Water vs Methanol - RWHP Info
 

I'd like some more info on water vs methanol. I'm not too concerned about cooling at this point, I'm more concerned about HP data. Has anyone dynoed with water and then swapped over to methanol, if yes can you please share your results.

Also, for those running 100% methanol, how much fuel did you have to pull out of your map to compensate for the additional fuel?

Real dyno numbers would help but I know most don't have access to a dyno so I guess the butt dyno will do!.

I will be swapping over to 100% methanol. I started with 100% water, moved to 50/50 and now going to 100% methanol. I'll be on the dyno again with E85 and methanol and I'm hoping I will not have to pull too much fuel out of the map.

Last year with C16 and a 50/50 mix I had no issues, car ran great and made good MPH. I swapped over to E85 last year and was on the dyno recently but with the 50/50 mix I am losing HP. I just used it for cooling so i was not too concerned so I stopped injecting anything and the HP went back up. I think I am injecting too much water/meth. I wonder if it is because I had the 50/50 mix all winter in the car so I might just drain it and start with a new mix. I'll be back on the dyno with E85 and 100% methanol in a week or two, I'll post the results.

Thanks,

Anthony

hey anthony i'm about to do the same on a customer's car, well not exactly, i planned on using denatured alcohol figured it's a little cheaper. on the meth note, i did see a guy dynoed his car with 100% meth and lost power, i wasn't too sure of his tuning abilitied though. this was on a SER(nissan).

Not sure how this works with E85, but the reason I use 50/50 is for intake cooling benefit and knock deterrent.

I've used both 100% water and 100% meth... I can actually tell a HUGE difference in performance with 50/50 for the better. That's only on the butt dyno tho... sorry for no data, although, I may have some maps that show AITs... I'll have to check.

i don't understand running AI 100% methanol (alcohol) w E85. why not just add additional injectors to your base fuel setup. it would be simpler and perhaps less prone to malfunction.

you are constructiong an additional fuel system to add more of what your base fuel system is injecting.

i love alcohol. it has a number of advantages over any gasoline iteration. it does however contain about half the BTUs (energy) of gasoline. so you need lots and lots of injectors.

i know of a 1000+ rwhp 2 rotor setup that is using 14 1600 injectors.

you pose a very interesting fundamental question... hp between water and alcohol. there are many on both sides of the issue. some say if water is used correctly you can turn up the boost to really high levels. generally they run 7 degrees of IGL and very rich AFRs.

others (myself included) LOVE alcohol. i have moved from 90% duty (850/1600) no AI to 73% duty using about 1300 CC/Min of meth. the engine loves it. no knock. 13 degrees IGL w 11 split. low 11 AFR. 498 rwhp SAE w stock port timing around 18 psi. out of wastegate spring.

back on dyno this monday w 1460 CC/Min, stiffer wastegate springrate, 22 degrees more intake timing fresh motor.

i doubt the fact that the mix sat around caused your hp loss. did you add alot of injector capacity when you switched to E85? AFRs, Timing?

hc

Nice, let us know the results. Nice seeing you again stranger.


I've been seeing the same thing.

The lower I get the intake temps, the better it is all around. I am also running E70 which is our winter blend in the NE for E85. Once I am on full E85, I'll probably lower the amount of methanol being injected but I can't see a reason not to, can you? When you mentioned less prone to malfunction, I think most of the guys running 100% meth with pump are in the same boat, if they lose their meth delivery, motor is toast.

I have 2 more injectors to install on the GZ manifold but curious to see how E85 and methanol mesh. I'm measuring HP, torque, intake temps, air fuels etc and as soon as I have my EGTs working again, I'll have some good data to compare.

I had 100% water, swapped to 50/50 and now 100% methanol. I run high 10s and very low 11's (air fuel). With water at those air fuels, I lost HP. With the 50/50 I kept the same HP. Too soon to say on the 100% methanol since I did not lean it out, I'm still in the low 10s.

Do you know why they ran such a low leading timing? My car likes 16-18 deg. I've gone up as far as 22 deg leading advance on 30psi and as low 10, best area for my particular setup is 18deg on C16 and 16 deg on E85. 10-12 deg split.

