The cost of an MS3x
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Alright, I'm compiling a list of stuff needed for basic operation of the MS3x.
I got 5 injector connectors thinking using the extra one for my factory water temp sensor. I use two female spades on my IAT sensor, leaving only the factory CAS connector and a IACV connector to be sourced. DIYautotune order w/pre-built MS3x for $1096 (attached) Volvo IACV Ebay for $31 shipped Boost control solenoid $47 optional. Also the TunerStudio software is $50 Shipping from DIY to me in FL was $20 So in total? $1244 |
Description-----------------------------------Price
MS3 Wiring Harness -----------------------$85.00 MS3X Wiring Harness----------------------$89.00 MS3X w/ PCB v3.57 & Case assembled-$643.00 Innovative LC-1 Wideband w/ Sensor--$200.00 LS2 coil packs------------------------------- $65.00 LS2 coil pigtails------------------------------$36.00 GM IAT sensor & pigtail--------------------$20.00 GM CLT sensor & pigtail--------------------$16.00 Bosch EV1 injector pigtail (BAC Valve)---$8.00 NipponDenso S5 injector pigtails---------$30.00 -------------------------------------------------$1,192.00 |
You will need 4 coils packs $268.
Wideband I left separate considering some people may have one already. You do not need the GM sensors, and I included a pigtail for just the Water temp. And fuel injector connectors will vary, I choose the ones I did just for a price representation. |
Originally Posted by First gen man
(Post 11263151)
You will need 4 coils packs $268.
Wideband I left separate considering some people may have one already. You do not need the GM sensors, and I included a pigtail for just the Water temp. And fuel injector connectors will vary, I choose the ones I did just for a price representation. |
Ya you know I read about using the resistors on the temp sensors, but I talked to the guy at DIY about it and he said you won't need to do any of that, it's silly to buy sensors.
A few people already have widebands. Where'd you get coils for $16 ea? |
Out of curiosity, what made you decide to switch from the LT10 to a MS3?
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Originally Posted by g14novak
(Post 11267038)
Out of curiosity, what made you decide to switch from the LT10 to a MS3?
No closed loop, poor datalogging, crappy distributor based ignition model, poor interpolation on the the fuel table, stone age software, locked I/O configuration, etc. etc. Microtechs are not modern ECUs by any means. |
Thanks Aaron. To reiterate,
You'll get worse MPG Requires expensive dongles and serial to USB adapters to get a microtech datalogging There's no customizable fuel and ignition tables The read out for MT is green and randomly flickers numbers, the megasquirt has multiple gauge display set ups, all fully customizable. MT has no customizable input and output configuration causing issues with say, running two different rpm switch outputs. |
question: why did you need to get two wiring harnesses?
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disregard the question. i got the answer from the diyautotune site. thanks anyway.
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Yessir, one for the Ms3 board, one for the Ms3X board.
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Buy an additional length of twin shielded for the CAS second VR circuit as well.
The MS3 harness comes with the shielded wire, but I don't think tthat the MS3X harness does. Wire - 2 Core Shielded 20 Gauge - 10' DIYAutoTune.com Arran |
Correct...The current MS3X harness doesn't have a shielded VR/Hall input.
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Ms3x harness is not shielded, but if you get the adapter (roughly $5) you can run 2 Ms3 Harnesses. I believe this is how i have one setup, dont quote me on it b/c im not outside stairing at it.
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So basically you could pop the pins out of the connector for the MS3x and re pin it with the shielded length of wire? Diyautotune probably will throw in a couple of extra pins if you ask.
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For a couple hundred more bucks you could also go with a link g4rx or a ps1000 and not have to deal with any of the hassles of configuring a ms3.
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Configuring an MS3x really isn't a hassle. Set two jumpers, and then add one wire to the harness.
Actually, buying new pins isn't necessary. Just cut the existing cam inputs very short and solder to them, then solder the shield to one of the ground wires. Insulate with heat shrink and reassemble the DB37. Done and done. :) I have my hands on a prototype MS3 from DIYAutoTune right now that requires no mods whatsoever to run the 13B. More on that to come later in my next Cosmo video. |
I need to get into the link, motech, and haltech software to really see what it's capable of. But really the MS has some really advanced features.
