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I love it when people post useless shit........
Mike-P-28 :asshole: |
Originally posted by MVAMotorsport 1755 out of a 4 rotor. |
my thoughts exactly greg......
Originally posted by Greg God have mercy on the pro class. |
Marcos/T88kid - You ran 7.63 with the Haltech and claim you have had problems. Have you actually spoken to Haltech about these problems? Feedback is the best form of critique for ANY business. If you have had problems, let them know and see what they say! Maybe you had a bad firmware version,which has happened, and they have a fix for it?
Im sure you have spoken to Justin Kearns at Haltech Sydney. He helped me out no end when I was having problems and Im a nobody in the grand scheme of things! If you went to him and explained your problems, I am 100% positive he would help you out as best he could! This is a direct quote from Justin: "We are willing to back our product all the way ... As I said before anyone that doubts the accuracy of the system is more than welcome to attend our factory where we will show them the accuracy of the Haltech beyond a shadow of doubt." If Haltech helped me out as much as they did, I am quite sure they would do the same for someone at the pointy end of their chosen field... If you have problems with your car coming off the line a bit crooked, would you junk the chassis and go to another one or would you go to the chassis builder and tell them whats happening? You would go to your chassis guy and explain whats happening and attempt to fix it, right? So why not do the same with your ECU? For the record, I have a first gen RX7 running 10.32 @ 133 with no NOS and a T2 box. The car weighs 2800lbs with me in it. Since I have had a fuel injected car, I have had 3 engines go and none of them were ECU related. If you have had engines blow "for no reason" but you blame the ECU, how about you look at whats programmed into the ECU. ANY ECU is only as good as the instructions its given... |
The first of the many responses that didn't flame us for critiquing Haltech ecu's.
We did work closely with Haltech with the issues. Picture this situation: Your car doesn't. You trouble shout and trouble shoot and come to the conclusion its the ecu. So you pull yours out and plug another in of the same model. Load up your program. The car starts! So you send it back and once they look at it you ask what was wrong with it? The answer is nothing is wrong. Then they ship it back and now your car starts with the shipped ecu. Working with Haltech didn't really produce anything positive regarding ecu issues. Mario |
Seeing how this post is directed at me I had better put my 2c worth in and have the MT boyz start shouting back with the usual unprofessionalism I expect.
I too tune Microtechs day in and day out. I am willing to bet I have seen far more of them then you ever will, and I know them inside and out. The LT range has been around for a little while and I have seen quite a number of them thank you very much. I have never said to not use an MT, I just say to be aware that they are not the great system that many so called tuners lead you to believe. OK here we go ..... 1) MT has finally after 10 years+ released a "Matrix" mode that allows rough 3D fuel tuning. It can be done through handset or laptop. It is something Hal did in the 80's with laptop software back when MT were using screwdrivers. 2) MT's ignition mapping IS NOT 3D. It is has an RPM based map every 500rpm, and it has another 2D map for vacuum/boost correction. This means the correction you apply at 8000rpm also gets applied at 1000rpm. NOT 3D. 3) MT's are still locked in configuration. If you pull your MT off your 2nd Gen and put it on your 3rd Gen it wont run properly because the triggering point is NOT ADJUSTABLE. It has to be sent back to be fixed. 4) MT's have a finest possible injection time of 0.06ms, which means the smallest step richer or leaner is 0.06ms. Hal's go down to 0.008ms which means they can be set up to run much closer and repeatably at a certain mixture. If you think you can find an MT that can beat 0.008 that is currently released you are dreaming. 5) This comes ddown to the installer and wiring quality, but I have NEVER seen a MT hold ignition timing steady. turn the Timing Lock ON, connect a timing light, and watch the timing scatter. I am not the only person who will say this. 6) E6K's ALL come with 8 injector drivers. They never made any that had 4 drivers. It was only the older models that required the customer to order extra drivers if it was required. 