blown fuel pump fuse
 

i just returned from the Texas Mile which was a ball but also a ballbuster.

being a rookie i had to make one run at 165 or less, then if i didn't exceed 165 my next run was limited to 199. i wanted to break 200. of course i didn't know if i could do it but that was my objective.

for some reason my speedo recently took a dump so i was gauging my speed off the tach.
165 is 6400 in 5th.

on my first run i got a good start and ran 9000 in first and second, 8800 in third and 4th. i shifted into 5th with my right foot on the floor and noticed the tach was moving swiftly past 6400. i totally lifted and drifted past the 1/2 mile marker and ended the mile at 152.

my license was upgraded to 199 limit. given the car ran 160 at the 3/8 marker i was pretty happy and given the emergence of a 15/20 mph headwind decided run two could be all out as the wind would keep me on the low side of 200.

i sure didn't bust out of 200 on run two but it wasn't due to the headwind.

here's the fuel pump fuse:

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1576/2vxi.jpg

i lost the fuse. and this is the reason for the thread...

when Luke and i discussed switching to E85 he said the primary issue was that E85 acts like a cleaner in the tank and any rust or whatever ends up in the filter. he has had to clean a number of filters...

upon return from the Mile i called Luke, my long time tuner, and the first comment he made was check the fuel pump fuse...

i think it will be a simple matter to diagnose the cause of the fuse failure. my guess is a clogged pump filter.

check your tank, check your filters when making the switch.




howard

were you running a paperless filter?

the pump is a Walbro E85 pump PN 9000267 and the Walbro filter. i run an Aeromotive billet filter between the tank and motor which has a stainless steel element. no paper no where.

hc

What happen to the V88 and the fuel pressure sensor fail safe?

I understood ones the fuel pressure goes down it will help take care of the engine by injecting more fuel, lowering the the boost to WG spring pressure and cutting down ignition?

there are a number of active responses to various conditions and we haven't as yet had the time to get them enabled.

hc

Sorry to hear about the engine failure. This is definitely true. It was unbelievable how much gunk was extracted whem switching to E85. Only way it went away was to get the tank professionally cleaned coated and replaced all filters. Filters now look brand new even after a year of use.

my tank was spotless clean but I got the black goo clogging up the injectors, car was surging at idle, popping upon decel and shifting- just running like shit.
Drained the fuel, put 93 in there and it seems to be running great again. Havent switched the car back over to e85 yet to see if its running well but the symptoms went away when the fuel was changed. Researching the internet it seems that some areas of the country might get it more than others as some guys say they have been on E85 for years with no issues.

I will not store the car with e85 anymore and I will run a few gallons through from time to time. I really want to get on adding a flex fuel sensor as well.

These things never end

I'm glad you found what caused your motor issues. How bad is the damage? Anything salvageable?

Did you even check the filter and pump to see if it was clogged before blaming it on the E85. I ran E85 for around 3-4 months at around 28 psi before my engine fire and didn't have no issues

I pulled my fuel pumps out since I'm switching set ups, and fuel tank was as clean as when I first installed the setup, pulled my Stainless filter and also clean.

I'm running 2 40 amp relays for the dual pumps.

I have run E85 for over 4 years now and my fuel filters never get clogged. In fact they look as good as the day I put them in always!
I change them once a year anyway.
I hate checking them because I always end up taking an E85 bath in the process! :lol:
I am going to use 93 this Winter so I can start it. Has a hard time when the temps get below freezing on E85.

You don't think a 20 amp fuse and an overdriven fuel pump had anything to do with it?

Have you checked the filters or pump yet before you blame it on the fuel?


Keeping it simple really helped you.

https://www.rx7club.com/alternative-...imple-1040908/

HC, thinks outside the box, and as a rotary owner we all need to do that from time to time to keep up with today's piston motors (that is a losing battle though). Just because a traditional method works doesn't mean another one might not work better, and to put it simple, keeping it simple is always better. Which is why a pushrod naturally aspirated v8 will outlast a FI rotary pushing 25 psi with AI to make the same power. Anything we can do to make our systems more simple will always help with reliability.

we need guys taking the risks and thinking outside the box

we all know at full boost there is little room for error before you go boom.

