Another one bites the Hayes (dust)
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 15,725
Likes: 91
From: Near Seattle
Another one bites the Hayes (dust)
Get it? Dust? Haze? lol
This is a Hayes rebuild. Streetported, with a stock Nikki. It ran a little lean it looks like. The PO said the oil line blew off when she was reving it for some friends (showing off) while it was cold. I believe it because there was oil everywhere. Up between the radiator and the radiator mount, fan shroud, every other nook and crannie in the front of the engine bay. What a mess.
But that's not what killed the engine. When I pulled the oil pan off, the pickup tube was just sitting there. Swimming in the oil. You can clearly see all the metal bits. Freaking Hayes. Has that ever happened to any of your engines? It's never happened to any of mine.
What's even more annoying about this engine was the 19mm bolt. I tried heat, impact gun, yelling at it, more heat. Nothing worked. So I grabbed the hole saw witht he broken bit and had at it. A few minutes and lots of shavings later, it finally unscrewed like a correctly torqued one. Freaking Hayes.
All the side plates, rotors, bearings, shaft, stationary gears were dead. Even the rotor housings had some funny wear from running without oil. Oops, I don't have a picture. I'll snap one or two later today.
All the soft seals were replaced and 6 side seals. Some of the corner seals were pretty shabby and replaced too. Fortunately the apex seals looks rather nice, and the springs still had some lift. I grabbed a set of decent side plates off the shelf and a friend brought over another rotating assembly and two rotor housings. One gasket set, front + rear seals and oil o-rings, and a little time and patience added up to a nice looking 12A.
We threw it in the REPU and transported it down to the shop.
It's in its new home now and runs great. It's got over a hundred miles on it now. It's nice and smooth and fires right up. No smoke.
Ah, no pic. I'll get one later.
This is a Hayes rebuild. Streetported, with a stock Nikki. It ran a little lean it looks like. The PO said the oil line blew off when she was reving it for some friends (showing off) while it was cold. I believe it because there was oil everywhere. Up between the radiator and the radiator mount, fan shroud, every other nook and crannie in the front of the engine bay. What a mess.
But that's not what killed the engine. When I pulled the oil pan off, the pickup tube was just sitting there. Swimming in the oil. You can clearly see all the metal bits. Freaking Hayes. Has that ever happened to any of your engines? It's never happened to any of mine.
What's even more annoying about this engine was the 19mm bolt. I tried heat, impact gun, yelling at it, more heat. Nothing worked. So I grabbed the hole saw witht he broken bit and had at it. A few minutes and lots of shavings later, it finally unscrewed like a correctly torqued one. Freaking Hayes.
All the side plates, rotors, bearings, shaft, stationary gears were dead. Even the rotor housings had some funny wear from running without oil. Oops, I don't have a picture. I'll snap one or two later today.
All the soft seals were replaced and 6 side seals. Some of the corner seals were pretty shabby and replaced too. Fortunately the apex seals looks rather nice, and the springs still had some lift. I grabbed a set of decent side plates off the shelf and a friend brought over another rotating assembly and two rotor housings. One gasket set, front + rear seals and oil o-rings, and a little time and patience added up to a nice looking 12A.
We threw it in the REPU and transported it down to the shop.
It's in its new home now and runs great. It's got over a hundred miles on it now. It's nice and smooth and fires right up. No smoke.
Ah, no pic. I'll get one later.
I have a hayes rebuild in mine. I put over 20k miles (not sure how many previous owner has on it) and three years of daily redline driving. I have the only good engine they touched, but yeah never heard anything good about there work.
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Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 15,725
Likes: 91
From: Near Seattle
The mushroomed shaft, which I had to hit to to get the front plate off. The side seals are welded into the rotor. 
Here's the only shot of the bearing still on the shaft.
And this is after I cut it with the dremel and chisseled it off.
Heh.
Here's the only shot of the bearing still on the shaft.
And this is after I cut it with the dremel and chisseled it off.
Heh.
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 244
Likes: 1
From: baltimore maryland
I have a hayes built 13B.
It may only have just a few miles on it that I put on it ( 2 miles)and plenty of rotations to try to get it started (I wore down a new battery and used ether {starting fluid in a dellorto carb} . I got this 13B from a previous owner who may never had gotten it to run. it is installed in a 79 rx7 where I transplanted this engine in place of a frozen 12a ( the previous owner let it run out of oil ( two different previous owners). So I had never driven this 79 rx7 before and had assumed the clutch and trany were at least drivable. as the cars previous owner said the car was taken out for a weekly spin when the engine died on the highway.
I found that I had to start the car with clutch down to floor and trany in 1st gear otherwise once engine had started I could not get the trany into 1st - it would not budge.
