Water/Meth mixture inquiry
 

[Current Setup] I currently have a coolingmist duel stage AI system in my 3rd gen, with two solenoids that control activation. One injector is larger then the other, and flows more. Injectors are mounted right after my intercooler about 12" from the throttle plates.

I have spent a lot of time reading this forum, as well as some of the other references posted in the stickies. I am still a little fuzzy on a few issues though, and am seeking clarity!

The initial purpose of the system was to inject water as a safety net from 12-15psi (each stage respectively) on pump gas, and the system would not be "tuned up".

When running straight water, albeit the power loss, I have been very happy with the results. I don't have an EGT, but my intake temps do drop under AI activation and part of me just feels good knowing that even at 13-15 pounds (which is probably very safe with my tune) additional heat is being soaked up adding another protection against detonation.

I know that adding straight water, as a general rule, will offer the greatest cooling effect of the AI mixes, while also reducing power. GooRoo performed some tests with his AI system on the dyno, one run without water, and then one run with water, with all over variables the same. With his GT-35r he lost 15hp at 9psi and about 20-25hp at 14-15psi. (Dropped from 390 to 365-370)

I know also know that adding methanol, as a general rule, will offer less cooling effect then water, but offer more power, because it is a fuel, and will burn with an octane rating of 118 or so.

Now, as an AI system user, who is not quite ready to "tune up"... I want to find a balance between water and methanol that will give me the benefits of cooling, but also minimize the hp loss from injecting a non-combustible agent such as water.

My question is the following:

Is there a mix of methanol and water that I can put into my AI system, that would provide detonation safeguards, but also not decrease the HP I would see if the AI system was inactive?

I'm curious if there is a mixture I can just dump on top of my map, which is a Kan tuned 11.5 across the range, which will not compromise power.

Would a 25/75 or 50/50 water/meth accomplish this?

I hope this makes sense.

Looking forward to next season!

-R4tw

Not all vehicles lose power from running 100% or methanol..Infact if you run 100% or 100% water your vehicle CAN lose power. Some vehicles have a computer that advances timing due to the colder temps and some gains are made. Either way...the biggest gains you can make are tuning your vehicle, but that leaves you with the problems of relying on the system.

you will hear alot of opinions and this thread will end up like all the others, but in my opinion nothing beats 100% water for detonation supression. When given a choice I prefer to run a 50/50 mix of methanol/water. i would run 100% water before I would run 100% methanol.

Probably not the answer you were looking for, but atleast my 3 and a 1/2 cents.

i think the pissing contest is finally over.

i run a 50% methanol mix with 50% distilled water and i don't feel any real HP losses but you seem to get the best of both worlds however if you tune for the methanol and have inconsistencies it will be much worse than if your WI only fails. to me the benefits seem to outweigh the cons but it all depends if you trust your work and your AI system.

i did not take any numbers with the AI off and with it on but that is an interesting note that i am interested now in finding out if i am losing HP or gaining any with my setup.

after re-reading i noticed you want to just add on an AI and not touch the tuned map is that correct?

if so you would be better off going with water as any mixture of methanol would need to be leaned out. unlike water it has to be burned or it will affect the AFRs and cause you to lose power if it is not retuned for the new mixtures. or if you can you could use the 50% mix and have the car retuned.

R4tw,

Unless your intake temps are really high, I don't think you're going to be able to achieve what your asking without doing a retune. I know the area you're coming from, I can recommend a few people to help you readjust your maps. What efi system are you using? The power benefits of ANY form of AI need a retune, and a retune for that certain injection.

As I previously posted, water DOES cool better then meth OR alchy, hoever, you can inject MORE of the meth/alchy because its a fuel. Eventually you will be able to cool better because you are using more of the other injectant.

There are up sides an down sides to each method. If you are looking for a PURE knock suppresant, then water is your man (after all, it doesnt burn). If its cooling you are looking for, and you dont want power to suffer, then Alchy and meth are where its at. However, you do have to remove fuel in order to make use of the properties, and that is something some people dont care to do. The 50/50 mix seems to be the magic formula at the moment, although personally, I use 100% denatured.

Please keep in mind that, at least personally, I never came in on one side or another. My opinion is, you take the collective data and form your own opinion. Some will opt for water, others will opt for other mixes. The premise here is that we all work for a common goal, and not debase other ideas purely on personal preference. If I am one of the offenders you refer too, then you have my apologies for the said transgressions.

