ms2 and rpms working...!?!
 

you may recall my thread before about a month ago... https://www.rx7club.com/megasquirt-forum-153/new-v3-build-still-no-rpm-reused-old-processor-696142/

i had no rpm on ms1 or ms2 extra. well i got some help and it should work now. im going to put it on the car tomorrow and i was hoping someone might over look my msq and see whats up. its using the 24 tooth wheel, 550/1680cc, and hopefully like 15psi, stock temps, stock coils.... pretty much the ms2 w/2nd vr built in proto. im really just trying to check the rpms for working. but if all goes well i may try to start. still gotta switch my fan and weld flange for bov.

thanks for looking

I'll have some time to check this later today or tomorrow.

cool cool... or anyone else running ms2extra 1xxx see anything...?

well i hooked up to the car today. i got rpms. about 190 on crank. i got fuel pressure and action at my injectors(audible), i got spark, and all sensors seem to register correctly. about 4*C temp. i could not get it to catch though. i was hoping for a bark or some indication of ignition. i smelled the plugs after a few tries, and i think i have really stale gas. i parked the car in february to build up with about a half gallon in the tank. so i will be getting some fresh premium gas tomorrow morning and try my best to dilute what is in the tank now. ill get like 10 gallons. i think the stale gas is why it wont catch. plus my timing is off too. ill try to set timing as well tomorrow.

still like to see if anyone can look over my msq. i know its a weekend and nobody is online during weekends... but im hoping.

yay! first step forward since june.

There should be a drain plug at the bottom of your gas tank should you be interested in draining it out instead of diluting it with fresh.

good info. i didnt know that. thanks

im not 100% about the bad fuel, but im not sure of my pulsewidths for cranking either. i have a 1.0 opening time and a canking scale of like 100%-250% from 80- -10*C. not sure but it was way higher before. i thought the scale was way off. so i adjusted a few things.

I took a quick look at your MSQ, you might want to zero out your priming pulse for the time being. It's possible to cause flooding while trying to get the car started.

I dont have the ms2 but i'm looking through your settings and I see your main cas wheel is set to cam, should it be set to crank? I'm curious also?

quasar-from what ive read on ms2extra with 24 tooth cas, this is set to cam. check H4Inf. he has adobe how-to on ms2 with no missing tooth setup. thats what i followed. and this is the first time my rpm has worked since june... so im reluctant to change it. hahaha.

gross-i suppose you mean zero out all through the temp range since i really dont know what my pulse should be? should i do that on my cranking too? ive still not had the car start and run at normal op. so i dont know what my pulsewidths should be at normal running. it was like 4*C yesterday and today its like 10*C. so im working over a wide range.

Ok, i'm learning this stuff myself now. I think i'm going to soon get a ms2 chip.

The triggers are set to cam because the CAS is geared to spin 1/2 speed of the crank, much like a cam angle sensor on a recip engine.

Priming pulse is not needed to start your car for the first time. Zeroing out the pulse through out the temperature range will effectively turn it off. All it does is run the pump when you turn the key on and shoot fuel into the port for the duration specified on the table. You can easily flood the car if you turn the key on and off a few times without cranking.

it started!!! did it stay running..? no. but it ran for about 10 seconds. i tried to do a datalog... because i think i got the cranking pulsewidths and afterstart good enough to run, but i think when it cycles out of WUE and goes to VE table it dies. i was trying to get it right with out adjusting the throttle plates. i need to learn more about how the datalog works so i can post it. still need to check my timing. havent found the timing light yet. YYEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!

once i got the cranking pulses close enough to catch, i turned off ASE, and tuned WUE. i managed to make it run about 6 times tonight while playing with WUE and the taper, and scaling the VE table up a bit. i think that when WUE was ending after 150 or so revs, VE table was a little lean. but its starting up in the 80-90kpa range then starting to go down a bit, but doesnt run long enough.