I figured repining would be better? One less solder joint, I'm also trying to pin in all of my connectors, but I don't know if I can find the TPS connector or the CAS connector pins. |
Originally Posted by rxspeed7
(Post 11324048)
For a couple hundred more bucks you could also go with a link g4rx or a ps1000 and not have to deal with any of the hassles of configuring a ms3.
Ken |
Originally Posted by First gen man
(Post 11324789)
I need to get into the link, motech, and haltech software to really see what it's capable of. But really the MS has some really advanced features.
I figured repining would be better? One less solder joint, I'm also trying to pin in all of my connectors, but I don't know if I can find the TPS connector or the CAS connector pins. The CAS connector is made by Sumitomo. You may be able to find parts at EFI Connection, LLC - Welcome to www.eficonnection.com . Or, you can just swap on more modern connectors. That's what I tend to do. Makes replacement swapping slightly less convenient. If you want to repin, go nuts. :) I've done it both ways but find it a lot easier to deal with soldering than those tiny pins (plus I don't have the crimper, so I end up soldering them anyway). |
Ya great point with going with newer connectors. You happen to know the pin size/crimper size on the MS3x?
Merry xmas btw. |
Same as any standard computer cables, so if you pick up a DB9 kit at Radio Shack or any electronics store, it will have the correct pins. Not sure on the crimper side as I don't have one with me at the moment.
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Alright I think the main connectors for the MS3x are of the solder cup variety. So de solder and solder the shielded wire in place for the CAS. And is shielding the CAS connector necessary? Or will any ol connector work?
What are these other modifications you speak of to allow to MS3x to work on an FC? |
Any reason not to use the original Mazda CAS 4 wire lead from the OE harness?
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Ya, suppose that would work. I like brand new stuff though lol.
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Originally Posted by First gen man
(Post 11332640)
Alright I think the main connectors for the MS3x are of the solder cup variety. So de solder and solder the shielded wire in place for the CAS. And is shielding the CAS connector necessary? Or will any ol connector work?
You can remove the factory connector and then just push in your own. The DIY harnesses now come with two shielded inputs, one for cam and one for crank, so you shouldn't need to modify if you have one of the newer harnesses. The connector isn't shielded. It's not typically a noise source. Your CAS connector needs to be high quality and weather tight. Only ground the shield at the ECU side. What are these other modifications you speak of to allow to MS3x to work on an FC? How to MegaSquirt your FC RX-7
Originally Posted by Twilightoptics
(Post 11333095)
Any reason not to use the original Mazda CAS 4 wire lead from the OE harness?
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I found this pic on some guys Ms3x install. Looks like a solder cup to me. But I'm not sure if the complete harnesses they sell are different. He may have ordered a "do it yourself" style harness.
Also I'm glad to hear that they now come with shielded wires for both the inputs. I read somewhere you have to hook both up to the crank angle? |
That looks to be someone's own harness, not one of the manufactured harnesses.
Both CAS wheels are used. It's explained here: How To Megasquirt Your 2nd Gen RX-7 Not updated for MS3 yet. MS3X requires no board mods unlike the older MS since the MS3X expander board comes with a 2nd VR input. The new MS3-Pro from DIY Auto Tune comes with newly designed adaptive VR inputs (two of them), shielded wire for both the crank and cam inputs (no harness modification necessary) and weather tight Delphi main connectors. |
So two lengths of two core shielded wire is required?
I think the pro is a bit overpriced for that plastic case and those connectors/harnesses.. You can build all the options into an old case for much cheaper. The cost of that plastic case is 173 more than the regular case, and the harnesses cost 170 more... |
Originally Posted by First gen man
(Post 11336831)
So two lengths of two core shielded wire is required?