yeah lets blame it on the fuel :icon_tup:

well i'm going with two Walbro 485 pumps, so hopefully that'll be enough for me. may not be simple.. but using two pumps has always seemed to work.

finally got to the filter today.... not an expert but...

http://imageshack.us/a/img21/6045/mgg3.jpg


http://imageshack.us/a/img96/8167/8was.jpg

today i am on the trail as to finding where the black stuff came from.

here are 3 fuel pumps that i have run. the one on the right is a Denso that i ran from 2004 til 2012. gas only and w a Boost A Pump at 20% gain in boost. it ran perfectly at the 500 hp level. notice filter is clean.

the middle pump ran for a few months 2012-2013. it was purchased from FuelInjector Connection and is according to them from the same manufacturer as the Aeromotive Stealth. gas only around 500 hp. no issues. clean filter.

the third, on the left is the Walbro E85 pump PN 9000267. run from July to Nov. note plugged filter. E85 and Benol only.

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2666/y7t8.jpg

i am currently looking for a source of the black substance clogging the filter. i do have a surge cover top in my tank and is does have a black rubber gasket. upon inspection the rubber looks like it has been effected by the alcohol as it has expanded.

here's a pic of the backside:

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/518/5sb7.jpg

the rubber maintains its glossy surface and does not seem to be be degrading other than expanding although it is black and not much else in the tank is black.

i initially posted my tank looked pristine... not really. a closer inspection finds a considerable amount of black deposits in the tank:

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2936/2qou.jpg

the primary deposit is just under the filter location but the black stuff is on the walls of the tank. i will have to remove the tank and have it professionally cleaned unless i decide to replace it altogether w a fuel cell.

the only other black item that looks suspicious is the collar around the filter intake tube which looks like it was hogged out.

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3233/16v5.jpg

it is a Walbro item and i assume the rubber is E85 friendly... don't know why it looks like someone took a few bites out of it.

so ATM i don't have a solid answer. any input welcomed.

i did change the title on the thread for 2 reasons... it could be read as i am blaming E85 for my problem. whatever happened, it isn't E85's fault. it is my fault for having something in the tank that didn't mesh w the fuel.

further, my motor is fine. it has the same compression as when i put it on the trailer for Texas. for some reason i don't understand, after the second run the motor spun over w the starter like it had zero compression. no power impulses on the starter. at that point i decided there was no plan B and the jig was up.

yesterday i swapped in a new fuse and the motor fired up and gave me good numbers. so no blown motor on E85.

i will solve my filter problem and expect to do some dyno work this winter before going back to the Mile in March.

howard

be sure all your fuel hoses are E85 compatible otherwise it will strip the inside walls of the hoses and deposit them in the tank, filters and injectors. use hardlines as much as possible in E85 systems, in fact the only place you need a soft connection is between the engine and chassis.

while the filter is definitely plugging up i doubt it was the only reason for the fuse failure, considering it ran fine AFRs all the way up until the fuse popped simply shows that the amperage it is pulling normally was borderline sufficient for the fuse rating.

the dirty filter is definitely a problem but it is obvious it was still moving the required amount of fuel regardless of what it looks like.

"strip the inside walls of the hoses and deposit them in the tank"

that got me thinking... i have the rubber OE return line still in the system. it might be a good candidate.

"doubt it was the only reason for the fuse failure"

agree

goopy...... hallelujah ... pass more ammo

Hi Howard, that black stuff that’s splattered inside the tank and in the fuel pump tray is factory undercoating as the tank going thru the assembly line. Just over spay when they had the evap. Emissions cap and fuel pump holder off. Note your fuel pump holder is not covered in undercoating. As far as submersible intank hose you must use the Gates fuel/E85 intank submersible hose.
SUBMERSIBLE FUEL LINE HOSE - Racing News - Racing | Gates Corporation
I use the Gates stuff and or I use a Black nylon fuel line special designed for intank or external use. I have use both with regular and highly oxygenated race fuels and E85, the hoses never let me down. I don’t remember at the moment who makes it but when I get home I can look it up in my records if you’re interested. I believe I have some extra if you need a few inches.
Anyway this stuff works for me, your experience may differ.

Good to hear you didn't pop your motor. Been meaning to call you since getting back from the Texas Mile but have been busy.

