which does that go to? MS3 PWM idle says it does 0.8a and the MS3x does 3a, or would it matter? I still have to do CLT and IAT, but I feel like I'm forgetting something. What about all the solenoid rack? |
Just went with BAC on the MS3x. Just finished CLT and IAT. Now, I'm still undecided on how to do the fuel pump. Is the MS fuel pump control just a ground or does it send power? If it was a ground I was thinking of just jumping the test connector and running 3A from the stock ECU to the MS fuel pump control.
I really don't wanna have to rip out my amps and sub box and carpet again just to rewire the pump and I don't want to just have a single hanging wire on the connector running back into the interior. |
Originally Posted by 88_N/A_GXL
(Post 11244919)
Okay, so the FC write-up says Ne- goes to pin 2 but that is the shield, the black wire is pin 1. Should I assume the write-up is wrong again?
And, the coil 12v switch ones, do those get switch power straight from the battery? Edit: I feel stupid, 1,2,7-19 so it wouldn't matter on the Ne- correct? The coils should get power from the main relay. Just leave that as stock. Ken |
Originally Posted by 88_N/A_GXL
(Post 11245061)
Now, I've got CAS, WB, fuel, and spark wired up to the BOB, assuming 12v comes straight from the battery. I've also got 12v switched to the ECU in as well.
What else am I going to need? I know BAC but which does that go to? MS3 PWM idle says it does 0.8a and the MS3x does 3a, or would it matter? I still have to do CLT and IAT, but I feel like I'm forgetting something. What about all the solenoid rack? Also, you should not wire +12v straight from the battery to the MS. Only switched 12v should be connected. Ken |
Originally Posted by 88_N/A_GXL
(Post 11245306)
Just went with BAC on the MS3x. Just finished CLT and IAT. Now, I'm still undecided on how to do the fuel pump. Is the MS fuel pump control just a ground or does it send power? If it was a ground I was thinking of just jumping the test connector and running 3A from the stock ECU to the MS fuel pump control.
I really don't wanna have to rip out my amps and sub box and carpet again just to rewire the pump and I don't want to just have a single hanging wire on the connector running back into the interior. Ken |
Originally Posted by muythaibxr
(Post 11245501)
Use ms3x idle for the bac. The only useful thing as far as making the engine run right in the solenoid rack is the fuel preassure regulator solenoid.
Also, you should not wire +12v straight from the battery to the MS. Only switched 12v should be connected. Ken |
Originally Posted by muythaibxr
(Post 11245502)
The fuel pump output is meant to ground a relay. All the outputs are meant to be grounds.
Ken |
Okay, so I'm now into attempting to get it started for the first time. My IAT is reading like 270F and I cant get a TPS reading. I know there are two spots for IAT, which should I use? I'm assuming the dynamic chamber one? Also, how about TPS? I've got MS-22 running to 2G but get nothing.
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So, I forgot the 5v ref for the TPS, bout to solder that in right now. But, still wondering about my IAT reading.
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5v ref is hooked into 2B and I still get 1023 for TPS reading no matter if it's open or closed.
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So, I think I've figured it out... 1A/2A/3A on the stock wiring does not equal A1/B1/C1 on the DIYBOB apparently. But, that doesn't explain why I got power to the MegaSquirt... unless the main relay supplies power to the ECU when the key is on aswell?
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The main relay supplies power to the ECU in On and in crank.
Ken |
Okay, I've got everything rewired in the proper spots now, I've got TS all set up and pulled the EGI INJ fuse so I don't get fuel or spark but I can't get a sync out of it. I've got CKP- to 1Q, CKP+ to 1T, MS3 Pin 15 to 1P, and MS3x Cam Input to 1N. Does that sound right?
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Figured it out. Had to turn down the pots on the mainboard and ms3x. Just got back from a drive and attempting to tune. I just can't get it to stay alive coming to a stop unless I tap the throttle when I throw it in neutral. Other than that I've got it pretty well dialed in, but haven't been able to reach the whole VE map.
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AS far as keeping it alive when you come to a stop, you might need more air from the BAC, more timing, or more fuel or some combination of those things.
Ken |
I attempted to get an .msl and tried to get it to happen but I didn't really have to come to a stop this last time I took it out. But, if I stab the throttle while sitting it happens too. I can't upload it though because it's too large of a log unfortunately and I don't know how to trim it down.
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Looking over my log last night, I'm thinking I may have too much fuel and/or timing down around idle.
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2 Attachment(s)
I've made a few changes and it does help a little bit but it does still happen. I've got two logs beforehand trying to get it to happen then the third log it happens and I got it also when I parked it and revved it up a bit.
I don't know what all is needed so I've got the three logs and my tune in here. |
Try adding some fuel at the bottom left of the table. Also make sure if you have overrun fuel cut enabled, it brings fuel back in at around 1800 rpm or higher.
Ken |
I think I've got it figured out now. I'm pretty sure it was the overrun fuel cut delay setting, I upped it to 3 seconds just to check if that was it and I dont have a problem up to like 6k rpm sitting in the driveway. So I'm figuring the 1 second delay plus the dashpot was causing it to cut fuel before it got back down to idle and having my activation rpm at 1500 per Aaron's guide and an 1100 rpm return, as his MS2 guide doesn't have that setting, with a 750 rpm idle just weren't working well.
I think I'm going to bring up the return point to about 1450, I don't know how well having them both the same would work, and then turn the delay back down to about 1.5-2 seconds. I figure some experimentation should get it ironed out fairly well. |
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