Horizontal intercooler
11-26-02, 11:21 PM
#126
Originally posted by rotaryextreme
An IC generally needs much less air flowing through it than a radiator because a fluid (coolant) holds a lot more heat than air. You can tell by the heat coefficient of the material.
If you look at the position of the V Mount, the radiator still has more exposure to the air flow so you don't have to worry about over heating with the V mount radiator.
An IC generally needs much less air flowing through it than a radiator because a fluid (coolant) holds a lot more heat than air. You can tell by the heat coefficient of the material.
If you look at the position of the V Mount, the radiator still has more exposure to the air flow so you don't have to worry about over heating with the V mount radiator.
Of course, if it works in practice (and it sounds like it does), then that's what really matters. I do like the v-mount configuration, but I want AC (although, I rarely seem to use it).
11-27-02, 03:20 AM
#127
Lives on the Forum
Methinks, Chuck Huang's HMIC is the answer 
We just have to wait for his HMIC inlet/outlet ducts to arrive...
Say, Chuck what's the wait time on your cold air intake and battery miniaturization kit??
Might as well do a package deal eh?
We just have to wait for his HMIC inlet/outlet ducts to arrive...
Say, Chuck what's the wait time on your cold air intake and battery miniaturization kit??
Might as well do a package deal eh?
Last edited by SleepR1; 11-27-02 at 03:40 AM.
11-27-02, 04:16 AM
#128
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ENGLAND, UK
Posts: 524
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think some for you guy's under estimate the apexi kit.
The apexi has a unique design in that unlike other frount mounts it allows a lot more air through to the radiator than the other frountmounts do. Therefore you don't have a heating problem with the car. with the frount mounts we stand the radiator up and the air flows through the apexi intercooler to the radiator no problem. 85c is the highest water temp with stock rad we see with the apexi, The trust which I think is also called greddy had very similar results too, the best was a nissan skyline intercooler we tested on an rx7.
rgds
brian
The apexi has a unique design in that unlike other frount mounts it allows a lot more air through to the radiator than the other frountmounts do. Therefore you don't have a heating problem with the car. with the frount mounts we stand the radiator up and the air flows through the apexi intercooler to the radiator no problem. 85c is the highest water temp with stock rad we see with the apexi, The trust which I think is also called greddy had very similar results too, the best was a nissan skyline intercooler we tested on an rx7.
rgds
brian
11-27-02, 05:21 AM
#129
Lives on the Forum
Hey brian, have you tested the Apexi FMIC's effect on motor temps during an extended sprint race (30-minute enduro)? How has the motor temps faired with such a test? What were the ambient temps there in the UK? I know you must have driven Brands Hatch, or perhaps Silverstone with the Apexi-equipped FMIC and stock rad?
FWIW, I briefly considered the Apexi FMIC, with that delta fin core. I've read other posts echoing your remark about how the delta fin cores allow more air to pass through to the radiator, and minimizing the probability of overheating the motor?
How has the Apexi intake performed?
Am I just magnifying the overheating problem with FMIC's?
FWIW, I've not driven my car at 100 F ambient temps in Indiana. The hottest day I've had my car out on track was 95 F, and I overheated before the car did (stock IC/intake/radiator)
It seems that the Apexi comes as nice kit with an intake already included in the package? Rotary Performance (of Garland Tx) sells the Apex FMIC for $1650 complete with all the plumbing, couplers, clamps, and intake kit. I don't know if this is a good deal?
BTW, if I do go Apexi FMIC...I'd be using an oversized Koyo radiator with the FMIC. Does anyone see any fitment issues with the A/C condenser with the Koyo used in conjuction with the Apexi FMIC?
BTW, if I appear to be confused as to which type of IC to get, it's because I AM CONFUSED!
FWIW, I briefly considered the Apexi FMIC, with that delta fin core. I've read other posts echoing your remark about how the delta fin cores allow more air to pass through to the radiator, and minimizing the probability of overheating the motor?
How has the Apexi intake performed?
Am I just magnifying the overheating problem with FMIC's?
FWIW, I've not driven my car at 100 F ambient temps in Indiana. The hottest day I've had my car out on track was 95 F, and I overheated before the car did (stock IC/intake/radiator)
It seems that the Apexi comes as nice kit with an intake already included in the package? Rotary Performance (of Garland Tx) sells the Apex FMIC for $1650 complete with all the plumbing, couplers, clamps, and intake kit. I don't know if this is a good deal?