Additional questions:
 

I am confident that with my system, all other things being equal, my car loses power when my AI is injecting straight water. I have felt this on the street, and after going through 3+ tanks of water at Road America. The amount of loss likely depends on how much it's injecting, at what PSI etc. (Assuming that the computer is not advancing timing due to air intake temps dropping like you said.) I'll try to post the dyno's from GooRoo's two runs when I find them again, and they confirm this. Again, this might not be with all cars, but it has been with both Rx-7's that I have seen that are running W.I. between the 330-400rwhp range.

At this point, I'm not willing to install a failsafe system and "tune up". Not yet anyways! My Rx6 turbo is too small, (Efficient until 18-19psi) the gains are too little (40hp tops?), and the risk is too big. (The last year of work for the whole setup). This will likely change in the future though.

Yes, at this point. Just trying to accomplish this without the HP loss from using straight water in my AI.

So, from what you are saying: (Correct me if I am wrong)

1) If I use 100% water, I will see horsepower losses.
2) If I use 50/50 water/meth, I will see horsepower losses due to the meth not being burned out, and richening the mixture.
3) If I use 100% meth, I would likely see horsepower losses do to the reasons in #2?

Seems like just dumping in meth in place of water won't really make any more power, unless you adjust the tuning. This would be easy enough to do, but if the system clogs, or is compromised, you find yourself running a map that is not safe and may be too lean without the aid of AI.

The conceptual problem I'm getting with all of this is the following. For the next example, I'm also assuming the following:

1) Each additional 1psi on my setup = about 10rwhp for my setup.
2) Running my W.I setup results in about 20-25 rwhp loss
3) Running W.I. will raise the level of safe boost you can run on pump gas by a factor of 3 or so pounds. (Based on general information I have read)


So now I have two scenarios, both which look very similar.

A) Run the car without A.I. at 15psi on pump gas and make 375hp.

or

B) Run the car with A.I. at 17psi on pump gas and make 375hp. (+25 from the extra 2 psi, and -25 from the water)

Conclusion: It may not be possible to achieve power gains with water injection, even if you turn the boost up, unless you tune up, or, if the boost added to the system exceeds that power loss from the water/meth.

I'm trying to find a way to do B, but without the power loss from the water.

I hope the above examples make sense, I know I am simplifying a lot of things that I don't fully understand, so feel free to point out where I may be off base.

Looking forward to replies! :)

-R4tw

EDIT: After reading through your replies, I think some of the main concepts are becoming clear to me. It takes me a while! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1Revvin7

The power benefits of ANY form of AI need a retune, and a retune for that certain injection.

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and

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1Revvin7

However, you do have to remove fuel in order to make use of the properties, and that is something some people dont care to do.

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Makes sense to me now... just tossing meth in is just like tossing more gas in, richening the map cell if all things are left equal. (But cooling of course.) Same with water, except it's not fuel, it's just not burning.

yep you pretty much nailed everything there but i believe you could push more than 3PSI safely but that depends on just how much water you are injecting. i really have no experience with water only so i can only speak from my experience with the 50% mix and i really haven't even gotten a chance to find out the limits of 50% yet until i get a new turbo that will be able to push that threshold. so far we have Peter who claimed something like 30PSI? safely on WI and Brian who made it to 24PSI on a 30% meth/70% premium pump mix and i have only really pushed up to about 19PSI on a 50%water/50% meth which makes up about 10% of my fuelling and far beyond the efficiency range of my tiny turbo.

on several occasions i was getting audible detonation at 18PSI on premium pump fuels ONLY and not due to faulty tuning so that is your starting threshold for pump fuel only and where you need to be weary of that line and crossing it without the support of AI will cost you a motor. it cost me more than one rear iron..

what we need is some unbiased rotary heads with water experience to chime in not someone who will turn it into a war of the worlds yet again.

If you adjust maps based on intake temps from a sensor located pased the water injection nozel, you should be able to take out some fuel and put in some timing based on the now lower injection temp. If the system fails the temps go up and timing and fuel go back to where tehy were.

i feel i have a sense of what can be accomplished w methanol and that is my project. i am intrigued w what a 50/50 mix can do. others will have to do the r&d.

just like you can jump way ahead on the learning curve if you are alcohol by going to the buick site where they have done it all already you can do the same for the 50/50 concept by visiting Snowperformance's site. they are 50/50 proponents and have nice stuff and a fairly active forum.

this is not meant to exclude other vendors who have experience w 50/50 but just a FWIW suggestion.

my compliments for the content in this thread.

howard coleman

Lets take a look at one of the other points of debate; what happens if your system fails?