7) I reapeat again. if you cannot make an E6K run better than an LT then you need to go back to tuning school. There is more to tuning than WOT, which both ECU's will do the job. 8) Microtech's datalogging is not as good, although it does have a windows interface and hence a graphical view. Haltech have been working on Windows software for years and it wont be long before you will see it. 9) I am yet to see how to save a MT map to disk ?!? Laptop software put still no Save Map feature. I don't just tune Haltech's and they aren't always the ECU I recommend in all instances. I recommend those on a budget who just need their car running to go and get an MT although I don't sell them and don't want to. But if you are serious about getting your car running properly then look for a Haltech/Motec/Autronic. Sometimes I cannot recommend an Autronic if the owner doesn't want to modify ignition triggers, sometimes the owner cannot spring for a Motec but still needs an advanced ECU, in which case the next in line is a Haltech. In all honesty, I dont care what ECU you run, but don't start picking apart an ECU when it is not the ECU that has the problems. I can see why drag racers go for MT's. They don't require much knowledge, and with a basic mapping system it is quick to make adjustments. Marcos, for every E6K you pull off and replace with an MT, send it back over here and I will put them on cars where an MT has been removed because it does not drive as nice, and does not run all the ancilliaries of the car (A/C, full idle control, boost control, anti-lag, etc.. all at the same time). T88, if you are breaking engines then you know why. Tuning. Especially if it is happening at light throttle and only 8psi boost. I hope you come to your senses rather than start carrying on like a child and blaming ECU's. I hope we can end all this bickering. I didn't want to turn this into an MT bashing session as they do have their place in the ECU market, but I hope those of you reading this can see where I have been truthful and you can see why I show points where one is better than another. |
T88kid :wave:
Another useless post, to match the ones you have graced us with :D Post some usefull tech regarding the Microtech and why it is better than a Haltech and we will ALL gladly listen to what you have to say. Hitman's comments make sence to me, the small price variation between the units is insignificant compared to how much you spend on the car as a whole, so why pick a unit that is lower in spec (as pointed out by Hitman)? It sounds as though you are bashing the Haltech, we have ALL baged other ECU's before and it is not the way we should go about it. Each ECU is marketed to each target sector, some appeal to certain people, some other units appeal to a different group, your rants seem to simply "justify" your reasons for switching to another brand.......good for you If we are buying based on features and bang for buck, I would like you to tell me why I should buy a Microtech instead of a Haltech, as the reasons you have mentioned to me seem not to be true for the majority of Haltech users. I am asking this as a serious question, so I will be looking forward to your reasons as to why I should use one of these units (on a 13B).....look forward to your "usefull post" (seriously) |
Anyone who starts ragging so-and-so brand of EMS is better than another brand has got their heads up their asses, especially in drag racing.  Let me quantify that statement...  Drag racing runs in a very narrow band of engine running parameters which most EMS' can easily tune to - hell, it ends up being 2D tuning with load virtually thrown out the window due to it's nature.  If you don't understand that, you probably don't understand 90% of this thread.  Any monkey's uncle can tune a car to run at WOT in just a few hours.
To Mr. Acosta - there have been lots of rumors around your project cars with very little confirmations.  I've heard about your 20B project initially trying to be controlled with a Haltech E6K + IG5 combination, but it's obvious it was trashed.  Care to comment?  Hell, I'm interested in your entire 20B background and experience - care you drop some tid bits?  This will probably get ignored. :) Hell, I'll probably get slapped again for singling out people. :D To the dumbass T88 kid - I can get a MoTeC M4Pro loaded for under $3k.  I can get a M800 newest version easily under $10k fully loaded.  You have no idea what you're talking about.  Please go away.&bnsp Yes, these are in US dollars. -Ted |
Before this gets out of hand I am going to ask you guys to Be Respectful and no flames. Alot of good comes out of threads like this so lets keep it civil :) Back to the debate
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I never knew Microtechs were so cheap. I saw one (MT8) on a website for $1095 AUS.
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Originally posted by TonyTurboII I never knew Microtechs were so cheap. I saw one (MT8) on a website for $1095 AUS. |
Hm. Kind of like an AEM?
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Just to stir things up a bit, I guess most of you are aware that Haltech do have a new system coming sooner than you think, and it may make many of the doubters sit back and take notice. When they release it I guess it will make this current debate rather mute. If anyone wants to compare ECU's it will make alot of lesser systems weep. I do KNOW this as fact as I have been involved with it for some time.