BTW, if I do go Apexi FMIC...I'd be using an oversized Koyo radiator with the FMIC. Does anyone see any fitment issues with the A/C condenser with the Koyo used in conjuction with the Apexi FMIC?
BTW, if I appear to be confused as to which type of IC to get, it's because I AM CONFUSED!
Last edited by SleepR1; 11-27-02 at 05:23 AM.
11-27-02, 09:37 AM
#131
Lives on the Forum
Chuck,
Do have any pics of the inlet duct you plan to use with the HMIC? I think the effectiveness of your HMIC will hinge on how well the inlet duct is designed! I'm one of the po folks who'll probably use your HMIC with the stock hood temporarily. I was thinking of removing the rubber gasket by the lower windshield cowl to allow more air to escape from the back of the stock hood???
Do have any pics of the inlet duct you plan to use with the HMIC? I think the effectiveness of your HMIC will hinge on how well the inlet duct is designed! I'm one of the po folks who'll probably use your HMIC with the stock hood temporarily. I was thinking of removing the rubber gasket by the lower windshield cowl to allow more air to escape from the back of the stock hood???
11-27-02, 09:49 AM
#132
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
iTrader: (2)
Like I said before, the air going through the opening of the bumper is determined by the speed of the car and also the frontal area of the opening and those do not change no matter how you mount the radiator or intercooler. So that's why you will use the center divider to determine how much air you want to go to the intercooler and how much to the radiator and you should be able to find that ratio very easily. I would say intercooler only needs about 20% of the air at the most.
If you look at the inlet duct of most SMIC, you will find it's about a 12"x3" opening. You can easily flow 2x, 3x of air through the V-Mount IC without taking much air from the radiator.
Another thing I want to point out is due to the position of the V-Mount Radiator, the air existing the radiator no longer blows to the IC. You can easily see this from the photos I posted. So the IC will not be heatsoaked by the radiator heat as much.
Chuck
If you look at the inlet duct of most SMIC, you will find it's about a 12"x3" opening. You can easily flow 2x, 3x of air through the V-Mount IC without taking much air from the radiator.
Another thing I want to point out is due to the position of the V-Mount Radiator, the air existing the radiator no longer blows to the IC. You can easily see this from the photos I posted. So the IC will not be heatsoaked by the radiator heat as much.
Chuck
Originally posted by johnchabin
My concern with the v-mount is, as you pointed out, the IC needs less air flowing through it. With the stock fans and mounted at an angle, I wonder if the radiator can afford to give up the limited available air and share so much of it with the IC. The stock set-up steals less of the radiator's air, as the IC is ducted and thus air flow is controlled.
Of course, if it works in practice (and it sounds like it does), then that's what really matters. I do like the v-mount configuration, but I want AC (although, I rarely seem to use it).
My concern with the v-mount is, as you pointed out, the IC needs less air flowing through it. With the stock fans and mounted at an angle, I wonder if the radiator can afford to give up the limited available air and share so much of it with the IC. The stock set-up steals less of the radiator's air, as the IC is ducted and thus air flow is controlled.
Of course, if it works in practice (and it sounds like it does), then that's what really matters. I do like the v-mount configuration, but I want AC (although, I rarely seem to use it).
11-27-02, 10:44 AM
#133
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
iTrader: (2)
Cold air intake about 2 weeks. Battery miniaturization kit about 2 weeks too.
HMIC ducts unknown at this time.
Package deal will be added to my website after everything is finished.
Chuck
http://www.rotaryextreme.com
HMIC ducts unknown at this time.
Package deal will be added to my website after everything is finished.
Chuck
http://www.rotaryextreme.com
Originally posted by SleepR1
Methinks, Chuck Huang's HMIC is the answer
We just have to wait for his HMIC inlet/outlet ducts to arrive...
Say, Chuck what's the wait time on your cold air intake and battery miniaturization kit??
Might as well do a package deal eh?
Methinks, Chuck Huang's HMIC is the answer
We just have to wait for his HMIC inlet/outlet ducts to arrive...
Say, Chuck what's the wait time on your cold air intake and battery miniaturization kit??
Might as well do a package deal eh?