+1

not many other seals i've used could handle a pump falling flat at 20+ psi and surviving obvious detonation cycles. usually the rotors cave in before the seals even begin to warp, one engine did exactly that and the seals were perfectly fine.

When I get home, I will show the fuse I use for my pumps. Heavy Duty with heavy gauged wire.
Had one like yours installed and felt it one day and it was too hot to touch.

Kinda like this
Inline Maxi Fuse Holder with Cap, 6 Ga. Wire Leads

might seem a little cheesy but they work just fine


i tend to use manufacturer specs as a baseline but never as a bible, it's always good to know exactly how much current is flowing through a circuit. IME pumps always pull more amps when they are run beyond 75% load and the fuel will warm the pump and push the amperage higher, bench testing a pump in a static environment will always yield less draw and higher flow. this is also why most pumps that i have run near maximum rating died while on the dyno.

More details on this hose?

Thanks.


Howard, glad to hear the motor is still good to go. I think that what you said about still having some stock rubber line on the fuelt return could be your culprit.

Hope you get it sorted, really anxious to see what the 9180 does with 85.

the details are that it is super damn expensive. last time i ordered some it was about $40 a foot.

Goopy Apex Seals...

a large thumbs up. i was doing some initial road tuning in July running on gas and a water meth AI combo. the AI was being delivered thru fuel injectors pre and post turbo.

or so i thought.

i was getting knock where i shouldn't. i was just running off the spring around 14 psi w my BW. it was really laying down the power. i was rolling into 3rd gear and the 295s in the rear could only hold 46% throttle. i couldn't figure out the knock until i figured the water in my water meth had plugged the AI injectors. i was getting zero AI.

note the knock spike in the rear rotor ... over 600 on my ViPEC.

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5717/fizv.jpg

i did swap out the system and eventually switched to E85 w a small nozzle delivered water meth component.

the bottom line is after numerous mid year knock events and more than 40 25+ psi dyno pulls including 5th gear my Goopy seals still show top tick compression!

i am using them in most of my builds going forward and would love to disassemble my motor to take a look at them but my motor doesn't want to come apart.

howard

gates hose like $20 on amazon, think its about the same price at a napa store

My tank view, no E85 thru it YET :egrin:

Attachment 657122
Attachment 657123
Attachment 657124

I really think the overspray came in from the port just above the fuel pump hole.

Here are the fuses I use for most of everything.

Howard, Take apart the pump and see if there is any gear wear. E85 has been known to break down certain filters/socks which gets sucked up by the pump( also, e85 has a higher chance of having containments than gasoline). Which in return draws more power and blows the fuse. That black stuff could possibly be from the wear of the gears in the pump or other parts of fuel system no compatible with e85. Judging by a quick look at your pictures it's worth a shot to see...just tying to help! Case

I bet you were relieved when you found that the motor still had compression. Any more ideas on why the engine would turnover will no compression pulses even though it still had plenty? I'm trying to wrap my head around how that can happen :scratch:

here's the chart that tells the tale as to my fuse. i can't plead ignorance because i posted the chart in my thread "Fuel pumps 2013." note the required amps around 73 psi (43 rail plus 30 boost)...

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640...pflowchart.jpg

16.4 amps at 12 V

18.3 amps at 13.5 V

running the pump as i was at 16 V would require 21.6 amps.

the above is calculated at 30 psi which is the top boost contemplated w my 4094r.

we didn't have enough time to get to 30 on the dyno so i was running a max of 26. further, my rail pressure was 39.

so 39 plus 26 = 65 PSI.

15.6 amps at 12 V

17.5 amps at 13.5 V

20.7 amps at 16 V

the fuse worked fine for a couple of months and over 40 dyno pulls including 3 runs thru 5 gears on the dyno. it also worked fine on my first Texas run thru 4 gears and a bit of fifth.

it was 3 hours between my first and second run so it certainly had time to cool. the fuse failed on the second run as i shifted into 4th.

i do feel the fuel filter blockage was a contributing factor but the fuse would have probably failed at some point at the 16 V level.

i will upgrade any wiring as well as the fuse and may see if the pump is adequate without the BAP.

it is worth noting that the OE fuel pump fuse in the FD is 20 Amps.

R!, thanks for the pics.... i do now believe the black deposit under the fuel filter is a result of overspray thru the small round hole near the fuel pump access.

Howard