Forging Fearlessly into new Frontiers w FJO
 

i finally got on the Beyond Redline eddy current dyno tuesday w the new generation FJO system.

the executive summary is: the electronics worked exactly as hoped. the simple stuff was the problem.

as you may know FJO is in the late stages of bringing a new system to market. unlike 90+% of all AI systems out there the FJO system uses solenoids (think fuel injectors) to dispense the injectant. just like your current daily driver. just like the FD.

computer controlled fuel injection, using 40 psi rail pressure is why we have much more efficient (better mpg, more accurate AFRs, more hp) cars.

most AI systems don't work like our fuel systems.

they simply have a pump and a nozzle (think your kitchen faucet) and they juice the pump w varying volts and out it comes. with no regard for RPM. further if you get on and off the throttle in boost the pump has zero ability to deliver similarly.

real crude.

it works pretty well for drag racing where your foot is on the floor.

it also is o k if you are just spraying water to cool your motor as the delivery requirements are not needed to be too precise.

it does not work for 100% methanol road racing or for screwwing around on the street.

FJO designed an entirely different AI setup and is on the second iteration.

FJO's system is much like the regular fuel system in your FD.

to determine the precise (we are talking milliseconds of injector ontime) amount of gasoline your computer has a lookup table w lots of cells in it. the cells are located by RPM and load. various sensors (RPM and MAP) determine the proper cell and a precise amount of fuel is injected. PRECISE.

that is exactly how the FJO system works. they have a 16 X 16 grid (256 cells) w RPM and Load. set it as you like.

their screen shows all the metrics.... whether the pump is running, what the rail pressure is, what duty the solenoids are running, rpm, throttle position % etc and it also allows you to log, replay and analise the data.

and it all works.

well, not exactly.

fuel pressure must be constant for constant delivery volume at a particular % duty.

here's where we get into a problem.

the FJO system uses the ubiquitous Shurflow pump. FJP did put a really neat aluminum housing on it w alot of fins to shed heat...

the pump pumps the methanol forward thru a filter and a pressure sensor to the solenoids. the concept is the pump is to provide constant pressure. with methanol it doesn't happen and therefore i did get varying pressures on my dyno runs.

varying pressure = varying AFRs.

according to FJO the setup works fine w no pressure problems w water.

methanol has a number of properties that challenge the current setup.... much greater density and volatility are a couple of keys. since the system deadheads at the solenoids the pump when on goes into internal bypass and overheats the liquid turning it into gas and dropping the pressure etc. once gas is created the pressure declines thru delivery... probably some cavitation.

back to the drawing boards...

as i said, FJO has already done the difficult work, we just need to fix the simple stuff.

so:

i will be adding a Weldon A2040 Bypass regulator. adj 0-200 PSI. Meth-happy.
by adding the regulator i will be able to lock my pressure. (70 PSI plus boost).

secondly, i will be adding a return (bypass) line back to my 4 gallon meth tank. by doing so i will avoid any pump churning issues.

i will also be changing to a real pump. medium term i think i will go w a custom Weldon pump but nearer term i plan to go w a Bosch variant of the 044 inline. the 044 puts out more than the 23 GPH (max) i need. Bosch makes the 909 variant that puts out 39 (V the 044s 53) GPH. normal pressure is 5 bar, 70+ PSI. so i will turn up the pressure about 25 psi and won't have to bypass as much as w the 044. the 044 is meth "tolerant."

i need to find out if the 909 is also "tolerant." if anyone has a source for obtaining that info i'd appreciate it.

it is appearing for 100% meth/w solenoids you need to build a real copy of the typical fuel system. i really want to get this done and be back on the dyno. i have waited around long enough.

why go thru all this?

because when i get the pumping straightened out the combo of a turbo'd rotary on a precise methanol and 93 octane diet will be a killer.

hc

Howard, when functioning properly, my FJO setup only sees a 15 psi drop in pressure when spraying at 100% DC with a 700 cc/min injector. I am logging the pressure sender with my Innovate LMA-3.

However, you expriences with the pump mirror my own. When the injector is not spraying, the pump is dead-heading and internally by-passing the methanol. The pump overheats, methanol boils, and the pressure drops to less than 20 psi.

The issue is the low boiling point of methanol versus water.

Saying that, there are two work arounds to the problem. I implemented the easier one to great effect so far.

The first work around is to install a REAL return line after the pressure sender to the tank. This would keep the pump from internally by-passing the methanol and should help to keep the pump cool. The hurdle to overcome, though, is minimizing the loss of pressure due to the return line. A methanol compatible FPR would do the trick, but you are looking at over $200 to plump the entire return set (FPR, SS fittings, hoses, etc.).