11-27-02, 10:53 AM
#134
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
iTrader: (2)
All I can say right now about the inlet duct is that the air passage inside is very short so you will not lose a lot of air speed. I don't think removing the winshield cowl is necesary. There is plenty of space between the hood and the IC unlike the SR HMIC.
This is the prototype pic. The one you get will come polished and looks much nicer.
Chuck
http://www.rotaryextreme.com
This is the prototype pic. The one you get will come polished and looks much nicer.
Chuck
http://www.rotaryextreme.com
Originally posted by SleepR1
Chuck,
Do have any pics of the inlet duct you plan to use with the HMIC? I think the effectiveness of your HMIC will hinge on how well the inlet duct is designed! I'm one of the po folks who'll probably use your HMIC with the stock hood temporarily. I was thinking of removing the rubber gasket by the lower windshield cowl to allow more air to escape from the back of the stock hood???
Chuck,
Do have any pics of the inlet duct you plan to use with the HMIC? I think the effectiveness of your HMIC will hinge on how well the inlet duct is designed! I'm one of the po folks who'll probably use your HMIC with the stock hood temporarily. I was thinking of removing the rubber gasket by the lower windshield cowl to allow more air to escape from the back of the stock hood???
11-27-02, 10:54 AM
#135
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
iTrader: (2)
Originally posted by SleepR1
Chuck,
Do have any pics of the inlet duct you plan to use with the HMIC? I think the effectiveness of your HMIC will hinge on how well the inlet duct is designed! I'm one of the po folks who'll probably use your HMIC with the stock hood temporarily. I was thinking of removing the rubber gasket by the lower windshield cowl to allow more air to escape from the back of the stock hood???
Chuck,
Do have any pics of the inlet duct you plan to use with the HMIC? I think the effectiveness of your HMIC will hinge on how well the inlet duct is designed! I'm one of the po folks who'll probably use your HMIC with the stock hood temporarily. I was thinking of removing the rubber gasket by the lower windshield cowl to allow more air to escape from the back of the stock hood???
11-28-02, 01:15 AM
#138
Just make sure you guys don't think you're getting away with talking about this without my opinions repeated constantly. I'm moving so I don't have time to flame about it. I'll get back to the arguments next week.
Kevin T. Wyum
Kevin T. Wyum
01-02-03, 10:19 PM
#143
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Sebring, FL
Posts: 548
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Other projects have kept me from working on it. I JUST finished building a nice battery tray so I can relocate my battery tomorrow. If I had the intercooler with me where I am now, I could probably get a LOT done on it then, but I didn't bring it with me. Oh well, the battery relocation is one step closer.
01-03-03, 03:23 PM
#145
Photo Diety
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Throwing in a few things, I too have seen the passenger's side piping of the M2 medium pop off repeatedly on a friend's road race car. It's ruined a day of track time for him in the past. I will try and get specifics as to whether or not there was a bead at the end of the pipe, etc...
I had problems with the CWR kit for a bit as well but managed to solve it without much effort. Some of it came down to the actual connectors themselves. I switch to new connectors from Hose Techniques and they seemed to be a bit more rugged and were much stickier, meaning it was a PITA to slide them on and off, unlike the CWR's original couplers. All the piping had beading too. The most problematic was the connection to the Y-pipe. A strut tower bar solved that one for me :-)
As for the ASP duct, IMHO, of all the ducts I've seen for largish stock mount type setups (PFS, Pettit, M2, CWR), the ORIGINAL ASP duct which was on Jim O'Brien's car in Florida (T78 maroon w/stripes, then sold to Brad Barber) looked to be the best in design. Why? Look through any of the other ducts and you see maybe 3 to 4 IC rows. Look through the ASP duct and you see twice that amount with the same initial inlet size.
My experiences with the CWR IC, which is larger than the M2 Medium and Large, was that the large duct did cause some airflow restriction and I ran a few degrees hotter with it. I cannot say whether this is true with the M2 or any other unit, but it would make sense that they're somewhat similar.
I have no doubt in my mind that any of the road race cars from the best tuning shops in Japan would school any of the road race cars from shops here in the states (which really only is what, two cars, Pettit and M2). Just based on the competition theory alone, I'm sure they're light years ahead of us. Or at least a few car lengths! I'd be willing to bet that the Axia, RE-A, or Panspeed car would really put a job over on M2's World Cup car. Granted, the rules are different, but provided the opportunity to switch M2's car to a single turbo and then run, I still think it would fall somewhat behind. There are dozens of shops with cars of M2's caliber over in Japan and they're consistently 3-5 seconds slower per lap than the three fastest FDs. Not to mention that there are several race series that continue to feature the FD. They race every week, not 2 times a season.