Prior to all this I noticed a tightness to the rotation of the engine off the front pully - harmonic balancer when I turned the e-shart with my ratchet for initial set up. all of my other engines have high milage 130 - 170 k miles on them and are much easier to turn. I thought, is this how tight a fresh engine should feel or is there something wrong inside. I called hayes and they said this was normal.
enough of the history
1. how do I figure out if there is excessive internal engine friction in the 13B or if this is the normal feel the engine should have or
2. am I while also starting the engine also turning the clutch that is almost but not completely fully disengaged off the flywheel and is turning trany parts too and that is where I am getting this feel from. But I do remember I could not turn the front e-shaft by hand when the engine was out and on a bench.
when the engine starts it sounds like there is more exhaust compression poping into the header but this is a two stage street port engine and it is the only car I have with a header on it.
looking for sound measurable tests as well as some subjective thoughts
not so easy is to pull the engine and see how it turns would rather approach from a different angle first
thought of adjusting the push rod off clutch pedal to disengage clutch more.
dont want to hijack this post just thought the issue was very much related and best fit here rather than in separate post
watch out for radar!!!!!!!!!!!!!
make it a great summer
It may only have just a few miles on it that I put on it ( 2 miles)and plenty of rotations to try to get it started (I wore down a new battery and used ether {starting fluid in a dellorto carb} . I got this 13B from a previous owner who may never had gotten it to run. it is installed in a 79 rx7 where I transplanted this engine in place of a frozen 12a ( the previous owner let it run out of oil ( two different previous owners). So I had never driven this 79 rx7 before and had assumed the clutch and trany were at least drivable. as the cars previous owner said the car was taken out for a weekly spin when the engine died on the highway.
I found that I had to start the car with clutch down to floor and trany in 1st gear otherwise once engine had started I could not get the trany into 1st - it would not budge.
Prior to all this I noticed a tightness to the rotation of the engine off the front pully - harmonic balancer when I turned the e-shart with my ratchet for initial set up. all of my other engines have high milage 130 - 170 k miles on them and are much easier to turn. I thought, is this how tight a fresh engine should feel or is there something wrong inside. I called hayes and they said this was normal.
enough of the history
1. how do I figure out if there is excessive internal engine friction in the 13B or if this is the normal feel the engine should have or
2. am I while also starting the engine also turning the clutch that is almost but not completely fully disengaged off the flywheel and is turning trany parts too and that is where I am getting this feel from. But I do remember I could not turn the front e-shaft by hand when the engine was out and on a bench.
when the engine starts it sounds like there is more exhaust compression poping into the header but this is a two stage street port engine and it is the only car I have with a header on it.
looking for sound measurable tests as well as some subjective thoughts
not so easy is to pull the engine and see how it turns would rather approach from a different angle first
thought of adjusting the push rod off clutch pedal to disengage clutch more.
dont want to hijack this post just thought the issue was very much related and best fit here rather than in separate post
watch out for radar!!!!!!!!!!!!!
make it a great summer
interesting u mention about the front hub bolt, i had a bad hayes engine ( spun a bearing after about 30K)
and the front hub bolt was a BITTTTCHHHHH to get off as well, plenty more so than any other engine ive torn down haha.
and the front hub bolt was a BITTTTCHHHHH to get off as well, plenty more so than any other engine ive torn down haha.
Rotary Freak
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,817
Likes: 16
From: South Carolina
My experience with all thing cars, boats, camera, everything...
... is that almost nobody has a care for quality, reputation, or customer retention.
Most people who repair anything seem to have the attitude that if it is mechanical, all I have to do is to put something together that will last long enough to satisfy the warranty. Some don't even do that because they figure a lot of people who are doing repairs are doing it so they can sell the beast; then they don't have to worry about it at all.
I think it would be a good idea if we created a database table here (not a freeform thread that can be filled with garbage - but a true searchable/reportable database table) that anyone who buys/rebuilds an engine can access.
In it, I would create a main key using the engine block number (if there is such a thing), and also list:
Then we could actually keep statistics on what engines go p*p, and why. Who makes engines that last the longest, and who makes engines that last only a few months. This way, we could start to police the market and get rid of bad builders.
... is that almost nobody has a care for quality, reputation, or customer retention.
Most people who repair anything seem to have the attitude that if it is mechanical, all I have to do is to put something together that will last long enough to satisfy the warranty. Some don't even do that because they figure a lot of people who are doing repairs are doing it so they can sell the beast; then they don't have to worry about it at all.
I think it would be a good idea if we created a database table here (not a freeform thread that can be filled with garbage - but a true searchable/reportable database table) that anyone who buys/rebuilds an engine can access.
In it, I would create a main key using the engine block number (if there is such a thing), and also list:
- the date it was purchased
- the car it goes into
- the symptoms that were present when the engine failed
- who the engine was rebuilt by/purchased from
- how many miles on the car when the engine went in
- how the engine is used; track, street race, dd, various
- engine parts conditions (if known)
- the date it fails (hopefully never)
- the response of the seller/rebuilder as far as warranty being honored
- the diagnosed reason the rebuild failed
- comments from the builder (because most stories have two sides)
- etc...
Then we could actually keep statistics on what engines go p*p, and why. Who makes engines that last the longest, and who makes engines that last only a few months. This way, we could start to police the market and get rid of bad builders.
I need a new user title
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,646
Likes: 1
From: Yaizu, Japan