Injector Issues with E6K and 13B Turbo on FC3S
 

I've been having a hell of a time trying to get my FC going again after the last rebuild.

Current Situation:
-RC Engineering 720cc Primaries
-RC Engineering 1,000cc Secondaries
-Runnig E6K with Hitman's "13BT w/ OEM CAS, Coils and injctors" as a base to get it started.
-Light Blue Injector wire from E6K harness = Front Rotor Primary
-Blue/Red Injector wire from E6K harness = Rear Rotor Primary
-Green/Red Injector wire from E6K harness = Front Rotor Secondary
-Pink Injector wire from E6K harness = Rear Rotor Secondary

When I try to start the engine it puts for a bit then after about 10 seconds it just cranks with no putting. why? because the front rotor is flooded (spark plug wet). This is when it starts getting strange because the rear rotor is not flooded at all, you would think that it would flood about the same time as the front.

So I looked into this problem last time I was in Jersey and came to the conclusion that the E6K ECU was not grounding the rear rotor. So I sent the ECU to Haltech's office in California and they supposedly tested it and sent it back to me saying that they bench tested it and it was "OK". So now I'm confused and go back to trying to find another reason for my fuel deivery problem.

Now this time I've made a very interesting discovery. I found that with the key in the on position and the Haltech ECU connected, the Light Blue wire out of the Haltech ECU is supplying battery voltage to the injector! Correct me if I'm wrong but the Haltech ECU's job is to operate the injectors by grounding the wire not supplying it with Battery voltage. This only occurs on the Light Blue wire ( Front Rotor Primary).

I can't find an explaination for this because I don't know what's going on inside the ECU. I'm pretty sure that their "Bench Test" isn't very comprehensive. I can't help but think that the ECU is at fault.

PLEASE HELP ME!!!!

This is actually "normal".
Who did the rebuild?
It sounds like you're trying to start a fresh rebuild with a base map?
If so, it's ROYAL PAIN IN THE ASS...

Now this time I've made a very interesting discovery. I found that with the key in the on position and the Haltech ECU connected, the Light Blue wire out of the Haltech ECU is supplying battery voltage to the injector! Correct me if I'm wrong but the Haltech ECU's job is to operate the injectors by grounding the wire not supplying it with Battery voltage. This only occurs on the Light Blue wire ( Front Rotor Primary).

I can't find an explaination for this because I don't know what's going on inside the ECU. I'm pretty sure that their "Bench Test" isn't very comprehensive. I can't help but think that the ECU is at fault.[/QUOTE]

It shouldn't matter, as the fuel injector still should not fire.
If you want to verify what it's doing exactly, get an o-scope.

It sounds like your front rotor spark plugs are a little fouled.
Flooding engines will KILL spark plugs.


-Ted

i know with my fresh rebuild, that my car is a whore to start. Try pulling out some fuel with your injector trim settings. i did that to check for injector response. Just dont forget that you pulled fuel out of the injector trim when you go to tune. I only did it to make sure my injectors were responding. I am having a very similar issue. sometimes my plugs dont look as wet from front to rear. My will half ass try to start and then nothing. It would barely run and had no idle until i tested with my injector trim. before i left for x-mas vacation i had it idling at 700 and able to rev a little. I just need to pull out some fuel in the main maps now. just for referance, i pulled as much as possible out of 1 and 2 in the injector trim to get it to do anything. i hope that helps. If any of the experts say differently then i would listen to them because i am still a noob to haltechs.

Osilliscope Images of Injectors
 

Thanks for the advice, Iv'e hooked up an Osilloscope and checked my CAS inputs into the ECM (Hooked O-Scope to the two wires for each trigger) as well as the injector signal at the ECM (Hooked O-Scope to a ground and backprobed the injector wires). The CAS images came out OK and I am confident that the ECM is receiving the correct signal from the CAS. But the Injector images for the Front and Rear Primary Rotors were not as clean or consistent as I had hoped, it was actually pretty hard to capture an image of the injector signal. I've attached some images of each so I can get some input, maybe I'm not using the best setting on the Osilloscope. Any ideas on how I can get a cleaner more consistent image for the

I also tried decreasing the injector Trims for the Primary Injectors down 12.5% (maximum allowable) and still had no response from the engine.

Everything looks good...

The first two pics show clean pull-to-ground square waves, so that's exactly what you want.

"U" shape dips with nice clear edges...

The next two are from the CAS?
Peaks and valleys are consistent.
To verify IGNITION INPUT is good, the Haltech proggie should display RPM's - on cranking, it should be somewhere around 100RPM to 250RPM.
The RPM's should be pretty steady with very little jumping around (nothing stupid like 1,000RPM spikes or 0RPM drops!).

If the IGNITION INPUT is good, verigy spark at the spark plugs...

We just went over all of this in another thread for 88rx7n/a here:
https://www.rx7club.com/haltech-forum-62/fresh-rebuild-e6k-%3D-no-start-702046/

Also, I see to mention of zero'ing out your ignition timing...
Never assume...


-Ted

i would imagine its gonna be ridiculously rich with 720 primaries on a 550 map. have you tried using another base map? Might be able to get ahold of one thats closer to what you need.

Thanks guys, I'm reading this thread and making a list of what to do tomorrow starting with zeroing the Ignition Timing.

Also does anyone know of a different map I should be using as a base map to start this engine with? mmmjesse made a good point about using a fuel map for stock injectors with 720's installed. maybe this is my problem?

Thanks again for this advise!

