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2 Attachment(s)
So can someone explain to me the exact difference between the Renesis trigger and the older style? I know how the 2nd and 3rd gen ones work and I understand their waveform:
https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1276788019 https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1276788019 |
Originally Posted by Claudio RX-7
(Post 10062312)
Hey Chris,
I have to, in all honestly, say i have very little problems with the factory CAS on 2nd gen, cosmo and 3 rotor motors, usually ive always been able to set everyone of those properly with no problems what so ever. I have also talked to a few people that tell me the GT101 sensors will fit somewhat easily on 3rd gen motors. The renesis trigger wheel would be a good idea too, lets hope they apply it soon enough to the 3 rotor as well. Most of the time the stock sensors will provide a good stable signal, but you should always scope them to see exactly what's going on, it reveals so much priceless information when you do, its the difference between a proper running engine and one that will miss fire due to incorrectly dialing in the triggers. You're missing the point of a crank trigger Claudio. It's not that the signal from the CAS is problematic, it's the slop in the drive gear that we want to eliminate. When you need to measure crankshaft position, the best place to measure it is at the crank. There can be several degrees of slop in the gear lash of the CAS that can be eliminated by going to a crank trigger. Is it something needed for every engine? No. Can high horsepower engines benefit? Sure. |
Originally Posted by arghx
(Post 10062433)
So can someone explain to me the exact difference between the Renesis trigger and the older style?
The Renesis accomplishes the same task as the older 12+1 with only one sensor. The Renesis trigger is similar to a Motronic missing tooth wheel like the 36-1 or 60-2. There are three sets of missing teeth on the Renesis wheel. Not sure why Mazda felt they needed three sets. The 12+1 gives engine position and RPM by the ECU seeing the +1 and knowing that one 360* revolution has been completed and it resets. It then counts the 12 teeth to determine RPM and engine position. Only difference is you have essentially two separate "wheels", so you need two sensors. The Renesis wheel only needs one sensor. The ECU sees the missing teeth and knows the engine has completed a 360* revolution and resets. It then counts teeth for RPM and position information just like the 12+1 system. |
Oh. That's just like a lot of other newer cars, except on a piston engine you typically have a cam position sensor(s) for sequential fuel injection.
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Originally Posted by arghx
(Post 10063024)
Oh. That's just like a lot of other newer cars, except on a piston engine you typically have a cam position sensor(s) for sequential fuel injection.
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Wow, this is exactly what I was looking for! Very excited to see some results using the renesis trigger wheel and trigger!
Would love to see some pics once the setup gets installed. Also wondering about how much modification the stock renesis parts will need to fit on the S5 E-shaft pulley. |
Originally Posted by C. Ludwig
(Post 10063003)
You're missing the point of a crank trigger Claudio. It's not that the signal from the CAS is problematic, it's the slop in the drive gear that we want to eliminate. When you need to measure crankshaft position, the best place to measure it is at the crank. There can be several degrees of slop in the gear lash of the CAS that can be eliminated by going to a crank trigger. Is it something needed for every engine? No. Can high horsepower engines benefit? Sure.
B |
Good news about the Renesis being an easy option, but how about the wheel part for the E6X/ E8 owners ?
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Originally Posted by RX7(613)
(Post 10084241)
but how about the wheel part for the E6X/ E8 owners ?
Not sure what you mean? Which wheel? |
^^ sorry for not being clear.
The op posted referring to using a trigger wheel that any of the haltech ( and other ) EMS can understand. ( Hall effect setup ). I was just wodnering if there was nay updates regarding this trigger wheel/ hall effect trigger setup. .----------- someone should make something like this plug n play for the 13b https://www.fontananissanracing.com/..._end_12_sm.jpg |
Originally Posted by RX7(613)
(Post 10086419)
someone should make something like this plug n play for the 13b
http://www.atkinsrotary.com/images/OneRotor4.gif |
Just heatshrink it, split-conduit is teh evil... that is one butt-ugly wiring harness.
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None of the Haltechs will work with either trigger wheel posted above. Haltech will only recognize the 2/3+1, 12+1, or now the Renesis wheel. The Renesis wheel is very similar to the Motronic wheels posted above.
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Originally Posted by C. Ludwig
(Post 10093492)
None of the Haltechs will work with either trigger wheel posted above. Haltech will only recognize the 2/3+1, 12+1, or now the Renesis wheel. The Renesis wheel is very similar to the Motronic wheels posted above.