Before the MT boyz get all worked up I want you to realise my point of view. If someone really is on a budget and just needs an ECU to get them going reasonably then the MT's are fine. If you are a drag racer that honestly does not know ECU tuning 110% but likes to do things themselves and need something that runs WOT and idle, an MT is fine. If you are running a street motor that cruises 99% of the time and has a million items to run off the ECU, and may need to pass local emission test, an MT is NOT the way to go. If you are fussy and want the motor to run better than OEM, an MT is not the way to go. As covered previously they do have their place in the market, but many who push them as being God's gift to the ECU world need to sit back and take a second look. I hope everyone can see that I am trying to be honest and post something useful on this forum. The point of my posts is not to say Haltech Haltech Haltech as they are only one of the many systems I know backwards, but it is to say that I know enough about them to know that most of the problems people have with them are from their own doing. Just because they personally have more success with one system does not make the other no good. I don't have a problem with Marcos, but I do professionally question his statements. |
Originally posted by T88Kid Ask any racer, any rotary racer out there.....how many motors have you blown running the E6k and E6S? Too many I bet. A few have even decided to go back to an F-series with a distributer to find some sence of reliability. What value is it to me to know how many engines have been blown with the E6K? Whether you come up with a specific number, or just the vague 'too many', it just doesn't tell me anything. What I honestly want to know is, are you claiming some specific shortcoming of the ECU for these failures? What are you suggesting the ECU did wrong? Obviously, for you to have a problem with the Haltech, you must think that your tuning parameters were safe and the ECU failed to apply them properly. I contend that, in order for you to draw that conclusion, you must have identified the discrepancy. Is it ignition, injector timing or is it something more trivial, like the MAP sensor? I am not flaming or saying that you haven't come to these conclusions, but your post doesn't explain to me what they might be. I have to believe that a person that really knows what they are doing with tuning would be able to say more than something like 'it blows a lot of engines.' Why does it blow engines? What does it do wrong? And how did you measure your results? A lot of people make big claims about their tuning prowess, so I think that details can only help overcome the skepticism that a lot of us have. Originally posted by T88Kid On the issue of why we arent using a MoTec? Lets see.....it costs about 20k. |
Originally posted by The_HITman 2) MT's ignition mapping IS NOT 3D. It is has an RPM based map every 500rpm, and it has another 2D map for vacuum/boost correction. This means the correction you apply at 8000rpm also gets applied at 1000rpm. NOT 3D. But If X Axis is RPM Table & Y AXIS is MAP Table how is this not 3D? If i have 40Deg. @ 8000rpm table & 15Deg. @ 1500rpm table.. How do you justify your quote ? Like 'most' AEMS out there, there is an X v's Y table.. Microtech just simplify this by using 2 seprate maps which run in conjuction which other. 3) MT's are still locked in configuration. If you pull your MT off your 2nd Gen and put it on your 3rd Gen it wont run properly because the triggering point is NOT ADJUSTABLE. It has to be sent back to be fixed. Personally.. This is the best thing ANY AEMS could do.. It basically saves countless hours on the phone to your ECU maker asking why the new setup tables 'You' have setup wont work/start the car. 5) This comes ddown to the installer and wiring quality, but I have NEVER seen a MT hold ignition timing steady. turn the Timing Lock ON, connect a timing light, and watch the timing scatter. I am not the only person who will say this. On another note.. Last week we had a Lancer 4G93 converted to turbo.. using the MT to run Ignition and Fuel while leaving the factory ECU to run the Idle & A/C. Not the only car we have done with this feature.. (GTR, GTS, MR2 and so on) This particular lancer was emission tested (i'll get/post you the report codes in the near future) and passed within the guidlines specified by ADR emission codes. Just to let you know there 'are' people out there who know how to tune a car within the injection time paramters MT offers. :) This post is not against you as a tuner and your knowledge with AEMS' For you have clearly shown you have knoledge in all the above feilds.. Although its strange how you seem to be in the middle of every MT debate. |
it comes down to the tuner i guess ,if i had a Haltech ECU i would take it too a person that was proficient in tuning Haltechs ,if i had a Microtech i would take it too a Microtech specialist , there are'nt many guys out there that can truly say they are 100% proficient in tuning all aftermarket ECU's and know how too get the most out of each one regardless of how good they think they are ,especially if they have a chip on their shoulder with their outlook too other brands of ECU's
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Originally posted by HWO The E6K has better datalogging that the MTX range of microtech computers. You havent seen the new data loggin on the LT range of coputers then??, you can log anything and everthing, and it works a treat |
That would make the lt about 10 years too late, haltech had it all in the late 80,s including sequential on the f3. Ah a Haltech f3-s and ig4 on a late 80's group A, brings a tear to the eye.