When removing fuel and substituting in a secondary injectant (alcohol), you assume a certain risk factor. Most systems have Low Level indicators and such, and there is even a fail safe system on others. However for the systems like mine, there is an element of risk. How signifigant? I would say no more signifigant then the chance of the fuel pump dying, or any MYRIAD of other things that could go wrong.

Now it stands to reason that if you are pushing the limits of 91 or 93 octane (depending on which state you reside), to 20+ PSI with water on top and THAT pump fails, then the damage will be no less severe.

Either system has limits and vunerabilities if you are operating them in extreme limits.

And as the old adage says "you get what you pay for". And that most certaintly rings true in this forum.

Rat

This might help ( if it works )

Scott

Tune 1 is with methanol. tune 2 is 50:50 on the same map

the only way you can be sure of anything is to do it yourself and take the internet with a pinch of salt

or lean out a touch and i mean a touch and use water and this happens

Of course you lost power. You should have to lean out with 50/50.. Are those actual dyno runs?

The base tune shows 318hp @ 6162rpm 305 tq @ 5032

These are not dyno runs but power runs from dataloglab. ( lots of people endorse it and i have verfied the readings on a dyno also for a good comparison. I have found it to be within 10hp at 300hp )

Scott

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...hmentid=214140

I assumed "Benchmark" was straight fuel.. What were the variables used?

scott,

it appears you used different smoothing factors? can you equalise?

howard

The above runs are on 98 ron shell optimax and all on same fuel map and timing map

Methanol on the left
50:50 on right

I could display them all against basetune if needed

Basically the car had a rough map in so a added the differant chemicals to see what they did un-tuned. I then tuned them all to a point on the drag strip LOL

Scott

they are all set up the same

I dont know if this limited info is of anyuse to you but have a look anyway. If the info is deemed rubish then please feel free to remove the link

http://www.geocities.com/sdminus/ind...?1151874216342

Scott

Rubish? I think not! Naturally results may vary but none the less this was very interesting. I'd be interested to learn more about the other mixtures you used. I have been leaning towards 50/50 or maybe 25meth/75water. Did you test that mixture by any chance? My tune is almost exactly like yours and I'll be adding AI without tuning for it.

Great post, don't remove it.

scott,

i would appreciate it if you would post the entire body of your comparison so the section could see it. it is an excellently done series of tests.

howard

That's not rubish at all. That is really cool, Scott!! I dig stuff like that.

B

this just confirms the reasons I want to go 50/50 mix. I know this was untuned but as you can see the 50/50 mix is really the best of both worlds.

Scott,

Thanks for the information!!! The data even came in an easy to use color coded/numbered graph, for the A.I. imparied! (Like myself) :hah:

-R4tw

Thanks guys. I did this quite a while ago. The plan was to tune the 3 examples and present the other side of the story then change to the idc tracking kit and do it again.
Howeva my laptop has been giving me grief and finaly packed in and i lost all the data. i only have a very little data left.

I tried

Water
Methanol
50:50
10:90 nitromethane methanol
20:80 nitromethane methanol

I took a fully tuned meth map to the drag strip and smashed an uprated 2nd hand diff in second gear ( still managed a 13.0 @113 mph )

In october i took a fully tuned 50:50 map to the drag strip and this time with a KAAZ diff i cut a 12.0 @ 117 mph on full street tires running pump gas.

Howard what info do you want ?

Scott

interesting. How did the nitromethane work for you? I've been talking to some puerto rican tuners in florida at world wide racing and they say the only way to make power is a nitromethane /methanol combo. I did not agree but what do I know.

I know it's off topic Scott, but I have a suggestion for you for a tuning/road laptop. Get yourself an Itronix GoBook off of eBay. I got one for about $200. It's a fricken tank. It's made for military use and conforms to all the US standards for that. Army guys use 'em out in the field and such. Touch screen, glow in the dark keyboard, real nice unit. Hardened everywhere, shock proof hard drive stuff, etc.

