Originally Posted by Shinobi-X
Then the 197whp of the I/H/C I have above is in line with the 201 the guy made in your example. However, 199 at the wheels is rather odd, especially when you consider that he made what the other cars did with bolt-ons. Removing the filter isn't stock though, and along with other factors could account for the additional power. I believe the others in the thread agree though, that 180whp is about right.
I know in other cars I've seen tested, the addition of a straight pipe which removes the usual ribbed pipes to the air box, add as much as 5rwhp. I really dont care what you believe, but the truth is infront of you... 3 different dyno's and they hit basically the same power.... Even going by your dyno, lets say i/h/e adds 10 WHP(which really doesnt) is that enough to pull three cars on him??? |
I beleive you Micah.
I think alot of people have some beef with you now however :). |
Originally Posted by Jager
I beleive you Micah.
I think alot of people have some beef with you now however :). |
Originally Posted by rotorforce
In a sense I have to agree with you, but can you blame a guy for getting hooked on boost:)
Strange enough, my rebuild NA Fc is more fun to drive around town than my stock Fd. My Fc has a lot more get up and go than my Fd from a stop odiously mid range is a different story). I guess that's why I like driving the Fc so much. My Fc feels way more torquey from a stop. To reach the take off acceleration of my Fc, my Fd has to hit 5psi boost (and both my turbos are working properly). |
Originally Posted by MARTIN
That car has nothing additional done to that car... It was suseptable to the same conditions as the others, the si doesn't respond as well to mods as the rsx does... And its not because of the motor, its because of the ecu.....
I really dont care what you believe, but the truth is infront of you... 3 different dyno's and they hit basically the same power.... Even going by your dyno, lets say i/h/e adds 10 WHP(which really doesnt) is that enough to pull three cars on him??? |
Originally Posted by t-von
Strange enough, my rebuild NA Fc is more fun to drive around town than my stock Fd. My Fc has a lot more get up and go than my Fd from a stop odiously mid range is a different story). I guess that's why I like driving the Fc so much. My Fc feels way more torquey from a stop. To reach the take off acceleration of my Fc, my Fd has to hit 5psi boost (and both my turbos are working properly).
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Originally Posted by Shinobi-X
Removing the filter from the air box = less restriction on incoming air, which equals more power. That much I know for fact...so the car is not "stock", and outside of being a factory freak, it certainly is not some magically efficient vehicle that puts out 199whp off the production line.
I didn't say it was enough to pull 3 cars on him, and actually tried to see if you had a legit point concerning the whp of the civic. The truth is not what you made it out to be though, as your claim that it made 199whp completely stock is bogus. Especially when its reinforced by the other members on the same site who are making numbers in the 18xs at their wheels. I could care less how much the 7 beat the civic by, but I do know for fact that you're hyping the civic more than it should be. Put it together for yourself- even if a car doesn't respond well to mods (like its not the first that doesn't), how are you going to have an intake, header, and exhaust on one, making LESS power at the wheels than a bone stock civic? You can't, unless that "stock" civic also has less restrictions regarding air into, or out of the motor (i.e. removal of the air filter). Run cold air from your air box straight into the motor, and you'll gain more power. I've seen it done on both the dyno, and actual numbers at the track, period. Heres the deal.. The car is rated at 197whp from factory, but its really 206. The rsx is rated at 201 but it should be 210... |
Originally Posted by MARTIN
COMPLETELY STOCK...... 199 was done without the air filter..... What more can I say... I have a friend who dynoed 195 with a cold air, and I still pull on him at top end....
Heres the deal.. The car is rated at 197whp from factory, but its really 206. The rsx is rated at 201 but it should be 210... BTW, the car is rated at 197hp at the flywheel, not the wheels. Check the noted asterisk (SAE net, Rev 8/04*) http://automobiles.honda.com/models/...lName=Civic+Si *For 2006, Honda is complying with the new SAE standard for measuring horsepower and torque, SAE net (Rev 8/04). This new method slightly reduces a vehicle's horsepower rating and torque due to more stringent testing procedures. Many manufacturers are still using the older standard of measurement. Horsepower and torque can only be fairly compared if both vehicles were calculated using the same SAE standard. |
Originally Posted by Shinobi-X
COMPLETELY STOCK fg2 with the removal of the filter... <--that sentence doesn't make sense, as the car can't be stock with the removal of restrictions from the intake path
and I made a mistake witih the 197whp I meant BHP..... I was so used to putting whp... |
Originally Posted by MARTIN
How about you read the whole damn thing.... I said he dynoed 193-195 COMPLETELY STOCK!!!!!!! 199 was done with removal of air filter....