Chris |
Micro-Motec :
When you have a 2D correction applied to a 2D rpm based timing graph the result is not a 3D programmable graph. eg1 ) Say I add 10 degrees at 10" vacuum, it applies this amount no matter what the rpm. What if I only want 5 degrees extra advance at 1500rpm, but I want the 10 degrees extra at 3000rpm, there is nothing that can be done. eg2) If I want to plot some extra advance if the engine loads up (p/steer, A/C, etc...) at idle but nowhere else, how do I do it ? Answer, they cant be done because it is not a true 3D mapping system. Maybe they have an update that will come out soon to fix this. Hope so. Locked configuration may be good if you don't know anything, but I am sorry to say it but engine management is rather complex to get right and if you cannot even read the manual and configure it you should not be installing it yourself in the first place. the locked configuration is a pain in the butt if you buy one second hand or somply want to change things on the car. Haltech systems do connect directly to 4G63 and always have since the 80's, they connect directly to Nissan 360-slot optical triggers of all types, Daihatsu trigger, Mazda reluctor trigger, Motronic triggers of any number of teeth, Honda OEM triggers, Subaru triggers old an new, just to name a few. It is all user configurable from the one box. So do Motec do this. Autronic may be the one you are thinking of that need a custom trigger. Congratulations on passing the emissions test. It is quite an achievement with any aftermarket system, and I do respect that. I always seem to be involved in many MT debates even though I dont want to. As I always say, they do have their niche market but I have again always wished that people would accept them for what they are. They are a cheap system with specs that dont match other more expensive systems. When people realise they aren't the top of the tree no matter who uses them, who runs whatever quarter mile times, then I wont have anything to debate against. It is when people push them to the wrong end user that I get annoyed and put my 2c worth in. It is also when people make broad incorrect statements that I get involved and try to keep things technical rather than putting it down to opinion. I hope everyone that reads this thread can see that I am not taking sides and I am being objective. I am merely pointing out technical inadequacies while others are making broad statements of personal opinion. It is not an attack on MT nor a personal attack on anyone here. |
Hey guys, I see there are some REAL tuners in this thread. I have a question and I'm sure you guys are going to tell me its just a POS but what are the downfalls of a Power FC? I'm sure some of you guys have tried tuning with it. I know using the commander is a pain but with the laptop software from Apexi (not available to public) or the Datalogit software (is available to public) that is currently available it is no loner hard to program. I'm not really asking about the ease of use anyway, I'm looking for hardware issues that I might need to be aware of. Some of the things like you guys are talking about for these other ecus. The real shortcomings in the computer.
Thanks, STEPHEN |
hey guys
this was not suppose to get out of hand like it has. However (hitman) you made a post trying to say that i only tune WOT....OK you know what,,let see who is a better tuner. I would challenge you, ,,,lets race bring anykind of car you want,,,pro ,,street, outlaw, what ever it is,,,,Bring it, we'll see who's better, let me know what car you want to race, and i'll get a car the same to race you,,,,AND TO MAKE THIS MORE FUN,,I'LL CALL ALL THE MAGAZINE TO BE THERE,,,,I'LL BE WILLING TO FLY MY CAR IN TO AUSTRALIA....OR YOU COME HERE. prove to me that i dont know what i'm doing.. HEY YOU CAN CALL ME AT 201-488-5111....
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HA HA HA!