B

i didn't visit the links but the reasons i chose the 50/50 mix was because you can run higher boost safer with more of a safety buffer just like tuning to 11:1 as a safety net. if you figure in any inconsistencies with pure methanol since it is a fuel and if you tune it to 11:1 it can veer off course very fast if the AI is not delivering properly, with 50/50 even inconsistencies will only be half as drastic with your AFRs. next reason is the added benefit of knock suppression, while you will lose a small amount of power with the water in the mix you can run higher boost levels more safely to gain it back and then some.

i'm not trying to sway anyones opinions but that is just how i see things.

It worked ok. I never tuned with it but im unsure about what ratios rotaries will like. Its not like water of meth. When nitro combusts it goes twice. THose top fuel cars are really low compression ratio and run lots of timing fixed. Its a future project.

I am told it yeilds a very high power to percentage ratio

Scott

Cheers brian. I will have a look into that

Scott

interesting. Maybe if I weren't in some back woods town with nothing more than 93 octane and water I would try that but I'm sure nitromethane like methanol is pretty hard to come by in smaller towns.

even in my small backwoods town we have methanol, just try the old school performance car shops.

is washer fluid 50/50?

some is as high as 40% methanol, not quite 50% but close. there is MANY kinds of washer fluid so you will need to check the MSDS for each and find out its % of methanol if it even has any in it. only winter blends of washer fluid contain any methanol at all, generally speaking the lower the freezing point the higher methanol content it will have, the summer +30F junk has no methanol in it.

some people have used it with great success but after thinking about it i try to stay away from the washer fluid. why? because it has additives that can cause buildup on the nozzle, have you ever had a washer nozzle plug up with deposits? i'm sure most have seen it. maybe i am wrong but i just would rather use a clean water like distilled and pure methanol for my system.

definitely never use tap water for any AI system, over time it will leave calcium deposits in the nozzle and pump just like an old shower head with irregular or partially clogged spray patterns.

some screen wash contains nasty stuff so be careful.

The nitro one is a possible future avenue.

lol there aren't any old school car shops here, haha yeah it's backwoods. There is going to be a new place though in a town real close to me that will be producing methanol from sugar cane in the future. I'll probably see if I can't find a friend there ;)

yeah you probably will, most of the methanol in the US is produced right here in Sacramento but you have to have a hybrid fuel cell vehicle with licensing to be able to purchase fuel directly from them. :(

my job sells yellow washer fluid for winter, melts snow on windshield. i wondering if thats any good? prestone brand. can i get anything from home depot? thats near my job also. i know we sell distilled water..

What site do you suggest for checking MSDS? The one I just tried only gave me 5 views for free.

dis1

not every MSDS site will list all manufacturers, i would suggest visiting the manufacturers site and see if they have their own MSDS sheets. for places like wal wart visit the wal mart homepage and it has a MSDS section by item type and name.

Nearly 14 months later, I will be revisting some of these concepts for my setup this season.

I am not willing to change my map and pull fuel to be used in conjunction with AI. (I currently have an old, manual WI system, and it has clogged on more then one occasion.)

My goals remain the same:

1) Run a non-tuned AI system.
2) Find the best mixture to reduce charge temps and knock.


I'm looking for a safety net above and beyond a nice safe tune for 93 pump fuel. Running a very nice map that is good to 20psi, and if I make it up to 17psi I want the engine to only feel like it's 13-14psi in terms of heat and knock. Willing to lose some HP by running straight water.

Hope to post some dyno's running different combinations of a mixtures... :peace:

I finally got around to do a back to back with just water injection. Without a retune, just adding water injection we gained about 10rwhp everywhere in boost on car we did today. Even when we added the 109 octane gas we still had a back to back of 10rwhp. Pretty neat!

Wow, nice results.

Makes me happy I'm running pure H20.

So, more power with straight water ?

Yes, a simple m2 injector pre compressor hooked up to the OEM windshield wiper pump. I would suspect double gains in power with an aquamist jet and pump.

Would also be interesting to compare the same setup (small nozzle, low pressure, pre turbo) with meth as the cooling agent.

I wonder if power would still go up despite a slightly richer A/F? Probably a bit.

Still running an IC?

Yes, I'd like to know if you're running a intercooler still.

It's getting to be about that time.......... for me to get a water kit. I guess I'll do a few nozzles on the comp housing.