Congrats! Just a little more tweaking and you'll be idling in no time.

i dont know what to do with my 2 datalogs

i think my biggest problem was the accell enrichments. so im gonna turn it off for now. i noticed as i played with the throttle while trying to idle... the pw was jumping too. i don think it should do that. figured i could see if i need more or less fuel by giving some throttle to smooth out. obviously if it smooths out with some throttle, im too rich. so when i gave it throttle, i was just richening it up more. der. was also thinking of taking some fuel out around where it was trying to idle, to get it to go down some. i think the lowest i saw on my datalog was like 66kpa. but i didnt get a datalog of any of my "good" runs if you can call it that. does this sound right?

new msq
 

my latest revision

Judging from your injector characteristics, you're running either high impedance injectors, or a resistor pack on low impedance injectors?

to tell you the truth, i cant remember. its been 5 months since ive messed with the car. they are stock primary inj. from 88 gxl s4 na. red tops i believe. and my secondaries are 1680 bosch. pretty sure they were both high imp.

is this the table that is in the basic cranking window? this table has been confusing me becasue there is an option for "standard prime" or "priming table" but the table lower in the window is called "priming/cranking PW" do these in fact fire one time per turn of the key and one time only, or do they effect the PW at cranking?? for example, if my coolant is at 60 deg C and i have the bin set to 5.0ms in this mystery table. lets say i have to crank for about 3 seconds before it gets out of cranking mode (running). is it using this PW of 5.0 for all the cranking injection events? is it taking this value and adding it to the required fuel value to give me a net of about 15.1?

S4 NA injectors are 460cc, your req fuel is a bit higher than mine on 550 primaries as well as your bins around idle on the VE map. Easiest way to check the type, put a multimeter across the injector plugs and see what resistance you're getting. If you're around 12 ohms, then your current injector characteristics are fine. If it's around 2 ohms, then you will need to set up the PWM.

It appears that your injector opening time is set to 2.0ms, change that down to 1.0ms, stock injectors don't take that long to open.

I'm also getting some warnings when opening your MSQ, I don't know exactly what they are though, maybe Ken can take a look and see what he thinks.

I attached my current MSQ as an example. 550 primaries, 720 secondaries, both low impedance driven by PWM on the MS. Car cold starts perfectly and drives great, far from perfect tune, but might possibly be beneficial to those who are wondering about specifics for setting up.

im gonna look at yours tonight. i got my spark table from bdc and generated a fuel map. i got my opening time set at 2.0 i think. when i started playing with warmup and ase. i was putting large numbers in there, so i just did a double onthe pw.

i got the car started today many times. it almost ran for a minute once. got the timing set good today. its right on now. so i went to my spark table for now. it was running good, and then it would die off. i know i have a pressure leak. probably in my hoses for boost controller. it was averaging around 60kpa when it would get running. the rpms were a bit bumpy, and it would stumble sometimes. but it ran honest to goodness "running". i started to play with the ve table, taking out some fuel. that seemed to keep the rpms steady, and after several seconds... like 15 or so, the map would go up. its like i couldnt keep the kpa down. so it would go up to the 70-80kpa range and stumble(untuned fuel area). i tried to keep rpms down by taking out fuel from the table but then it would die sooner. im posting a datalog of something from tonight. i dont know if it looks like i have vr noise or what. actually i cant load the datalog its too big.

i looked at your fuel table and maybe i need to add some rpm bins and try to tune richer where i can get it to idle and lesser all around. i will get my wideband hooked up tomorrow. maybe this will help. couldnt find a t1 or t5 to do the cap on the vr circuit for noise. and hopefully i can get my leak fixed too.

been trying to figure out how to cut down my datalog to fit on here. i might use one to show you with a less tuned shorter run.

also prolly help if i weld the exhaust up... open downpipe.

