Thanks,

That is how I have it wired up.

So I spent another 5 hours trying to set the timing during cranking. Haltech locked to 5° and 15 respectively. IT seems to fire randomly and not consistantly. Sometimes it would line up but without changing anything the next time starting it would not be aligned!

1. I am having problems with the 500r falsely triggering and firing sparks at random/ wrong times.
2. How important is it to shield the trigger wires from the ecu, (the wire diagram did not show or mention sheilded wires) and what is the importance of the trigger ground wire on the cdi box.
3. I need to confirm that multi spark will only occur if the trigger pulse stays low for 0.6ms after the falling edge. I had my duty cycle set to 95%

I do not know how to set the box up as a single spark!

Thanks guys for all your help. Its just frustrating spending 15 hours alone on just trying to start it!

Ground to CDI box is important. It's Vref for the entire circuit.

Unfortunately Ian, it sounds like were both in similar dire straits! Even worse yet, it sounds like you could really use an o-scope:

1. Scope the two trigger/CAS sensors AT the ECU connector and make shure you're getting clean and consistent waveforms. This will rule out trigger sensors or wiring to the ECU.
2. Next scope the the ground trigger signal out out of the ECU. Again, you're looking for square triggers out of Leading, and then clean and offsetting patterns out of the Trailing ground triggers.
3. Finally, check the 400v-ish pulse at the CDI-coils interface (NOT plug wires! ! ) for Trailing and Leading.
4. Obviously, if it's none of these, then it should be downstream of the CDI-coils interface (i.e coil harness, coils or plug wires.).

Doesn't sound like fun, but it's will definitely tell you where in the system inpu/output flow the problem is occuring.

Or maybe someone here will come across as an "rotary-oracle" and tell you outright the where the culprit lies! :scratch:

As long as the box is firing multiple sparks for each event the strobe of the timing light is going to move around and it's going to appear like the timing is randomly moving. If it were me I'd get it close, fire it up, and then rev it past the point where it switches to single spark and use that rev range to zero the timing.

If you have an LED test light you can check for a signal from the Haltech. No real need for a scope here. The LED test light works just like a noid light used for injectors and will tell you if you're getting an ignition output signal from the ECU. If you have that you can at least narrow the problem down the CDI/coils/etc.

Do you have spark on all four plugs? Are you using a 2nd gen CAS? If so I like to plug in a spare CAS in these cases and spin them by hand with the plugs stuck in the wires and grounded to the body so I can watch for spark. Doing this will also give you a very rough idea if the firing sequence is correct.

I'm not sure how to turn of this multi spark event? I can't even get it to catch.
I never checked the trailing coils since the leading is what would at least fire the engine over.
I've noticed that the rpm will bounce from 250 to 950 rpm sometimes on the gauge! Can the multispark issue do this as well?

This is what autronic sent me.

Hello Ian,

If I can start with the connections listed in the first email. You say
below; Haltech output 1 = CDI Channel 1 = Front Leading, Haltech output
2 = CDI Channel 2 = Rear Leading, Haltech output 3 = CDI Channel 3 =
Front Leading, Haltech output 4 = CDI Channel 4 = Rear Leading.

Obviously two of those should be trailing connections. The CDI should
not be connected with a Leading & Trailing on the same discharge
capacitor. Channels 1 & 2 are on one capacitor while channels 3 & 4 are
on the other capacitor. So if all coils (including Leadings) are to be
fired sequentially the Leadings should be connected to channels 1&2 with
the trailings on channels 3&4, or visa versa. (If the Leadings are to be
waste spark then they should be connected to one output only)

Regarding the triggering problems;
With an Autronic ECU triggering the CDI it is not necessary to shield
the trigger wires. I don't know if the Haltech ignition output drivers
are susceptible to interference but I would be looking closely at the
Haltech input trigger wires. Also, if the coils you are using are
normally transistor driven (which I think they would be) you should
reverse the polariy when driving them with a CDI. If the CDI has a
serial number ending with HF the CDI can be limited to a single spark by
setting the pulse time (after the -ve trigger event) to 0.6 msec or
less. Use 0.5msec if there is any uncertainty about the pulse duration.
The CDI trigger ground is not required if the ECU and CDI are powered
from the same battery. What is important is that the CDI main ground
wires are kept as short as practicable and that the wire ground point is
not the same as for the ECU. If the ECU is grounded to the engine and
the CDI is grounded to the chassis try moving the ECU ground to thhe
chassis.

Best regards.
Ian Hamwood
(for Autronic - Aubert Electronics Pty Ltd)


Thanks guys for all of the help. this is impossible without help!