The second work around (and the one I implemented) is to install an independent relay for the pump that is MAP activated by your EMS. The relay is open and pump remains off until the MAP threshold is reached, at which time the relay closes and turns on the pump. My Wolf V500 is controlling the FJO injector via a PWM channel and I am using Wolf to control the FJO pump relay as well. I have the activation point set at 1 psi. I start spraying methanol at 5 psi all the way to 20 - 23 psi.

It works great so far. The pump heat sink is significantly cooler after driving around. I can now hold my hand on the sink; before I could only briefly touch it.

The pressure seems to remain fairly constant, regardless of how much cruising I do. The problem really comes from cruising for miles without spraying. This gives the pump a chance to overheat.

thanks for the info...

"The issue is the low boiling point of methanol versus water."

as per FJO you are correct. they indicate the pump does not develop gas in bypass w water. of course this doesn't help me as i run 100% meth.

the new FJO system does have an option similar to what you are doing. i switched to that option which turns on the pump as you get to boost. this does help a great deal but does not eliminate the problem.

as you know if you are using 100% methanol and taking a significant volume of gasoline out of base fuel your alcohol pressure needs to be exactly repeatable as to pressure and ideally pressure constant.

we found even w the pump coming on only under boost that repeated dyno runs resulted in varying and significantly reduced pressures. this is unacceptable. AFRs all over the place.

it may well be that the shurflow pump might work w a return line and the proper regulator but at this point i am going to remove it from the system and substitute a proper pump.

i have spoken w Bosch tech and the proper sized variant of the 044 has exactly the same internals (other than sizing) so it will work w meth. for 08 i will run the Weldon adj fuel pressure regulator w a return bypass and a bosch pump. for 09 it will be a Weldon custom pump sized exactly for the system.

i expect to have all hardware next week and be back on the dyno immediately thereafter.

hc

My comments:

Another possible help would be alcohol compatible premix oil, which changes the properties of the alcohol making it more stable, probably not enough.

There is another possibly simpler solutions I can offer also that are actually very cheap, I will detail it in a new post.

for a couple of dollars you can get pump head parts from shurflow without the internal bypass, if your going to use an FPR with a return, then disable the bypass in the pump if you do this I think there is no reason to look for a new pump.

Your idea of using an EFI style bypass FPR is a good one, get something that is truly intended for constant contact with alcohol.

The FPR option is the best solution, as it will reference manifold pressure and increase the pressure accordingly. I'll probably opt for this alternative next year in conjunction with the pump relay. Another thing I did was install a 50 scfm computer fan on top of the pump, blowing down across the heat sink.

Saying that, my AFRs are fairly stable under boost during repeated runs (11.5 to 12, still tuning for a steady 12). I've accounted for the drop in pressure in my injector duty cycles. I am pulling 20% fuel at the moment and have my failsafe setup to switch maps based on methanol pressure. If the pressure drops below the threshold, my EMS switches to my fuel only map.

Referencing manifold pressure actually isn't necessary providing you are tuning based upon manifold pressure as the load source, it will happen inherently in the map.

The fuel injector FPR references manifold pressure to increase fuel pressure 1:1 with boost. Right now the FJO injector is not boost referenced, so when your manifold pressure is 20 psi, your methanol pressure at the pump is the same as it was at atmospheric.

You need to reference manifold pressure for the methanol FPR in order to provide a steady, constant pressure for the methanol injector.

nope....

If your load calculation source is manifold pressure and that's what your injection is based (typically a 3d map referencing load and rpm) on then you don't need to reference manifold pressure with the FPR and it doesn't matter that the injected pressure goes down because the tuned map inherently compensates for this.

you could extend this to the overall EFI system also and apply this same logic.

In other words you do not need to apply a constant steady pressure, to inject a calculated and accurate amount.

maybe a dumb question, but would using an internal pump instead work better?
or is it because of the corrosive nature of alcohol, there are no options for an internal alcohol pump?

i think it could work well either by referencing manifold pressure or not...

since we have rpm/load mapping for base fuel thru the PFC and the FJO system it is a simple matter to just do some tuning. i am locating my Weldon Bypass Alcohol Regulator next to the pump which is located behind the plastic panel near the driver's side half shaft. the primary reason for locating it in that position is to have a short bypass alcohol return line to the tank.

should i wish to reference manifold pressure it would require a longish line to the motor. do-able but just more stuff... i like to keep things simple.

it would be possible to use a Bosch intank pump but lots of work in the fuel cell. inline works as well and would tend to heat the alcohol less.

hc

one other issue with an alcohol intank pump, alcohol is somewhat conductive and intank pumps typicly have contacts submerged.

slo, I see what you are saying now. Thanks.