With an open downpipe, if your wideband is mounted near the open end, oxygen can be drawn in across the sensor from the exhaust pulses, giving a leaner signal than what is actually present. Not a major change in pw or anything, but it might hinder some progress.
Also, are you sure you want to turn off ASE?...it sounded like you were getting it dialed in when you said it would run for an entire minute. A bit richer in WUE would be the next step I would think.

Generally, you want to turn off ASE and WUE, and use req_fuel to get the engine running until it's warm, then dial back req_fuel to where it was, and adjust the VE table to keep the engine running.

Then next time you start cold, you can start adjusting WUE and ASE without adjusting the VE table.

The fuel table that gets generated is way too lean for a rotary, so that's probably what's causing your problem.

Ken

i think i bumped up the generated table by 1.5 for safe conditions. i turned off ase and left wue on. my wideband is 6-8 inched behind the turbo and not wired to ms yet. i have a ngk wideband and not sure how to set up the parameters for it yet. its not in the dropdown selection.

i should be adding to the req_fuel to get it to run till warm right? then it will cut die out as it gets warmer i suppose. so when it warms up some and dies. take some req_fuel back each time till its warm. then tune in idle when warm? and then go back when cold and play with ase and wue?

i dont have intercooler or turbo plumbed up yet. just running open tb adapter for now. still need to get bov adapter welded up. this will probably help get my kpa down to 40-50 instead of 60-70

I generally use the VE table only, but req_fuel has the effect of scaling the whole VE table, which is why I recommend it for people newer to tuning.

normally I'd richen things up in the VE, and adjust the VE table as the engine gets warm.

Once it's at operating temp, I usually consider that locked down, then on the next cold start, I start tuning ASE and WUE.

It's easier to get the engine to stay running by just bumping the req_fuel until it stays running though.

Ken

today i managed to make it run about 5 minutes once or twice. then it would creep towards leaner and leaner and it was getting in the 15:1 area. oh i did get the wideband hooked up today too. it appears to work well. and i have high imp injectors for sure. and i would cut it off and add some fuel, first by uping the req_fuel. then i was at about 11.0 req_fuel. it kept getting harder to start, with the more fuel i add. so i took it all back out and tried a couple ways, +req_fuel and +vetable. apparently i have 460cc injectors and am using a req_fuel of 9.3 to start.

can i change required fuel and/or the ve table while running? i thought you could in the tuning menu>ve tuning. but i cant change there. i could make adjustments in dataloge viewer.

how can i keep this idle stable? it gets idling best around 60kpa and 800rpm. it bounces a little but is about a 13.5:1 afr, rpms drop a little and it creeps towards 70kpa and then up to 80kpa and it acts like it will get a grip and maintain with a good 13.5:1afr and then it speeds up and comes back down in the kpa. it will do this like 3 or 4 times and then when kpa goes up to 80, it keeps going to atmosphere as it dies. so i raise the req_fuel up and up till it wont do it again, by then it wont start. so i took out of the cranking and wue. over and over. ill see if i can post a datalog now that i have afr.

i thought the idea behind rotaries was, rich at idle and lean out around the idle for torque as rpms rise. so i lowered all around 60kpa/800rpm and kept it richer there. then it would bounce around again. grrr. it sucks that the warmest day i have had is 40*F

The rotaries I've tuned all like to idle around just over 12:1... around 12.2-12.5:1 seems to work best for me.

They also like to idle at 5 ATDC timing.

I generally box in the idle areas by making the 4 bins surrounding idle the same for fuel.

You can adjust VE or req_fuel while running, but there'll be a slight stutter each time you burn. To adjust VE using the dialog you chose, arrow over to the vertex you want to change, then hold shift, and press the up arrow or down arrow to adjust that vertex up or down.

