First rebuild and its dead
I just finished my first rebuild on an 1985 12a I meticulously went through the Atkins video and sealed EVERYTHING greased everything with Vaseline that is suppose to get Vaseline. The engine turns over the timing is right spark plugs are firing but wont start. :mad:
My father and I (him being a veteran cylinder engine re-builder) are STUMPED on what to do now :( I have no blowback from the carbs the exhaust is puffing but only lightly kind of expect that with how little the 12a pushes. when I removed the condenser I kinda ripped the back off but the wire is still connected. I have a very short hose coming from the right side of the air intake that doesn't seem to have any place to go (2-3 inches) :scratch::scratch: I need some advice from the experts please help me! Thank You for any assistance |
did you happen to pull the main pulley apart during your rebuild? if so, you may have put it back together incorrectly, and now you won't have accurate timing.
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Thank you for your reply diabolical. I actually HAD the main pulley on wrong and corrected it engine still not starting. I just pulled the spark plugs and what do you know they are all gunked with Vasaline :( anyone know an easy way to remove Vasaline from the engine?
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carb/starting fluid and then dry them off.
and the main pulley can go on in any 90/180* out of position spot on the hub, so be 100% sure it is in the original position. normally i stamp them for this issue. |
Originally Posted by RotaryEvolution
(Post 11533264)
carb/starting fluid and then dry them off.
and the main pulley can go on in any 90/180* out of position spot on the hub, so be 100% sure it is in the original position. normally i stamp them for this issue. |
Engine is now trying to start YAY but is flooded put plugs in crank and car tried to start but never went took plugs out and they are WET with gasoline AHHH time to do a search for unflooding a 12a :(
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remove the plugs, disconnect the fuel pump and the 2 ignitior connectors on the distributor and crank the engine without pumping the gas pedal until all the clouds of vapor subside.
reinstall everything and try again. you can also try the pull start method but i do not much care to do that for an intial startup where listening to and watching everything in action for the first time is rather critical. |
I am kind of afraid of the pull start method as well. I have done what you said Rotary Evolution and now the engine kind of fires but doesn't run. Thank you for the advise btw.
I am thinking I might have installed a rotor upside down? I made sure rear rotor was big bulge aiming to the oil pan during installation as per instructions on Atkins video I will need to check my original pair as the pair I am using is a used retooled pair from Atkins. Does anyone have a description/pictures of how the 12a rotors are suppose to go in the housings? is it POSSIBLE to install one upside down and not both? last question are both rotors the same on a 12a? |
If ur worried about the quality of your build do a compression test. If your sure your timing is correct try starting fluid.
Air Fuel Compression Spark What r u missing? Good luck:) |
Originally Posted by ghost1000
(Post 11533581)
If ur worried about the quality of your build do a compression test. If your sure your timing is correct try starting fluid.
Air Fuel Compression Spark What r u missing? Good luck:) spark... that I DIDNT have before now I am waiting on new plugs and the old ones I am going to try one more time in the morning before picking up the new ones. I am not sure I have good enough compression but I don't have a tester any way to do this without one? |
Where is the EGI fuse? I cant seem to find any specific location in the forums, on google, or search.
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Originally Posted by anjhindul
(Post 11533568)
I am thinking I might have installed a rotor upside down? I made sure rear rotor was big bulge aiming to the oil pan during installation as per instructions on Atkins video
I will need to check my original pair as the pair I am using is a used retooled pair from Atkins. Does anyone have a description/pictures of how the 12a rotors are suppose to go in the housings? is it POSSIBLE to install one upside down and not both? last question are both rotors the same on a 12a?
Originally Posted by anjhindul
(Post 11533802)
Where is the EGI fuse? I cant seem to find any specific location in the forums, on google, or search.
1. you may want to leave the distributor loose and rotate it to see if it will fire easier in a given direction. you can set the timing later. 2. also, I have found Seafoam down the carb to work wonders with a flooded car. 3. double check your wires, both at the plugs AND at the coils |
The one I am sure is TDC seems to be starting to purr after a good 10-15 seconds of starting but never runs. she starts to purrrr but then it is like it loses compression. I tried this with the oil a capful in each rotor and that seems to have given enough compression to try to start.