COMPLETELY STOCK fg2 with the removal of the filter Ok yea its a removal of restriction, but the stock air boxes are still there.... You still haven't explained why the other stock cars dyno 18x at the wheels... |
If they dyno at 18x it can be a result of many variables... Im just stating what they are capable off and how its been proven... Guaranteed that Ill strap my car on a dyno and I WILL MAKE 190+.... And I will be doing it by next week... But I just don't see what your argument is... Are you saying they don't make 19x stock?? I don't get what your point is..
Believe me when I tell you that the stock intake system is restrictive... The reason why he made more power is in the a/f... If you notice, on the pull that he made the most power, the a/f ratio leaned out a bit, which provided the gains.... IIRC those 2 pulls were done with the removal of the filter... The MAF sensor isn't consistent with its readings when you modify the airflow... |
Originally Posted by MARTIN
If they dyno at 18x it can be a result of many variables...
Im just stating what they are capable off and how its been proven... *For 2006, Honda is complying with the new SAE standard for measuring horsepower and torque, SAE net (Rev 8/04). This new method slightly reduces a vehicle's horsepower rating and torque due to more stringent testing procedures. Many manufacturers are still using the older standard of measurement. Horsepower and torque can only be fairly compared if both vehicles were calculated using the same SAE standard. Here is further proof of how removing small restrictions effect power output by as much as 5rwhp on a car with a driveshaft and rear axle housing to turn. https://www.clublexus.com/forums/att...id=83768&stc=1 Stock airbox tubes https://www.clublexus.com/forums/att...id=83769&stc=1 Aftermarket tube https://www.clublexus.com/forums/att...id=83770&stc=1 http://www.coleplay.net/photos/JOEZ%20Dyno.jpg ^^ These gains are on a 'stock' airbox with its filters. Your buddies 199whp 'stock' civic is no different...it saw gains due to modifications- lightly modded yes, but don't call it stock. Are you saying they don't make 19x stock?? Believe me when I tell you that the stock intake system is restrictive. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm ^^ take a read of that link, and you'll understand just why the stock intake system is percieved as restrictive... The reason why he made more power is in the a/f... If you notice, on the pull that he made the most power, the a/f ratio leaned out a bit, which provided the gains.... |
I think I want an SI now for some reason, I 'll think about it again.........
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Originally Posted by Shinobi-X
I wouldn't suppose the induction of more air into the engine caused him to lean out more than usual...huh? Tell him to put the filters back in, and run the car stock, as it came from the factory, and see what numbers he pulls off.
A baseline can only be used in a per car basis, you cannot do a baseline when there are cars at different elevations, temperatures and dynos... However, in MIAMI, the lowest# I've seen was at 190. BTW, the srt4 puts more power down to the wheels than what its rated at the flywheel. Is it the only car in the world to do so, no... Am I saying that a civic puts down more to the wheel than it does to the flywheel? no. Does it get rediculously close? Yea... And BTW, I've known that Honda conforms to the new sae rating system since I bought the car, which is why rsx also went down in power... But since this system is new, you can't accurately compare it to previous models of cars which went by the old system... Which is why I always convert it when we talk about horsepower.. |
Originally Posted by MARTIN
Look at the chart guy, dont you see that he wen't lean on the final pull which netted most whp? [...] And you may ask as to why different numbers with removed filter, because the maf is INCONSISTENT.... ITs a common problem with the car, which other people had experienced while modifying the intake.