After reading that thread Ted mentioned, I've found that I need to be using the Primer Map to adjust fuel when cranking not the Fuel Map at the Zero RPM Range. I will also have to Zero the Iginition Timing. Wish me luck tomorrow.

Also Ted, you said that the images I posted were all OK, should I be worried about the inconsistencies on the graphs for the spark plugs? or are those small ups and downs fluctuations of battery voltage?.

The first two pics are graphs of the spark plugs firing?


-Ted

Not sure why Ted is telling people this. The Primer function does not control pulse width during cranking. That falls under the Fuel Map just like regular running operation. The Primer function is just that. It is a single, large pulse width at the injector when the engine first begins cranking. The Primer is responsible for one pulse width only and from there injection pulse width is controlled by the Fuel Map. The excerpt from the E6X manual pertaining to the Primer function is included below.

Correct.

Primer function = stabbing the gas pedal in a carb'd car before a cold start.

Same same.

Um, if I haven't made myself clear...

PRIMER map is what starts the engine.
The main fuel map will not start the engine.
In fact, the main fuel map is ignored until you hit a minimum RPM (set via one of the set-up parameters) which tells the ECU if you are cranking the motor or if the motor is actually running.


-Ted

Primer map is what primes chamber TO fire. What starts it while the engine is cranking is the fuel map. Quite easy to see by watching injection MS during cranking with the coils unplugged. Just try lowering the injection duration while cranking by adjusting the primer map, you can't.

Set PRIMER map to all zeros...
Will the engine every fire?
I doubt it.

Set the 0 RPM range on your main fuel map to all zeros...
Will the engine fire?
I bet I can make it fire.


-Ted

Fire yes, but its firing on the squirt of fuel that was injected from the primer pulse.


Primer = prime. Not injection during cranking.

When the engine fires, the RPM's can easily go over 1,000RPM.
If tuned properly, it'll come down to that to a factory 750RPM if you want.
I don't know why you would want the car to idle down under 500RPM?
My point is that I don't bother with the 0RPM fuel map.
I never have, and I can set it to all zeros and not affect the was the engine cranks or starts.
So I don't know what's the big deal for the 0RPM fuel map in the first place?

On top of everything, the POST START map is usually turned ON...but that's another story...


-Ted

I have another problem on my hands, now I can't get the Haltech ECM to communicate with my Laptop(Windows 98)!

-The two days ago it would connect and communicate fine. After many unsuccessful attempts to try to get it started I closed up shop for the day.
-Yesterday when I hooked up the laptop, it would connect and start to go online and then stop before it reached 100%. I was able to go online once but it was cutting out the entire time.
-So after hours of trying to figure it out, I called Haltech and spoke with Claudio who said to check the power to the Haltech ECM, the cable to the PC, inside the connector to the cable PC for broken solder points and the ground for the ECM. All which checked out OK. So he said to try another Laptop. So I went online to Craigslist and bought another Laptop yesterday this on has Windows 98 Second Edition.

-Today I tried to communicate with the Haltech ECM using the newly acquired Laptop and this time it doesn't even try to communicate to the Haltech ECM. All is says is Reconnect Haltech.

This is the most frustrating thing ever.

Any advice?

which port is it set to connect to? and are you using an adaptor of any type from com to usb?

How can I confirm which COM port it's using?
No adaptors just ann extension for the serial cable.

I checked the Haltech offline and it's set to COM 1.
I haven't changed the COM setting the last time I was online with Haltech so I am assuming that the Haltech is trying to connect to the PC through COM 1.


P.S. the images I posted above are of the primary injectors back probed at the Haltech ECM and the CAS signals at the Haltech ECM, I mis-spoke in a previous posting.

If you're only getting one wet plug I'd begin by doing some real basic checks.

Pull the UIM and pull the primary fuel rail/injectors, (use your head here and don't start a fire, un plug the coils etc.).....have a friend crank it over while you hold the rail and watch that both injectors are indeed firing.

Then I'd make sure that all 4 plugs are also firing, sometimes even a new plug can get fouled and not work after one or two hard floods.

If your fundamentals are there, its probably a tuning issue. Hitmans maps are pretty fat from what I've seen, so it may just be and issue of over-fueling during low RPMs. But make sure everything is indeed good-to-go and then start adjusting the primer, main fuel and post start maps

I've since corrected the fuel delivery issue, so now I am getting both injectors to fire (still won't start but the injectors are firing).
I have Spark on all four plugs.
I just need to start adjusting the fuel maps to get it to start but I can't get the Haltech ECM online and that's where I'm stuck.

I contacted Claudio at Haltech and he recomended a few thing of which I tried all and all that's left is sending the Haltech ECM to Australia for repairs.

I don't understand how the ECM could be at fault if the ECM was working fine and communicating the day before it quit going online and nothing was done to the car or the ECM.
-Has anoyone else ever found the COM chip in the Haltech ECM to be bad?
-If it fails is there a way I can test it at home?
-When it fails does it start intermittently disconnecting from The Laptop like mine did or does it just stop working one day?

Does someone have a known good E6K ECM for sale?
I there another Haltech ECM that can be used with the E6K Flying Lead?
or know of someone in the New York Metro area that can tune Haltech?

COMM chip dying on E6K's are a common problem.


-Ted

Well then I guess I'm sending my ECM in for repairs.

im having similar problems. my rear housing plugs are soaked and front housing plugs are dry. and i also have problems connecting online. im in the new york area i might know a someone selling a haltech