Ken

thats what i was starting to think. tomorrow will be like 50*F so it should be easier on me. i looked at some datalogs and saw the one run i thought would be best. it had really rich afrs but as long as it gets me to running temp, fine. coincidently the ve table i was using for this particularly well running... run, was where all surrounding bins were very close to target idle. so i will fine tune this one. i think i had my req_fuel pretty high in this one.

im posting a screenshot of datalog. only way i can fit it in. on the screen shot you will see my spark table. i can understand the -5* at idle, but other than that, does the spark table look acceptable to run for now?

also... i think a big problem im having with the jumpy rpm is noise. i have two caps, one is a 103 or 104k yellow ones from the build, and the other is a polyester film, square green one. both are labeled as .1uF. i read some threads on noise and all i see is the T1 and T5 points to connect. i dont have those. i have a vr circuit built in the proto area, should i connect between vr2in and vr2out on my proto area? i would assume this is the G+ and G-.

You would install a .1uf cap across VR2IN and ground.

G+ is what connects to VR2IN. G- is the other wire from the CAS.

i realized that was a retard moment after the edit time went away. its just a common ms ground. i know. that should clear up what you see in my datalog you think?

ok i got this thing to run today for about five minutes. it was rich and wanted to idle higher. like 1600 rpms. with the help of the throttle. i just wanted to get this thing warmed up. i was seeing advance of like 16*. for some stupid reason i thought that was too much. i have my idle area set at like -5. i thought it would run good here. i think i was wrong. i cut off the car and reset to fixed advance of -5. and started up again. it ran like crap and i couldnt keep it going. so i went back to my original settings after i realized what i did. then it wouldnt start. i tried for 2 hours. then pulled plugs. i think i rich fouled them. im posting pics of plugs. im going to store now to buy new plugs. help me out, do they look fouled? and is 16* advance with 1400-1600rpms going to fould it. or was it when i went to fixed?

Looks like the center electrode in the first pic is pretty well coated with black soot. (fuel fouled). If they are fairly new, I have had good luck cleaning them with brake cleaner and an old toothbrush, followed by a blast of compressed air, at least temporarily until you get a more stable tune. It's cheaper than buying a new set every time she floods. I doubt that the 16* advance caused it, but fixed retarded timing can contribute to fouling because the burn is occuring closer to the tail end of the rotor's "bathtub", with the leading plugs getting hit with more unburned fuel than trailing at that point.

ok they were fouled. got somenew ones and it started right up. all my setting seem to be working fine. i got it up to operating temp, and realized my thermostat was in backwards. der. so i gotta fix that tomorrow.

i couldnt get my rpms down tho. it stayed above 1700. i adjusted my tb down all the way and even put my hand over the end. still couldnt get rpms down. i was getting around 45kpa average while idling. i tried lowering ve table and raising it. what should i do. i also tried messing with the spark advance. still nada. my afrs were like 10.0:1

You should be able to get your rpms down regardless of where you put your timing. What are you using for idle control, BAC???....are you using a dashpot? tight throttle cables? are you using an air supply solenoid for F-idle?

im using no idle control device. it idles at like 800 when it ran like crap last couple days. today its running great, but too fast idle. only difference is the cap i put on the 2nd vr

Well with an afr of 10:1 at idle you could probably rule out a vacuum leak causing the high idle speed. Have you looked at the vr signal after you installed the cap? just curious. I may do that to mine as well.

no i forgot to do a datalog i think.. but im gonna check now. i thought it might have been where my tb was powdercoated not letting the throttle plates close all the way. but i have a map of 45kpa when idling at 1700. so i dont think its a vaccum leak, i checked all the hoses 2 days ago, cuz i couldnt get the kpa down below 60. im happy with 40-45 like i have, but its just too fast.

as far as the cap goes... i noticed a tremendous difference in the smoothness of the idle. i deff. had a spiking issue before. now its good. but i like i said i dont have a datalog.