Don't worry about what your tach is saying. What is the Haltech data page saying? What is the "trigger count at last home" count showing? It should read a consistent 12. If that is reading more or less then you have a trigger issue.

What Autronic said in their first paragraph is the same thing Carlos and I have told you. Sounds like you have it wired correctly though, as far as the inputs for the 500R.

Try the stuff I suggested with the LED test light and checking for spark by spinning the CAS and let us know what you got.

Sorry to jump in here so late, MSD's DONT have dual capacitors and this is the main reason why you CANT run a single DIS box with a rotary, it only has 1 capacitor, so it cant fire the coils fast enough and you're left with timing problems uptop.

The day MSD decides to build a dual capacitor CDI box will be a day for celebration, unless they make it cost the same as M&W in which case thats why we're stuck with.

This problem is really not making any sense, you should've been able to get this going already, there are only so many options you can try, between constant duty and constant charge or rising edge and falling edge.

I did an FD once with E6X, it took us a while to figure it out, and the 500R did not work with most of the settings, with this X we ended up with my first post's settings, but!, i think that since this was a 1st batch E6X, supposedly they had to be set with the edge reversed, so, Constant Duty, Falling Edge, 40% should've worked for you.

Something else must be wrong. What coils are you using again??

If you have a set of T2 coils with their igniters intact, my suggestion is that you try to start the car using those first, get that out of the way, if you can get it to start fine, your ECU is working properly, your engine is fine, but if you cant, there is something else going on.

Go to the simplest alternative and start discarding options.

I don't know the first thing about the 500R, but personally if the tach is jumping when you're trying to start it there's a trigger issue - period.

Check the wires on the CAS where we found breaks on that old one of mine. Maybe yours wasn't too far behind it...

Monitor the trigger diagnostic values, home counter, trigger counter and trigger at last home, they should read from 0-255 on the home and the trigger, and progressively count upwards to 255 and restart, the trigger at last home should read a fixed steady value of 24, if this value oscillates then you are having trigger problems. Trigger and Home filter should be set to 1, and gain between 2-3 for both as a starting point. Falling edges on both.

wow.... Wish you were closer to me so i could have a look...

Well like already stated make sure your not trying to fire L&T on the same cap..
Other then that multispark or not you should not have any issues..
False triggering and what not has to do with your ecu/trigger input/ignition setup...

I wish i had installed one with haltech so i can confirm setup but i haven't...
Although i have installed a ton with Autronic/Motec ecus and never have any issues firing thru any amount of fuel or boost...

Thanks for all of the help.

It may very well be this multispark issue. I don't know how to turn this option off.

1: I will monitor the trigger diagnostic page as suggest.
2: Oscilliscope will be a pain but my friend NIK has one.
3: I will try turning the CAS with the power on to see the spark order.
4. I have a spare CAS.
5. Revert back to stock.

(Note: Car was running fun before the CDI install)

You will not believe it.

I was turning the CAS by hand and could not get it to fire at the same spot each time. I had the fuel pump fuse out so everything was nice and quiet. I heard some crackling noise out of the trailing coils and I thought that would be strange that it would fire right away. So I pulled the CAS out and spun it by hand staring at the trailing coils and low and behold there were like 7 shards of spark arcing to the frame coming from the body of the coil. WTF. I turn of the lights and watch the light show again. I look over towards the leading coils and its doing the same thing but not as bad.

Could this be the gremlin! Could this explain why it never fired twice in one spot and sometimes within a few degrees of each other? IS this CDI too much for stock coils. Do I really need to switch the polarity at the coils???

The mystery continues....

IT STARTS.

I switched the polarity at the coils. It started with my first settings first try! WTF. I put the positive on the postive terminal and the ground on the negative and this did not work. Switched it and it started.

Thanks to autronic for mentioning it to me and for nik convincing me to do this. I didn't think that would do anything.

Thanks,
Ian

Only thing is rpm is messed up. It seems to indicate correct during reving but on idle its like double. Also the apex avcr shows crazy high rpm. Can't all go smoothly I suppose.

Good deal.

Have you checked to see if the coils are still arcing to the body? I'd double check, since you've used fairly old coils, it's possible they're still leaking to ground. I'm surprised you didn't get zapped!

Also, the reason you couldn't get what you thought was consistent timing when you were cranking it over by hand is that the ECU will trigger off a single tooth and then calculate the time between that tooth and the spark event. When you're cranking it by hand it's simply too erratic of an RPM for the ECU to be able to correctly time the spark.