I think the pro is a bit overpriced for that plastic case and those connectors/harnesses.. You can build all the options into an old case for much cheaper. The cost of that plastic case is 173 more than the regular case, and the harnesses cost 170 more... It comes with the Real Time Clock ($80) and knock input ($65) options. So the cost starts to even out over the base MS3X unit with the same options. Still more expensive, but those Delphi connectors aren't cheap. Plus, the MS3-Pro has much better VR conditioners. DIYAutoTune redesigned the circuit to use Maxcell chips (I forget which ones...I'd have to open up my unit which isn't with me at the moment) that are worlds better than the old comparator/LM1815 based circuits. A big deal for the CAS, which can be a bit challenging to get a stable signal from. And no more twiddling pots. Also a manual. Don't underestimate the niceness of having a manual which has all the features in one place. |
I factored in the clock and the knock. It does cost nearly 400 more for no other options other than the harnesses, the case, the manual and the chip you mentioned. I even matched the price for the usb cable it comes with lol. DIY neglected to mention on their site, or in the emails I had with them that that chip has been upgraded. Thanks for mentioning that.
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This whole vr thing has me reconsidering ms3x in favor of ms2..... pro is just that much more out of my price range anyway.
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Ok so I'm sitting here staring at the DIYAutoTune website with my credit card in my hand and I can't figure out what all I need to buy. I can build engines, turbos, transmissions but when it come to ECUs I'm like a 10yr old in a nuclear power plant, what all do I need to buy to run the MS3/MSX assembled unit in a 1989 TII swapped vert? I know you guys covered what is needed in the beginning of the thread but are those not individual custom setups?I considered the MSPro but that seems like quite the chunk of change.
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The first list is still pretty valid S5 vert. The only things that are optional are the boost control solenoid, the tunerstudio upgrade (for VEanalyzer auto tuner) and the air temp sensor/pigtail. The rest you pretty much need unless you have. You do also pretty much need a wideband.
Also, on the shielded wire convo, do you need all 4 wires shielded? If so, why don't you use a 4 wire core? I'm sure I could split it down to a two wire for a short length to tap into both of the harnesses. Would this type of wire work? DIY has 22 gauge though... (it says 20 ga. in there Iexplorer title) 10 Feet 24 AWG Shielded Silver Plated of Wire 4 Twisted Kynar | eBay |
Painless Performance Weatherpack Connectors 70404 - SummitRacing.com
Painless Performance Weatherpack Connectors 70403 - SummitRacing.com Add these two guys to the list for tps connector(3 wire)and CAS connector(4) ^ Also I plan on crimping everything, all of the orignal connectors I posted and these will require a 30 something dollar crimping tool. Else you can buy all of these connectors with a bit of wire hanging out of them for you to solder to, for a dollar or so extra per connector. |
Originally Posted by First gen man
(Post 11349748)
The first list is still pretty valid S5 vert. The only things that are optional are the boost control solenoid, the tunerstudio upgrade (for VEanalyzer auto tuner) and the air temp sensor/pigtail. The rest you pretty much need unless you have. You do also pretty much need a wideband.
Also, on the shielded wire convo, do you need all 4 wires shielded? If so, why don't you use a 4 wire core? I'm sure I could split it down to a two wire for a short length to tap into both of the harnesses. Would this type of wire work? DIY has 22 gauge though... (it says 20 ga. in there Iexplorer title) 10 Feet 24 AWG Shielded Silver Plated of Wire 4 Twisted Kynar | eBay Can I not run my factory coil packs? And I have an AEM wideband. What you have priced up is more expensive than the MSPro. |
Originally Posted by just startn
(Post 11317951)
Ms3x harness is not shielded,
MegaSquirt Wiring Harnesses, Wiring Connectors, CLT and IAT Sensors Megasquirt Kits / Assembled Engine Management Systems, Wideband o2 Sensor Systems and tuning products - DIYAutoTune.com The MS3-Pro harness *does* use shielded wire for CMP, as well as CKP and TPS inputs (you RX7 guys probably usually refer to CMP and CKP and G and NE).
Originally Posted by just startn
(Post 11317951)
but if you get the adapter (roughly $5) you can run 2 Ms3 Harnesses. I believe this is how i have one setup, dont quote me on it b/c im not outside stairing at it.