For now I just have to 4x1680 cc's and that is running 92% duty cycle at 28-30 psi. I added some methanol but left the setup alone so the AF's are in the low 10s now. I only pull fuel out at the track so we'll see how she does. I run the same air fuels. Some say richer is better with E85 and some say leaner is better.

Anthony

Welcome to the yet fully unexplored world of AI, Anthony. :)

B

Now known as AI-85

Anthony,

Howard is right.. What are you trying to gain with running water?
Your already running alcohol. i Would run 100% meth since that will add better cooling then ethanol. What he means by less prone to malfuction is your meth will become an additional fuel source. IF that for some reason decides to not work you just removed a fuel supply from your engine.. This could be a problem :)

ideally running all your fuel from injectors thru your ecu will be the best way...

Water is for guys who are running pump fuel..

I run E85, and run AI because I'm not running a intercooler. Which is best, 100% Methanol or Water?

I don't have any dyno numbers between AI on or off yet, because in the past I've always just left the system on the entire time.

I can tell you though, that stylemon is certainly right about 50/50 being the best. Anthony seems to agree as well. Its much easier to burn than straight water (which doesn't burn :lol:) you get the superior cooling of meth, with the knock supression of water. Best of both worlds! My car likes a mix more then it does straight H20, but I run water anyways because it suits my needs and there's always some around :)

With water last year more tuning was involved, with 50/50, I turned it on and didn't even know it was on, with methanol aside from the car running richer, it was pretty easy too.


With 100% meth depending on your nozzles you will have to pull fuel out of your E85 map and if it fails like Enzo and Howard noted you will be up the creek. You're going on a dyno soon so play around.


I'm not running water, last year was running the 50/50 and now 100% methanol but I read from Rice Racing and a few AUS guys that they are making X amount of more power with water so I wanted to see if they would respond on the water side. With my setup, I didn't pull fuel out with the meth, I tuned on E85 alone and then turned on the meth. AFs got rich and I left it alone but I understand what you're saying if I pulled fuel out.

Why would you need knock supression when running alcohol as your primary fuel source?
Also you do know that water doesn't provide any energy so where would you get your power from?
Last time i checked alcohol funny cars don't burn water for more power. They mix nitro into there alcohol. :)

water injection, water/meth, etc, etc is for guys who are running pump fuel and need the knock supression/cooling effects..

Meth.

How much hp did you gain by switching the AI off when you were on e85?

Almost 40 because the air fuels went rich. Can you share some of your experience with water only?

Thanks for the reply, both here and the drag forum.

I was stating what I found, and I run regular dinosaur carcasses. No corn for this fella.

Wasn't saying you need it with ethanol as your base fuel, just what I found on reg. pump which is the car responded best (minimal tuning when its on) to 50/50.

Does nitro provide any cooling? maybe I'll try spraying some of that next week..

That's what i'm trying to say.. 50/50 is good for pump fuel..
This car is already running ethanol. Water is not going to do any good.
There's no reason to be adding that in..

It sure does.. Although i probably wouldn't experiment with that on your engine since your already worried about the rear plate :)

Stick to the meth...

I think that is what this whole thread is about, finding data to show/prove this...

The OP is running e85 and whats data on the difference between 50/50 and 100% meth.

If your running e85.

Water will come into play around 35+psi.
I have tuned a car to 45psi with e85.

And over 35psi knock got a little out of control.
We setup a small water injection system on their with a 550cc jet and were able to bring the knock right back with around 5hp loss on 35psi.

But remember. the above is only a small amount of water for the volume of e85 going through. But it did the trick.

For anything under 30psi. Adding AI with e85 is a waste of time.

Pump fuel is a completely different story.

I would like to know. When people are installing AI what are they looking to reduce?

EGTs? or knock?
When i do it. I looking to reduce knock mostly. EGTs to come down. BUT KNOCK is what kills engines.
You can have low egts such 1500F and still blow an engine to bits.

And if your adding water to your enigne and your loosing 20+hp. Your ignition is shit or your simply adding too much water.
And lots of the ignition systems people are using are crappy.

Great post rx72c.

B

Scenario: 12A planning on running low boost (<15psi), no intercooler, using E85 - was planning on pre- and post- turbo AI w/ water to reduce IAT. Comments? AI is pretty much installed, first startup will be very soon.