I have tried all 4 different configurations of the timing mark. one purrs 2 does nothing and the one opposite the purr side seems to bog the engine maybe reverse firing? or Atkins sent me 2 of the same rotors... :( any suggestions for tow starting? |
checked all wires that I can find all are in great condition and I have put contact cleaner on them all cleaned em
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When I purchased the rotors from Atkins it would seem that I was sent 2 rear rotors :( now I have an upside down rotor and a right side up rotor in my engine :((( this shouldnt stop it from running correct?
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I'm more curious about why it needed a rebuild in the first place. Fuel system failure/lean condition might of been your problem in the first place.
If ur sure ur timing is correct spray it with starter fluid. I would also disconnect trailing until ur sure everything is correct. A pepboys or harbor freight compression tester cost$35 Rember to remove the valve at the end of the hose |
got it to run! but as soon as it warmed up and the choke was turned off the engine died. I had gotten out to check the engine out look at the timing etc and SHIT get in fast shes DIEING! I don't think she is holding compression right. no leaks oil or water I used the massacre of oil in the spark plug holes and that worked... for a bit :(
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Originally Posted by ghost1000
(Post 11534315)
I'm more curious about why it needed a rebuild in the first place. Fuel system failure/lean condition might of been your problem in the first place.
If ur sure ur timing is correct spray it with starter fluid. I would also disconnect trailing until ur sure everything is correct. A pepboys or harbor freight compression tester cost$35 Rember to remove the valve at the end of the hose the engine is NOT holding compression below 1500 rpm of course above that and you dont really need the APEX seals... lol I will be seeing to getting a compression tester and finding out if just one or both of the rotors have problems :( and I did such a thorough job lubing everything and checking to make sure it worked well. AKA checking and double checking. those APEX for the ability to move On a side note the oil level sensor broke and my oil presure gauge inside the car is reading 0... but the oil pump is definitely pumping oil into the carbs at the least. putting the oil in the plug holes does get the engine started but as I said as soon as I let it fall below 1500 the engine dies unless I very quickly open up the gas. perhaps the fuel mixture is out or mayhaps the gas is only half working? car did sit for like 3 months and I did bump a lot of the parts on the carb especially when trying to reconnect the throttle cable |
OK i found the oil sensor WHERE is the plug? rofl I cant find how to hook the oil sensor up to my electrical :(
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time to rebuild the rebuild... @#$@#$ I guess I left the side seals to long so they are putting pressure on the corner seals and not letting the engine hold compression. this time I am going to do a compression test before reinstalling the engine.
Anyone have suggestions on what seals I NEED to replace? when I did the rebuild I replaced EVERYTHING all oil seals oil control rings water jackets oil pan seal do any of them need to be replaced? |
try some oil down the intake
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Originally Posted by anjhindul
(Post 11534449)
the engine is NOT holding compression below 1500 rpm of course above that and you dont really need the APEX seals... lol I will be seeing to getting a compression tester and finding out if just one or both of the rotors have problems :( and I did such a thorough job lubing everything and checking to make sure it worked well. AKA checking and double checking. those APEX for the ability to move
Originally Posted by anjhindul
(Post 11534796)
time to rebuild the rebuild... @#$@#$ I guess I left the side seals to long so they are putting pressure on the corner seals and not letting the engine hold compression. this time I am going to do a compression test before reinstalling the engine.
I've seen no evidence of troubleshooting since you stated it fired up. timing? idle mixture? vacuum leaks? I mean it is sort of disturbing that you did not clearance the side seals (and I'll assume other things, too), but at the end of the day, this is a rebuild that just recently fired. troubleshooting and fine tuning sort of go with the territory. condemning it at this point is sort of foolish. getting the compression checked is a good idea though. it definitely can't hurt anything and at least it may set some of your doubts and anxieties aside. |
No offense diabolic. but do you have anything USEFUL to put in the thread? just going around and bashing others with nothing helpful is destructive not constructive.