If the pump is the problem maybe look into a Magnaflow alky pump, what other dilemas are you having?

i looked at all the pump options. most alcohol pumps are designed for monster GPH. generally these pumps are in drag cars that make 1000 rwhp and beyond.

the requirements for my AI alcohol system are 23 GPH max... not 100 GPH+.

secondly, i need 100 PSI. most pumps function at half that rate although pressure could be raised by controlling the output orfice size.

i had an excellent talk w Weldon. they completely understand my needs and will help me w bypass sizing. Weldon will make a purpose sized pump. since it will take some time i am going w a Bosch inline (probably the 909) which will will deliver the GPH and PSI and is methanol compatible... though Bosch says it is not designed to be used w meth. i hear numerous people have used the pump successfully.... any input appreciated on this point.

hc

If you have time to try it, there would be great service done to the AI community by trying the bypass pressure regulator with the shurfo pump, as this is the inexpensive available pump that everyone already has and uses.

It would cost very little and be easy, the pump parts to remove the pressure bypass from the pump are a couple of dollars and easy to install.

I am convinced that its not the shurfo pump itself that is causing the problem but in fact the way its bypassing to regulate pressure.

I think that its generating vapor into the pump intake.

So far my relay setup is working beautifully. The pressure is remaining constant over long durations of cruising and then boosting. My pump is in my engine bay 1.5 feet from my turbo and exhaust manifold!. I understand that FJO's software has that option built-in, but is it possible that the pump is still running?

FYI, that aluminum housing is a standard shurflo part, however in the way its being used right now is nothing more than a decoration. The only way the heat sink is effective if you have a fan blowing on it. Think of it like an intercooler or radiator, without airflow it will heatsink. Infact, without airflow I would bet if anything the pump may even get more hot with it on (absent air flow).

Im sure its a great system but if you want the pump heatsink to work, you need a fan to blow on it.

David

You do not need a fan blowing on it, you simply need air moving past the heat sink.

Yes of course, it does not have to be a fan, however due to the placement of pumps under the hood or in the trunk, typically the only air you can get is from a fan. If you place the pump in air flow of course that would work. My point is, unless you have air flow that sink does nothing.

David

Howard have you thought of using s 50/50 mix of water and methanol? This way you wont get as much evaporation...

Jay7...

Agreed. A 240z engine bay (like mine) has quite a bit of air moving into it from the radiator core support. There is a 2.5-in. diameter hole directly across from my pump that provides the air. I was running a 55 cfm computer fan on top of the pump but later removed it as it was just not helping with the boiling issue.

However, once I switched to the dedicated meth pump relay, my boiling issues have disappeared.

I have 45 minutes of logging that shows fairly steady methanol pressure at 22 psi of boost.

now I've got to ask, being that I work on computer, why would they make video cards with just heatsinks if heatsinks didn't work? I understand heat soak but there has been plenty of computer parts that get cooled by heatsinks alone (ie. processors, south and northbridge chipsets, video cards, and ram). I guess what I'm trying to say is that if it didn't work at all and only served as a primary way of getting heat soak why would so many computer part be cooled by heatsink alone?

look at the environment they are in? how hot does a computer case inside a house get? or if it is in an ACed room? bottom line a computer's environment is more likely to be cool than hot. even if the heatsink doesn't have direct circulation, there are other areas that move air, CPU fans? power supply? case fans? correct me if i'm wrong but arn't stuff that gets really hot have fans? vid card processor and cpu, power supply?

A car is dynamic, and more than likely to get hot. Whether it be in the engine bay, or sitting next to the gas tank. there is no moving air, or not much.

Well the purpose of a heat sink is to draw air away from the object it is "protecting". I would tend to think a heat sink enclosed anything would be much better off than anything that holds that heat inside itself. No?

ooops the purpose of a heat sink is to draw heataway from an object not air, lol

slo.

time is flying by and i need to get back on the dyno so i wanted to take the pump completely out of the equation. after evaluating my new system i will try to mod my Shurflo pump and see if it is up to the job.... it probably is.

hc

update:

i expect to be back on the dyno this week.

i now run a different alcohol pump. the new pump is a Bosch 044 variant (PN 0 580 254 909). the 044 puts out 53 GPH while the "909" pumps 39 GPH. since i use two 700 CC/Min solenoids/injectors my max is 23 GPH. the 909 is an inline external pump and as such has a nipple on the inflow side. i used a barb fitting. since you will need a short length of rubber hose to connect the two you need to know:

the only rubber hose to use w alcohol is SAE 30R9 spec. this is readily obtainable at NAPA or just about any auto parts store. do NOT use normal rubber hose or very bad things will happen almost immediately.