With 45 kpa @1700, it would seem to me that the throttle is closing ok, unless the throttle shaft is slightly twisted (from being dropped or forced closed at one time or another). If it were twisted, you would have one blade open further than the other. You could verify this with a feeler gauge at closed throttle, or if you have the tb removed, shine a light through it. Have you verified that the throttle lever is actually coming in contact with the stop screw? If the throttle is closing ok, there is something else keeping the idle high, perhaps I can come up with another idea tomorrow.

dont know. i have moved the throttle stop all the way out. both sets of plates are maxed out, and the stop doesnt make contact. the whole assy just doesnt go any further. i tried to close them more individually and both are as far as they go, so its not just one of them. the light shines through a little. if its the tb, its def cuz there is powdercoat on the inside barrels. im going to pull it off tomorrow morning and take the sanding wheel to it a little and clear away some of this powdercoating. i never did, because i didnt think it would hurt. it is a turbo project, so it doesnt have to be mirror shined.

does your assy make contact with the stopper fully out?

in reality i should have a problem keeping the idle up with such a rich mixture, no iac, and no throttle stop, shouldnt i?

i just figured, the kpa is like 40-45, and that seems pretty common in the community. maybe i can get 30kpa , if i can do a good job on the tb closing. the tighter the better right?

my throttle body is fine. it seals up fine. barely any pass by on the plates... light shining through test. and my thermistat was in the right way too. not sure why i was overheating. im doing a boiling water test onthat now too. im gonna try taking out more fuel.

Are you using a t2 tb or NA?....the NA one has an air bypass screw on the top to set idle speed, whereas the t2 bypass port is sealed (probably a redundant question). Mine is against the stop screw. I prefer to not have the blades make contact with the bores when closed, just a few thousandths is all that is needed. I am racking my brain trying to figure out your high idle. Usually when you have all the basics covered and there is still a high idle, often there is a vacuum leak somewhere. Your AFRs look good, even slightly on the rich side @ idle. I wonder if the richness might be masking a hidden vac leak. If the car were in front of me I would grab my propane kit and go around all of the gasket and seal areas at idle to look for changes in roughness or speed.

Vacuum leak is the only thing I've seen cause a high idle like that.

A misadjusted throttle body can do it too, but I doubt that's the problem based on the previous posts.

Ken

i checked all my hoses for leaks and i dont think there is any. i do have all emissions related things blocked off. maybe a plate is leaking. i think the acv leaks most times.

that propane thing is a good idea. i may try that. i guess i can use a torch.

my tb is a turboII. they make contact with the bore.

i had an airlock on my coolant and it wouldnt flow back to the engine. i burnt up my waterpump. new one tomorrow.

the first attachment is normal after warmup i think. playing with the ve table. the second is some retarded mess i dont know much about. by then i had messed with several things. that cap took care of some ugly rpms

Judging from this, you've still got some serious noise going on there. This is almost always ground or +12v in related.

Since you're using ms2/extra, the noise filter might help too.

Ken

you think. it smoothed out with the cap alot. ill look into that filter though. should the rpms look more like a smooth line, with no peaks and valleys at all? i took good care of all my ground points when i rebuilt the car. good shiney metal grounds. as far as i know i hit them all. ill look back through aarons thread on this.

Like I said, it could be +12v input as well. You shouldn't get any random spikes in rpm; it should be close to perfectly smooth.

You can try adjusting the Hysteresis pot up until you can't get RPM on crank anymore, then adjusting it back down 1 turn or so. That will get rid small noise (in the mV range). The noise filter can get rid of larger spikes if configured correctly.

Last, I don't know if anyone's said it yet, but make sure your CAS wiring is shielded properly and make sure the shield is only grounded in one place.

Ken

i found my vacuum leak. center bolt hole on lim to block. na block and t2 manifold. i never tapped the hole. so i have no bolt. i guess i thought i could get away with it. now i got to do that. i posted that in the 2nd gen section, if anyone has any suggestions or alternatives. when i get this fixed, my kpa should be way down lower with a lower rpm.

thanks for the propane idea. thats how i found my leak. genius

ill fix this and then address this noise issue

Excellent work. Glad you found your leak. Keep us posted.