BUT I will answer you possible troll questions anyway>> Timing dead on. idle mixture I have played with and it does nothing. how and where would I check for vacuum leaks that would cause the engine to die under 1500rpm? I did clearance the side seals to .03 inch each but I did .03 inch for the whole side seal not for each side of a side seal how will fine tuning help a compression problem? I'm trying to figure this out still and I need my care running like a week ago. the only way I can get it started is either push start(assuming as it works on totaled engines like mine prior to rebuild) or putting a quarter cup of oil down each sparkplug hole. In short I have done tons of troubleshooting I am OMW to pick up a compression tester now. but I am willing to make a heavy bet that it is going to read extremely poor compression and I am also certain a corner seal is #@$@#$ and not able to move freely. |
Originally Posted by flaco
(Post 11534901)
try some oil down the intake
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Originally Posted by anjhindul
(Post 11535038)
No offense diabolic. but do you have anything USEFUL to put in the thread? just going around and bashing others with nothing helpful is destructive not constructive.
BUT I will answer you possible troll questions anyway>> Timing dead on. idle mixture I have played with and it does nothing. how and where would I check for vacuum leaks that would cause the engine to die under 1500rpm? I did clearance the side seals to .03 inch each but I did .03 inch for the whole side seal not for each side of a side seal how will fine tuning help a compression problem? I'm trying to figure this out still and I need my care running like a week ago. the only way I can get it started is either push start(assuming as it works on totaled engines like mine prior to rebuild) or putting a quarter cup of oil down each sparkplug hole. In short I have done tons of troubleshooting I am OMW to pick up a compression tester now. but I am willing to make a heavy bet that it is going to read extremely poor compression and I am also certain a corner seal is #@$@#$ and not able to move freely. 2. in no way did I bash you. you went from not starting, to I screwed up the front pulley, to it's starting make attempts to start, to it won't go less than 1500 RPM, to "I guess I left the side seals too long ...", to OMG the corner seals are screwed and it has no compression below 1500 (but ONLY then ad it doesn't need apex seals to run above that anyway :)), to taking advice to pour oil down the intakes. 3. pay no attention to fact that prefaced my post by saying I meant no offense in questioning your scatter-brained rantings and logic. (and, yes, THIS time it was meant offensively). 4. "timing dead on. idle mixture does nothing." :lol: it's all good though. i'll cease to post useless advice to YOUR thread and i'll just focus on the fantastic job you've done so far. this is me moving on ... cheers. |
ok front rotor has 65 psi all 3 bumps per revolution.
rear rotor OMG 10 10 30 psi... ya I THINK I have a problem with the seals. Anyone have any USEFULL suggestions? I am doing search for the problem already but have yet to find anything useful IE "you don't need to take it apart" and "it sounds like you have a bad apex seal" is all I am getting |
Originally Posted by diabolical1
(Post 11535095)
1. go back to post 3
2. in no way did I bash you. you went from not starting, to I screwed up the front pulley, to it's starting make attempts to start, to it won't go less than 1500 RPM, to "I guess I left the side seals too long ...", to OMG the corner seals are screwed and it has no compression below 1500 (but ONLY then ad it doesn't need apex seals to run above that anyway :)), to taking advice to pour oil down the intakes. 3. pay no attention to fact that prefaced my post by saying I meant no offense in questioning your scatter-brained rantings and logic. (and, yes, THIS time it was meant offensively). 4. "timing dead on. idle mixture does nothing." :lol: it's all good though. i'll cease to post useless advice to YOUR thread and i'll just focus on the fantastic job you've done so far. this is me moving on ... cheers. "idle mixture does nothing" I mean changing it up or down at this point does not keep the engine running I was wrong and an apex seal is stuck OR 2 corner seals... not likely on the latter by what I have read |
Originally Posted by anjhindul
(Post 11535043)
you want me to put it in the primaries or secondary's? I have already done that twice to nothing happening but I did both at the same time. if you have any further information please share I am all ears.
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if the compression is that low, even on first crank and fire, something is wrong inside the engine and it needs to come back apart.
it sounds like it could be stuck side seals but the most common issue is mis-installed apex seal springs that get wedged under the end of the long seal and offer nothing for the assist piece which gets cocked. |
Originally Posted by flaco
(Post 11535158)
make sure is on timing first, crank it with spark plugs off make sure it gets cleaned up inside, clean the plugs , install them , the add atf or maybe something thicker like some light gear oil , then try start it , when it starts make sure you dont let it die .