Anyway, Kevin does bring up some interesting points and I do applaud Chuck for his R&D efforts and in trying to bring us new, quality products. It's good to be an RX7 owner, no?
Michel
I had problems with the CWR kit for a bit as well but managed to solve it without much effort. Some of it came down to the actual connectors themselves. I switch to new connectors from Hose Techniques and they seemed to be a bit more rugged and were much stickier, meaning it was a PITA to slide them on and off, unlike the CWR's original couplers. All the piping had beading too. The most problematic was the connection to the Y-pipe. A strut tower bar solved that one for me :-)
As for the ASP duct, IMHO, of all the ducts I've seen for largish stock mount type setups (PFS, Pettit, M2, CWR), the ORIGINAL ASP duct which was on Jim O'Brien's car in Florida (T78 maroon w/stripes, then sold to Brad Barber) looked to be the best in design. Why? Look through any of the other ducts and you see maybe 3 to 4 IC rows. Look through the ASP duct and you see twice that amount with the same initial inlet size.
My experiences with the CWR IC, which is larger than the M2 Medium and Large, was that the large duct did cause some airflow restriction and I ran a few degrees hotter with it. I cannot say whether this is true with the M2 or any other unit, but it would make sense that they're somewhat similar.
I have no doubt in my mind that any of the road race cars from the best tuning shops in Japan would school any of the road race cars from shops here in the states (which really only is what, two cars, Pettit and M2). Just based on the competition theory alone, I'm sure they're light years ahead of us. Or at least a few car lengths! I'd be willing to bet that the Axia, RE-A, or Panspeed car would really put a job over on M2's World Cup car. Granted, the rules are different, but provided the opportunity to switch M2's car to a single turbo and then run, I still think it would fall somewhat behind. There are dozens of shops with cars of M2's caliber over in Japan and they're consistently 3-5 seconds slower per lap than the three fastest FDs. Not to mention that there are several race series that continue to feature the FD. They race every week, not 2 times a season.
Anyway, Kevin does bring up some interesting points and I do applaud Chuck for his R&D efforts and in trying to bring us new, quality products. It's good to be an RX7 owner, no?
Michel
01-03-03, 04:53 PM
#146
13Bfiscalirresponsibility
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Hell and loving it
Posts: 189
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem with the M2 IC is the pipe coming from the turbos. That 90 degree bend from the turbos is just too tight and short. Yes they can get a decent bead on it but there isn't sufficient space for the coupler to sit properly. Nor is there enough room for the clamp to sit far enough above the bead. The only way to fit a pipe properly would be to use a cast piece.
Hey Chuck, so no idea on a time for the HMIC? I've been checking your website every other day since July.
Hey Chuck, so no idea on a time for the HMIC? I've been checking your website every other day since July.
01-04-03, 09:05 PM
#148
Custom User Title**
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have the SR unfinished HMIC as well......i've *almost* finished the install and ducting to mine. As soon as the engine is back in the car... I can do the final fitment and install. I'm very happy w/ what i've worked out so far, but will know for sure after the car is running again.I'll post pics then......
FWIW...i have a vented hood.
FWIW...i have a vented hood.
01-05-03, 02:16 AM
#149
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Sebring, FL
Posts: 548
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by silver3rdgen
I have the SR unfinished HMIC as well......i've *almost* finished the install and ducting to mine. As soon as the engine is back in the car... I can do the final fitment and install. I'm very happy w/ what i've worked out so far, but will know for sure after the car is running again.I'll post pics then......
FWIW...i have a vented hood.
I have the SR unfinished HMIC as well......i've *almost* finished the install and ducting to mine. As soon as the engine is back in the car... I can do the final fitment and install. I'm very happy w/ what i've worked out so far, but will know for sure after the car is running again.I'll post pics then......
FWIW...i have a vented hood.
Ryan
01-05-03, 11:47 AM
#150
Custom User Title**
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the first duct will be aluminum........When my buddy at the fab-shop's busiiness slows down alittle, he's gonna do a carbon fiber version. We are also planning to build an upper duct that seals it to the hood vent.