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Maybe I'm missing something. It looks like you offer the ms3 pro with harness for $1200
While the ms3 w/ ms3x is $645 plus about $150 for the harnesses for $800 How are they close in price? |
Originally Posted by Twilightoptics
(Post 11351097)
Maybe I'm missing something. It looks like you offer the ms3 pro with harness for $1200
While the ms3 w/ ms3x is $645 plus about $150 for the harnesses for $800 How are they close in price? |
Originally Posted by Twilightoptics
(Post 11351097)
Maybe I'm missing something. It looks like you offer the ms3 pro with harness for $1200
While the ms3 w/ ms3x is $645 plus about $150 for the harnesses for $800 How are they close in price? Yes, you can save some $$$ on MS3X if that's best for your project. I think we have a great solution for pretty much any price point. |
I see now. Makes a little more sense. The knock module woukd be nice but the real time clock and sd card bit are not needed for me with a daily driver.
Consistant mods and racing I could see the benefit. |
The pro is a Ms3X with these features built in...
The knock chip $95 installed value The clock chip $75 installed value It also uses a 3 bar external map which costs $65 extra compared to the regular ms3x having a 2 bar built in. (4 bar internal map available for 75 installed with a realtime barometric on board) So you need $1260 (1195+65 for the $65 for the 3 bar map) for just the pro itself. It also comes with... USB cable $7 dollar value on DIY Tunerstudio software $50 I do believe A SD card And the waterproof casing and connectors Compared to $645 for the assembled Ms3X +139 for both harness ='s 748 +95 knock box ='s 843 +75 clock module ='s 918 +50 tunerstudio ='s 968 +7 usb cable ='s 975 +75 4 bar map ='s $1050 total. So if you can lose the plastic case and weatherpack connectors, you can save $210 bucks and upgrade to 4 bar map. Really I think the pro is only good for if you actually desperately need a waterproof ECU. Aaron Cake did mention that some circuit in them has been upgraded? But that adds no special features, or anything like that. |
Originally Posted by Aaron Cake
(Post 11343630)
It depends on which harness and which version you have. If everything is recent, then you probably don't need to add any shielded wire. If you have the new MS3 harness but the old MS3X harness, then you need to add two conductor shielded to the MS3X harness. If you have a very old MS harness, then you need to add shielded two conductor there as well because the stock harness comes with single conductor shielded. Until you get the harnesses, you don't know. :)
Alright, my order showed up the other day, the ms3 harness does have the shielded wire, but the ms3x harness does not. I did order 20 foot of shielded wire just in case, but I'm sure you can depend on having one of two harnesses shielded, and just buy 10 feet. But when I took the connector apart to remove the regular wire, I didn't really see how the wires are held in, they all just slip into a black plastic piece that has the males pins on the other side. It doesn't appear be crimped and popped into the connector either. I suppose I should get a pic. |
Originally Posted by Aaron Cake
(Post 11336206)
weather tight Delphi main connectors.
Ken |
I placed my order for the prebuilt MS3x with knock module, the harnesses+shielded wire, an air temp sensor and all the engine bay connectors I needed for $1010 shipped. This doesnt include a wideband ($200) afternarket coils ($268 you can use stock coils) or boost control solenoid ($65)
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Originally Posted by First gen man
(Post 11388415)
Alright, my order showed up the other day, the ms3 harness does have the shielded wire, but the ms3x harness does not. I did order 20 foot of shielded wire just in case, but I'm sure you can depend on having one of two harnesses shielded, and just buy 10 feet.
But when I took the connector apart to remove the regular wire, I didn't really see how the wires are held in, they all just slip into a black plastic piece that has the males pins on the other side. It doesn't appear be crimped and popped into the connector either. I suppose I should get a pic. Not really sure what you mean about the connector. The harness wires are crimped onto pins which are then inserted into the connector body. Generally I just cut the existing wire short, solder on the shielded and heat shrink to insulate.
Originally Posted by muythaibxr
(Post 11397571)
They're actually AMPSeal connectors, but other than that you're right on! In any case they are much better than the DB37 connectors.
Ken |
That's unfortunate. Sorry I didn't respond sooner!
It's the same connector as the Microsquirt, but 2 instead of 1. |
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