I have already put some 30w oil in the engine to let it sit for 24 hours turning every 6-8 hopefully this concoction will release the seal/seals and let them move freely next if this doesnt work I will be trying for a pull start with a friend should I clear out the oil and replace with ATF? does the ATF work better? I read a couple posts said ATF can ruin the water jacket but most say it does only good. any other thoughts to try? |
Originally Posted by RotaryEvolution
(Post 11535200)
if the compression is that low, even on first crank and fire, something is wrong inside the engine and it needs to come back apart.
it sounds like it could be stuck side seals but the most common issue is mis-installed apex seal springs that get wedged under the end of the long seal and offer nothing for the assist piece which gets cocked. I have VERY similar results but your saying that it might be a spring is off the assist and no matter what I might have to tear the engine down? :( I will try the oil/ATF thing for today and if it doesnt run tomorrow I will tear down and see about fixing it hopefully in one day :) if so since it is only the rear rotor having any trouble would i be able to get away with NOT touching the front rotor? just remove the fly rear iron and redo the rear rotor apex seals/springs? being more careful with the assist pieces and springs? should I also double check my rotor side seals clearance? Well quadruple check now :uhh: would I need to replace any seals? I already replaced everything brand new corner apex/springs oil control/springs water jackets etc would I need to replace the water jackets or any of the oil rings on the housings/irons? |
I have a lot of experience with these cars. PM me ur number ill help.
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nononono dont let it sit with fluid . just do it quick . let it run and get to temperature then shut it off. try start it normally again and see what happens . ifit doesnt even try atleast abit to start then take it apart
Originally Posted by anjhindul
(Post 11535208)
how long will I need to keep it running for? an hour 30 minutes? it has less then a quarter tank of gas atm as when I had the catastrophic seal failure I was on my way to get gas...
I have already put some 30w oil in the engine to let it sit for 24 hours turning every 6-8 hopefully this concoction will release the seal/seals and let them move freely next if this doesnt work I will be trying for a pull start with a friend should I clear out the oil and replace with ATF? does the ATF work better? I read a couple posts said ATF can ruin the water jacket but most say it does only good. any other thoughts to try? |
flaco she does TRY to start but cant run without any coercing atm a seal is either stuck or not in right and im leaning on the first as I was VERY thorough in putting the seals in. But thank you for the comment I hope I wont need to rebuild already again :(
Anyways no one answered if I might be possibly ok with taking JUST the rear iron off and NOT touching the rest or if I really need to tear everything apart and reseal it all |
you could take it apart by clamping the front half of the engine together but i wouldn't recommend it if you are having issues with the engine after a rebuild.
it's the difference of a couple of hours versus a couple of days if there is still a problem in the front. |
Front compression is fine. rear compression is shot.
I just took the rear iron off shit got real when all 3 of the apex assists went flying all over the shop... found 2 of 3 :( cant figure out what happened to the 3rd SHIT kinda need that piece to... oh well so much for tear down and rebuild in a day with that kinda #$@# happening :( I got it out and apart in 2 hours... spent the next 3 looking for the apex assist any idea on what to do besides purchase another $200 set? BTW still looking but I cant think of anywhere else it could be |
OEM? if so you would need a single apex seal. if it's aftermarket try the seller and ask if they have any spares for sale.
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I had a thought... even though I swear I heard the piece hit the ground... maybe it fell into the water passageway. I checked with a flashlight and didnt see anything but I had stood the engine up. Any ideas on a way to check to make certain it ISNT in there without completely tearing the thing apart guys?
Thanks for the advice RotaryEvolution these are Atkins 2 piece seals I am using look identical to the ones I took out of the engine and I cant find anyone that sells them as a single though Atkins does sell the rounded apex seal tip. Anyone have any experience with them? my ORIGINAL rotors had the flat seals in them Mazdatrix says that the flat/round are not interchangeable... is this true? Atkins seems to think differently. and I want some more advice |
called Atkins they DO sell individual seals THANK GOD! and I completely disassembled the engine but the apex corner didn't fall into the water cooling system. going to rebuild it as soon as I get the new seal hope it doesn't still have compression issues on that rear rotor (not the front one either PLZ lol
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Finally got back to my engine I put the rear iron back on tightened it and shook the engine to try to hear if the missing APEX assist piece was inside the waterways and I didn't hear anything. would this piece could this piece cause any damage to the rest of the cooling system if it IS in the passageway?
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