Will do pretty much anything DIY , but timming source I dont want to screw up. Already lost a motor to mismatched front pullies once. |
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Not for me, that space is occupied by my belt drive fuel pump. Beautiful setup though!
On a side note i finally got fed up with second guessing my timing marks so i trough this little baby together. http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/1540/carpics067.jpg |
Ah ok! good idea for getting the timing as close to zero'd as possible!
It still amazes me how many aftermarket FC pulley manufacturers put NO timing marks on their crank pullies?! wow? |
Originally Posted by C. Ludwig
(Post 9635357)
If the home tooth passes it's sensor and three trigger teeth pass the trigger sensor then the trigger tooth passes the sensor; the tooth offset would be 3. Make sense?
Just to be sure i understand what your saying. Lets use the factory setting of the CAS as an example (TO-11 TA-65). The home tooth passes it's sensor and the ECM begins to count trigger teeth 1-11. When the 11th tooth passes the sensor it knows the next tooth (tooth 12) will be the point that it starts counting the trigger angle. So if i am correct you will have an ignition event 65 degrees after the 12th tooth (assuming the timing is locked at 0). Does that sound correct? Thanks |
Originally Posted by 13B-RX3
(Post 10573587)
Just to be sure i understand what your saying. Lets use the factory setting of the CAS as an example (TO-11 TA-65). The home tooth passes it's sensor and the ECM begins to count trigger teeth 1-11. When the 11th tooth passes the sensor it knows the next tooth (tooth 12) will be the point that it starts counting the trigger angle. So if i am correct you will have an ignition event 65 degrees after the 12th tooth (assuming the timing is locked at 0). Does that sound correct?
Thanks Pretty much. The ECU starts counting from 0 though. And with tooth offset of 11, the 11th tooth is actually the trigger tooth, not the 12th. Basically through your setup on there and put a value in there that you think will be correct. Lock the timing and shoot the pulley with the timing light while cranking it. Use tooth offset for a gross adjustment and trigger angle for a fine adjustment. Manipulate the values until the timing lines up properly. At that point start the engine and repeat the process with a dynamic test through the rev range. As long as the trigger angle ends up in the range of about 55-90 degrees and the timing zeroes up properly, you'll be golden. Also, since you're doing a custom setup, throw a mark on the pulley for 10* BTDC. It will be much easier to keep the engine running there while it's locked than the stock ATDC positions. |
Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me. It's one of those things i never fully understood. I guess i was over analyzing it, now that i understand it's pretty freaking simple!
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Originally Posted by C. Ludwig
(Post 10093492)
None of the Haltechs will work with either trigger wheel posted above. Haltech will only recognize the 2/3+1, 12+1, or now the Renesis wheel. The Renesis wheel is very similar to the Motronic wheels posted above.
But i do understand the importance of the mechanical slap that the CAS will have to influence some slight drifting of timing, and in high horsepower high rpm applications the more precise the timing the lower the risks and the better the engine runs. I've been told the renesis wheel fits in the same bolt pattern that the S6 engines have for the crank pulley, that should make it easy to retrofit, except of course, a bracket for the sensor will need to be built. Good work on those pulley options, although yeah, the Haltechs wont read anything other than the stock trigger combinations and the renesis wheel, cant use 36-1, 60-2, or anything other than rotary oem. |
Well, it's been a long time but i finally got it setup. It's not the prettiest thing in the world but it should work for now. If everything goes well i will redo it this winter. Thanks again to everyone for all the help!
The trigger sensor. http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/5452/carpics082.jpg Home Sensor. http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/7905/carpics085.jpg A closeup of the home tooth. http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/5307/carpics087.jpg |
Originally Posted by Claudio RX-7
(Post 10583948)
Yeah i feel that the Renesis wheel is the proper solution for rotaries wanted true crank trigger. Hey Chris, been out of the forum a while, saw that reply you put in relation to my comment on the stock CAS working. And yeah you're right, crank reference will always be the best, i didnt mean it as it was better to leave the CAS because it works.
But i do understand the importance of the mechanical slap that the CAS will have to influence some slight drifting of timing, and in high horsepower high rpm applications the more precise the timing the lower the risks and the better the engine runs. I've been told the renesis wheel fits in the same bolt pattern that the S6 engines have for the crank pulley, that should make it easy to retrofit, except of course, a bracket for the sensor will need to be built. Good work on those pulley options, although yeah, the Haltechs wont read anything other than the stock trigger combinations and the renesis wheel, cant use 36-1, 60-2, or anything other than rotary oem. Cool setup 13B-RX3! |
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