Damn Marcus, get a grip! You made some points about the Haltech that were incorrect. Matt corrected you and posted the correct information. Then you fire up and come back with "Well my car is faster than your car"...are you in the 4th grade or something? As an engine builder and tuner, you should know there is ALOT more to tuning than outright HP and ETs. Any ECU, as Matt has said, can tune, run and make decent HP at WOT. Its what happens from idle to WOT that is the art and makes the difference between all the ECUs. This was a good debate with a fair bit of technical information being thrown about. As usual, it deteriorates into a "mine is bigger/faster/stronger" slug fest which no one ends up winning because people don't give a flying fuck. In plain terms, the Haltech has more features, more resolution and a higher probability of being 'tuned' better because of it. If you can't make something work with much better tools, then you should start again and learn how to make better use of the better tools. eg you have 2 people porting engines. 1 is using a drill bit and a file, the other is using a dremel with porting tips and a flow bench. One is crude but should still be okay but will never be as good as the other in the hands of the right person! If you are hell bent on proving a point, come to Australia. The same car on the same dyno is the only real way to see who is the better tuner. I know where my money is going. Will it happen? HA! Doubt it.... |
Hitman ........... what are the real world applications for a given ECU with resolution of injection timing down to 0.008 ........... What does that really mean to me cruising along in my car ??? On a side note if your tuning a car for emissions then your not tuning the car for out right power are you ??? Also depending on who you talk to it will depend on where you have your air to fuel ratio set at as everyone has a different idea of what is safe ??? A serious post with serious question most probably not worded well ........ sorry :)
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Originally posted by AJC13B HA HA HA! Damn Marcus, get a grip! You made some points about the Haltech that were incorrect. Matt corrected you and posted the correct information. Then you fire up and come back with "Well my car is faster than your car"...are you in the 4th grade or something? As an engine builder and tuner, you should know there is ALOT more to tuning than outright HP and ETs. Any ECU, as Matt has said, can tune, run and make decent HP at WOT. Its what happens from idle to WOT that is the art and makes the difference between all the ECUs. This was a good debate with a fair bit of technical information being thrown about. As usual, it deteriorates into a "mine is bigger/faster/stronger" slug fest which no one ends up winning because people don't give a flying fuck. In plain terms, the Haltech has more features, more resolution and a higher probability of being 'tuned' better because of it. If you can't make something work with much better tools, then you should start again and learn how to make better use of the better tools. eg you have 2 people porting engines. 1 is using a drill bit and a file, the other is using a dremel with porting tips and a flow bench. One is crude but should still be okay but will never be as good as the other in the hands of the right person! If you are hell bent on proving a point, come to Australia. The same car on the same dyno is the only real way to see who is the better tuner. I know where my money is going. Will it happen? HA! Doubt it.... |
Re: hey guys
Originally posted by MVAMotorsport this was not suppose to get out of hand like it has. However (hitman) you made a post trying to say that i only tune WOT....OK you know what,,let see who is a better tuner. I would challenge you, ,,,lets race bring anykind of car you want,,,pro ,,street, outlaw, what ever it is,,,,Bring it, we'll see who's better, let me know what car you want to race, and i'll get a car the same to race you,,,,AND TO MAKE THIS MORE FUN,,I'LL CALL ALL THE MAGAZINE TO BE THERE,,,,I'LL BE WILLING TO FLY MY CAR IN TO AUSTRALIA....OR YOU COME HERE. prove to me that i dont know what i'm doing.. HEY YOU CAN CALL ME AT 201-488-5111.... Yeah, I realy can see the benifit of buying a Microtech now !, seriously though, How hard is it to give us some real technical facts? This is what I am after, as I am sure a majority of people who use this forum are after this info as well. Simply resorting to bullshit "hollywood" styled comments makes you look bad and does not answer anyones questions about the product you say is better than another. I am open to suggestions, but you do nothing to answer legitimate points other than bless us with your stupidity. We have ALL at one stage or another gone down this path for various reasons, it in the end serves no purpose and people learn very little from it, other than not to deal with you for making a comment worthly of a high school playground conversation. P.S. I know from first hand experience ! Answer the questions and people will make up their own minds as to wether you have technical merit or true unbiased "influenced" opinions about ECU's you "choose" to recommend................ |
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