A baseline can only be used in a per car basis, you cannot do a baseline when there are cars at different elevations, temperatures and dynos. Am I saying that a civic puts down more to the wheel than it does to the flywheel? no. Does it get rediculously close? Yea... And BTW, I've known that Honda conforms to the new sae rating system since I bought the car, which is why rsx also went down in power... But since this system is new, you can't accurately compare it to previous models of cars which went by the old system... Which is why I always convert it when we talk about horsepower.. |
A great Battle^^^ props
p.s.----2 cars...net gain...not gross...I mentioned that before, but nobody saw it???? |
Originally Posted by Shinobi-X
So what are you really saying then? Before, you claimed that the Si makes 200whp in stock form. You then posted a 199whp dyno chart as proof, however the guys car had its airbox modified, and the MAF sensor is faulty, hence why he got that number. So given these two variables, how in the world can you claim an Si makes 200whp stock? Meanwhile, most civics without mods see 18x whp, but that is do to a 'host of variables', even though they are all SAE ceritifed?
Its called SAE correction, and when people see similar baseline numbers before the same mods, I'd say it represents a lot more than your 200whp 'stock' claims. Honda claims 197 at the flywheel, you claimed 200/199 at the wheels, stock. Both of your claimed numbers are greater than the SAE certified flywheel number. Actually, the SAE J1349 procedures were voluntary on previous models with the same powertrain. Hondas hp claims got humbled by the test, just as other makes did before it. It is rather accurate in leveling the playing field, and would only show a difference compared to previous HP numbers, because they were inflated due to various testing methods. As stated before, the test are designed to more accurately reflect the amount of hp the car actually produces. If the car hasn't changed its powertrain, it can still be accurately compared. I still don't understand your argument... If I were to get 195whp, does that mean that my dyno is garbage because "other" people dynoed less than me??? No it doesnt... AGain, I have seen atleast 6 dyno's in MIAMI with these cars and they all pull similiar numbers AT DIFFERENT DYNOS... To be honest, your argument is without base. I have personally seen these cars dyno, and they pulled what they pulled... The maf sensor isn't faulty, its just how the car is... Honda's never had a maf in any of its performance models before, and obviously they did a lousy design. So yes, 199 was done with removed airfilter, big whoop.. It still pulled that number and Im happy with the results... |
Are we still at this? Is this going to turn into another technical data bullshit thread like the ls1 over in teh lounge?:)
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wow, i actually read all 8 pages of this stuff so far... kinda funnee :icon_tup:
well here is my .02 cents: from what i read, a lot of talk about hp and how much a civic puts out, but really, we all know that hp is not all that there is to a drag race... especially when going about 70mph. (nice kill btw) 2 key factors in any race are simply: power and frame light frame with a powerful engine = ftw power is not everything, as i'm reading all this crap about hp. i believe that the n/a fc is lighter than the new civics... even if the civic "may" be putting out more power than this particular fc (hypothetical) doesnt really mean automatic win... lighter frame cars with a strong engine can always take on beefier hp cars that are heavy set. ie: your honda crx (b16-20) vs 5.0 mustangs... i've seen crx's pull far too many times on these things its funny... and these little things are pushing anywhere from 160-200+ hp vs the mustang 300+??? laws of physics. call my BS if you want, but we know its all true. lighter frame+power=ftw. |
Originally Posted by rotorforce
Are we still at this? Is this going to turn into another technical data bullshit thread like the ls1 over in teh lounge?:)
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Originally Posted by MARTIN
I said the the makes 190+ in stock form... And it does... Its been proven by a few different people down here...
I still don't understand your argument... So yes, 199 was done with removed airfilter, big whoop.. It still pulled that number and Im happy with the results... |
according to Car & Driver. the Honda Civic Si comes with 195 bhp and 139lb-ft .... hmm...
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Originally Posted by Shinobi-X
You also stated, the they make 200whp stock...which was proven to be bogus.
Most civics don't dyno your quoted numbers, prime example being the actual civic which participated in this race. If you're happy, then thats great- just don't make it seem like the civic rolled off the dealer lot making those numbers when it didn't. :) Either way, the civic makes great power stock, and barely modified. A removal of an intake is all it takes to gain a few horses.... |
Originally Posted by MARTIN
Ok so he made 199 with removed filter... REgardless its a BIG improvement.
Either way, the civic makes great power stock, and barely modified. |
Originally Posted by Shinobi-X
Like most N/A cars, yep...but sadly at the cost of contaminents getting into the motor.
Originally Posted by Shinobi-X
I'll agree to that. :)
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