pump only runs in boost of course.

i selected a Weldon Adj pressure regulator ( PN A 2040) meth happy adj to 200 PSI.

the other key is a return line back to the alcohol fuel cell.

i now have constant pressure to my alcohol injectors and it is back to the dyno.





http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9317/003dg1.jpg

top line is return from press reg. dash 6. bottom is feed. small top line is vent to outside.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1500/004jx3.jpg
left line is feed from cell. top line is return to cell. right line is to injectors. this all gets neatly covered my the black plastic OEM panel.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5869/006qi0.jpg
note filter and line pressure sensor/logger

Thank you for the update. By the way, I am now running two 700 cc/min FJO injectors/solenoids as well and having Wolf V500 control them both. The pump only runs under boost. So far all data logs show a nice, steady methanol pressure curve up to 25 psi of MAP.

brief update

dynoed last thursday. 23 4th gear runs, 2000 to 8000.

the FJO system performed FLAWLESSLY. constant 107 alcohol line pressure after the regulator.

we immediately never gave one thought to the alcohol part of the tuning and were able to concentrate on tuning.

we ran out of wastegate spring at 20 psi and made 498 rear whp.

knock was less than 21 thanks to the alcohol. egts 1550/1600. exhaust manifold back pressure was 21 psi at 20 psi boost thanks to my twin Garrett TO4 setup.

timing was V conservative at 12 IGL and 11 degrees split.

i hope to get out on a roadcourse (Blackhawk Farms) oct 11-12 where the groundbreaking aspects of the alcohol system should shine. 20 psi on a road course, heh heh.

lots more later including a trip back to the dyno to run where the turbos are happiest... 27 psi.

stay tuned,

howard coleman

Nice numbers, when does it start spooling?

here's a bit more on the oct 25 session and what i am up to today....

2008 UPDATE:

things are looking up in 08 for my twin TO4 turbo project. last year was the first year on the dyno. we did 3 dyno sessions each averaging 4+ hours w ace tuner Luke Stubbs at BeyondRedline Green Bay Wisconsin.

challenges for 07 were tuning my Alkycontrol 100% methanol AI system and dealing w a declining torque curve after a decent ascent. due to a few problems real and illusory we were only able to tune to about 15.8 psi and made about 420/360. i did switch the rear turbines from stage 3 to stage 5 in the middle of the 07 process.

last thursday i was back on the (new) eddy current Beyond Redline dyno. we made 23 2000-8000 4th gear pulls.

the big new deal was a new generation alcohol system from FJO. unlike most systems which use nozzles the FJO system uses fuel injectors. nozzles are great for watering your lawn. fuel injectors are great for precisely tuning your motor. as in milliseconds of "ontime."

here's what the tuning table looks like. the values are % of max deliverability.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2...ogrid08jf5.jpg

the older gen (spray and pray) systems work o k for drag racing where your right foot is always on the floor. since the only variability as to delivery is an electric pump they really can't parallel fuel needs on a road course where you are always on and off the gas.

(if you are just using the setup to spray water to cool your engine they are fine... if you are partially fueling your engine w magic methanol on the street or a road course.... no way)

anyway, i was on the dyno initially in july. we found that the alcohol pressure behind the injectors (2 700 CC/Min) was varying and with it our AFRs.

back to the drawing board.

remove Shurflow pump. insert a Bosch variant of the 044.... the 909. add a Weldon Adj alcohol compatible pressure regulator. add return to AI fuel cell line.

result: absolutely constant alcohol line pressure and back to tuning on the dyno.

so, we did 23 runs last thursday. after the first run we never even thought about the alcohol system. it was there. it was constant. and combined w pump 93 octane it was magic.

20 pounds of boost. PFC knock reading between 7000 and 8000 was between 10 and 20! on pump gas

my descending torque readings from last year have vanished. i spent too much time chasing that last year. it turned out to be boost related.