RX72c, what do you (and any others please comment as well) think an FD can be tuned/boosted upto running a properly set-up motor on straight water inj. on 93oct. pump fuel. I want a reliable 26PSI daily driver (~550rwhp) on pump and AI... is that redily possible in your opinion based on what you've seen on water inj. ?

For that much boost, personally, Id use meth.

I'm at 20 psi with preturbo water and no knock. I plan to go a few more psi soon. Maybe with a max of around 25 psi. Based on the results i've been having, i think 26 psi is quite attainable for a daily driven car on pump gas.

Appreciate the feedback, what nozzle sizing are you using for your particular setup? (and what turbo, power level r u making at 20lbs) Also, what ignition? Thanks a million :)

to viper gtsr

26psi can be done with water injection.

The best off the shelf kit i have seen that dosnt need much tweaking is the Rice Racing kit. I know much people dont like him. but his wi kit is good.

the coolingmist kits are great. But you need to know what your doing to get them to work.
If your using coolingmist kit.

Get a 750 or 900cc jet.
Youll find it will want around 700cc of water around that boost without loosing too much hp but your egts will be good and knock levels will be excellent.

Thanks mate! Yes, i was thinking of picking up the coolingmist but i'll surely give the rice racing one a good look now at ur suggestion. What ignition do you suggest i run to fire thru 700cc's of water without going overkill on the ignition.. ? (BTW; my idea is to just have one ~750cc nozzle preturbo then...do u concur with this for my goal?)


PS; goal is for this vehicle will be daily driven @20+lbs with race boost set to 26lbs* (all on 93oct.) :D

Ya know, I was thinkin' last night, once I get my setup rebuilt on my Turbo II I am considering doing back-to-back test at (x) boost with 100% alcohol and 50/50 to see the changes in AFR's and EGT's.

B

This is an interesting point -- it begs the question, what exactly is it that's causing knock in the first place if it's not a chamber temp issue?

B

I'm using an air atomizing nozzle on a mechanical setup similar to rice racing's kit. I drilled it out to flow 500cc at 20 psi. At higher psi's it flows more. I'm running a masterpower t70 with large street port, twin power, stock coils, and greddy race plugs. No dyno numbers yet as its all street tuned, but i'm guessing close to 500.

Viper gtsr

i have had great success with the CRane cdi hi-6 with lx92 coil packs. You buy 2 sets of boxes and coils and run them direct fire on L1 and L2.

BDC.
I am not mech engineer so i dont know the exact science as to why engines can run cool inside and still grenade them selves. The only thing that makes sense in my mind, is the high boost on low octane fuel causes heat spots in the combustion chamber which EGT dosnt pick up, and these heat spots are what cause pre ignition. Again in this regard i could completely be wrong.

But one thing i am certain of. When we first start playing wi, had a few cars that lost their wi while racing, and very very very quickly destroyed engine, and after checking logs, EGTs were under 1650F and afrs were in the high 10s. when we initially looked it we were shocked, and couldnt figure it out, around 10 minutes later i noticed the eboost had lost its map signal line and this is what we were using to trigger wi.

I hope that makes sense.

just returned from a day at the dyno (23 pulls).

93 pump and methanol at approx 20-21 psi 506 rwhp SAE. details and sheet to follow. we quit as the actuators ran out of spring. i will be changing the spring out to a 19 pound item and also will need to extend my N line as there's lots of more RPM in the motor.

howard coleman

Nice. Why is the boost so low?

19 pound is low.
Why no 30psi.

"Why is the boost so low?

19 pound is low.
Why no 30psi."

perhaps i didn't make myself clear w the following....

"we quit as the actuators ran out of spring. i will be changing the spring out to a 19 pound item"

the actuator spring functions similarly to an external wastegate spring. i am running new AGP modular actuators that allow for spring change. this session was the first w the new actuators and i was running a 15 pound spring. spring ratings deliver different results based on the setup. mine actually delivered only 13 psi w the boost controller off.

i do have a set of "19" pound springs and will change them out for another go. my two Garrett TO4E 46 trims make max air at 27 psi which should deliver 84 pounds per minute and 630 rwhp tuned out.

we will see.

hc

What kind of boost response are you seeing with those turbos?