I give up. Out comes the CDI. In with the stock. Cannot get it to work in time for DGRR 2009 and will only bother with it this coming fall. Or just plain sell it.

it starts fine and idles fine. But will not drive worth a shit. It sounds like its missing a beat bad.

It will not start in constant duty but runs with my old constant charge set up.

Locking the timing at 5 degrees and setting it is not a problem. Car barely runs in locked timing. But when i apply throttle the timing mark moves to the left big time. I thought applying throttle with the timing lock on it should sit on the -5°?

Ian

Simptom of incorrect trigger edge/home edge, most likely home, or the CDI's input, if you have it on falling, it should be rising, or viceversa. Eitherway, sounds like you're better off running with stock coils for now. They are in fact good for a lot of power, so no worries there. LS1/LS truck coils are awsome, have clients with them making over 550hp to the wheels on a drag car. I would not even bother with CDIs anymore unless im running something with crazy boost and shooting for over 700-800 to the wheels or higher.

But, if you still have the trigger/home sensors wired wrong, this could be the whole cause of your problems altogether. I know thats gotta be unlikely with all the documentation available out there. For the rotaries that is. :D My advise, take that thing out, you'll loose less hair and sleep over this.

PS. Did you ever monitor your trigger diagnostic page, that is the first thing to do in order to start troubleshooting no spark/fuel conditions. If the ECU isnt being triggered correctly, then its never going to fire correctly. But, since you said it ran fine before the CDI when in, and im assuming that is the only thing between then and now that is different, then its probably a problem with that CDI.

i'm sure the timing circuit is not wired wrong. I've driven this car on two haltechs. (E6K and E8) for years without ignition issues.

Datalogging today shows the home counter counting up like a nice clean set of steps. Trigger count at last home is rock steady at 12 counts. Trigger counter is odd. Its not consistant. I will try to install another CAS.

Thanks for your help.

Trigger count will not be steady. It happens faster than the resolution of the logger will pick up. As long as trigger count at last home is a constant 12 you're good.

I agree with Claudio on the inductive coils. Unless they're not working, and it takes a lot to overwork the newer coils, then there's just no reason to go CDI.

Damn Ian, I TRULY feel your pain. Our problems are remarkabley similar and was hoping we could work this out together.

I'm fighting the urge to follow you in desporation and get rid of the CDI box if this goes on much long. The unfortunate part is that I'm SO DAMN STUBBORN when it comes to problem solving. Oh well, I'll keep watching and report back when I have more.

Hey, here's a thought.... want to trade 500R's? I guess it's possible that we could both have problemative CDI's or perfect CDIs with the problem elsewhere. However, I'd be awefully curious to see if our boxes act similarly. Of course, I understand this would take a leap of faith. Worst case it would cost shipping both ways (and insurance). Just a though... PM me if interested.

Guys, if you dont mind me asking, how much did you pay for these 500R's, were they bought new or used? M&W CDIs are some of the best in the market and Haltech carry them, the Pro14-R or the Pro Drag 4 are the boxes that can be installed on rotaries, their cost is high, but they are guaranteed to work.

Having said that, the LS truck coils are a very affordable alternative for you both. I would definitely use these with out even thinking about it.

What's y'alls power goals? Realistically speaking?

Claudio: I purchased my 500R new from Enzo a couple of years ago. Though I concur that M&W makes some nice units, I'll probabley return to inductive ignition if I never get this sorted out. I already have a Bosch 4-channel ignitor, so I'll just have to figure out which coils to run. Definintely will keep the LS coils in mind.

I'm setup for 425-475RWHP on E85 at 21-25 psi: GT-40R, 1000/1660 imjectors and twin 044's. pushing 60psi base FP.

$1200CDN. Do you want to trade:)

Currently 400rwhp on a mustang. I have a methanol kit installed and hope to turn the boost up.

I was going to buy M&W until I found out the price.

So yours acts the same I guess. I am seeing if my buddy that has the full autronic fuel management wants to use it on the race car. Then I may go M&W or just the HKS type thing.


IS there anyone that has a successful installation. It has to be something simple.....

I know where the M&W Pro14R can be had for about $1200CDN. ;)

Ok. Now you tell me.................... (That was originally my first pick!!)

Well after playing it with so long and changing all of the setups to try and make it run I found out I had the setup set to rising. (I originally tryed to start it with falling.)

I changed it back to falling and it runs well now. Sort of hard to tell since I only took it down the block. Its dirty out there and SNOWING!!!

So once all said and down I will post the complete settings and wiring. The big thing here to remember is that the CDI needs the power to the coils reversed.