BTW, my exhaust backpressure at 20 psi boost is 21!!!!

my turbos are designed to put out 82-84 pounds per minute at 27 psi. unfortunately, my actuator springs are maxxed at 20 psi. i am using the stock FD actuators adapted to my ATP Ultimate Wastegates. they do 10 psi w the boost controller turned off.

i removed one of them yesterday with the idea of screwing the rod in to make it shorter and preload the actuator spring for more boost but found the travel to be only .31 inches. if i were to shorten the rod to stiffen the spring i would lose travel and probably WG flow so i will need to find stiffer (different) actuators.

since i want to get ontrack in the next few weeks 27 psi and 600 rw will have to wait.

i made 498 at 20 psi but do expect i can raise the output a bit as i am conservative on timing at 12 degrees w 11 split. further, my lead plug (NGK R6725 10.5 heat range) is black and oily. i am going to a hotter plug in the lead only.

finally, we have been tuning too cold on the egts. the target temps pre turbo have been 1420 F for spool and 1550 F at target boost. actually these are the temps for 100% meth (no gasoline at all)... so we will bump EGTs a bit since 70% of my fuel is 93 octane gasoline and we have seen zero knock.

it looks like my twins are proving out V my target. spool is either the same or slightly better than a recently posted GT42.

i really don't want 400 rw at 5000 anyway as it would be more difficult to drive on a road course.

the setup is great around town and should be exciting when it finally gets tuned out.

stay tuned more to come this year. OBTW, i have about 13,000 miles on my twins. and my motor has been in my car for 3 years now... 0ver 100 dyno pulls and it reads 17 inches of vacuum at idle.

pics of my FJO setup in the Auxiliary Injection section.

hc

Thanks for the update. Do you have any word on when FJO will have the 2nd Gen Controller ready to ship? I have been waiting since Feb. FJO has not responded to release date questions. Any intel would be appreciated.

Jim

Does the FJO system have two separate maps controlling each injector? That is how I am using Wolf to control my two FJO 700 cc/min injectors. Your duty cycles seem to correlate well to mine and we are both replacing 25% (IIRC). That is interesting as you are a 1.3L (??) rotary and I am a 2.8L in-line 6.

Our torque numbers may be similar as I am putting down 410 ft-lbs at the wheels at 3800-4000 rpm.

Very nice. I am glad that you managed to get everying sorted out.

Not suprising as a 1.3 liter rotary would idealy intake 2.6 liters of fluid per 2 crankshaft rotations, much like a 1.3 liter 2 stroke engine.

if i were wanting to get onboard the FJO AI train i would contact them directly. if my needs were water only i believe the FJO package as currently constituted would deliver un-varying pressure.

if you plan to use meth in any % i would suggest you acquire the FJO module, solenoids (2) and hose kit. you then need the Weldon adj pressure regulator and you might use the Shurflow pump. while i switched to a Bosch i have a distinct feeling the original FJO/Shurflow would work fine as long as you plumb in a return line w the regulator. if i get a chance before the snow flies i may reinstall the FJO pump to see...

i will be on a roadcourse w the setup oct 22. i am very interested to see if the motor w the FJO meth setup can make laps at 20 psi boost. most FDs run the road courses at one bar for engine longevity. i think, given the numbers i see as to oil temp, water, knock, egts that i can do it at 20 psi.

we will see shortly.

hc

Really good stuff Howard. I was really confused at first at your initial problem with pressure but I get it now. I want to use the FJO kit after I get my car dialed in on pump fuel (with any other gremlins) before I add another item to the list. I know all the information is in this thread but, I have a couple specific questions just to clarify for myself...

1) Are you using the Bosch 044 instead of the FJO pump? If so would you use anything else?
2) What pressure do you have meth set to on the regulator?
3) As always, if you could do it all over again would you change anything or do anything differently?

Thanks!

When and if you go to test the FJO pump, you should use a shurlfo non bypass pump diaphragm.

It is a cheap part and quick and easy to install and is available cheap directly from shurflo.

Howard, I've been going over the kit and seenothing mentioned about boost control, Was that an extra option you had to perchase?

Howard, just and FYI. I believe that I have had my FJO setup running longer than you and I just had a failure that could have resulted in a blown motor.

One of my solenoid driver modules (CWD0082) failed AND the pressure sensor failed. It would no longer "fire" the solenoid and the sensor only outputs 0.61 volts (equates to around 8 psi), both with and without the pump running.

As you are aware, I am using my EMS to control my methanol injection. My failsafe is based around the pressure sensor. If the pressure is less than 90 psi, the EMS switches maps to my fuel only map (less boost, more fuel, less timing). A failure of **just** the driver module would NOT have resulted in the maps switching.

I do have good news to report though. I am 2 months outside of the warranty period but FJO is replacing the module under warranty and I am purchasing a new sensor at their replacement cost ($42 shipped).

I need to figure out a way to modify my failsafe setup, or at least wire in a warning indicator, to include whether or not the module is working as well.

How long is the warranty perioid?

6 months

Hey Howard, has there been any updates on FJO's new generation kit? I think its time to install the methanol injection system in the car and play with it over the winter so its ready for some big time road coursing in the summer :). Has there been any updates on your system as well? Thanks in advance.

thewird