Hmmmmm.

With all of the problems that people have had with the ET800's--and now this additional info about the ET900's--I was considering going the Hawk route. Unfortunately, Hawk doesn't even offer the DTC series compounds for the rear calipers:

http://www.hawkperformance.com/parts...d+Parts+%3E%3E

In fact, the highest compound they go to is HT-10 which is a far less aggressive compound than the DTC:

http://www.hawkperformance.com/motor...unds/index.php

This is starting to suck.

RB is sending me out some new parts. I'm going to try the ET900's at Laguna in November. I will also be replacing my MC just to be sure. I'm hoping for a set of revised brackets but I have yet to hear from RB that they recognize the problem with the revised-spec kit.

-ch

 

Does PFC made a pad in the RB shape? If so, I'd grab a set of 01's, and change out to a 929 MC and some good fluid (AP 600, Motul, or SRF). PFC's generally, and O1's are the real deal.

The comments on the 'vette forum aren't promising.

 

So, nothing positive about these RB brakes

 

Actually, the issues on that thread were about the brake pads fwiw.

 

I'm almost certain PFC does make pads (but I haven't checked) as I think the pads in these calipers are the same as the AP5200 calipers in which I ran PFC 01's. Unfortunately I sold those pads with the calipers. Also, RB won't warranty the rotors with PFC pads - but then again, they won't warranty them for track use anyway.

 

Just checked Performance Friction's website and they don't list an application for the rear caliper.

EDIT: make that:
Compound up to 97, front 463.15.44, rear 482.13.44
They do not offer the 99, 01, or 02 compounds.

The only company I've found so far that offers a full race pad for the stock FD calipers is Porterfield. They offer the R-4 in front (AP331) and rear (AP332) applications.

-ch

 

So wait, the pads that came with the bbk is no good? I just got the ET500s for my stock calipers. They should work good with the stock setup right?

 

Based on my experience, the ET500's perform similar to the Hawk HPS or other 'street' compounds designed to limit dust and noise. They don't have the bite necessary for Autocross, nor do they have the temperature capacity or durability for the track.

-ch

 

i have 1500 miles on my RB BBK setup... running the original caliper mounting bracket.

i ran 500s initially and found them to be very nice for aggressive street driving. no problems. i have run 800s on the street for the last 1000 miles and am real happy with them.

last weekend i ran a car club event in a really twisty part of wisconsin. 60 miles and i passed only one car going the opposite direction. i definitely used the brakes and they worked perfectly.

as to other pads...
you may know there is some kind of uniform pad numbering system. i believe RB indicated that the 440 caliper used such a pad. find out the number and you shouldn't have a problem sourcing other pads if you wish. i am sure RB would be happy to provide the number/code.

hc

 

According to this the FMSI for the racing brake front caliper is D110

http://forums.racingbrake.com/showthread.php?t=135

Before you guys decide the kit is crap I would suggest you try using the HT-10 pads in the front and rear. I have melted/destroyed more than my share of pads and I can say that of the 5-6 different types I've tried those are the best that I have used that are available for the stock rear caliper.

The good thing about HT-10s is that they are relatively high torque, and while they dust alot the dust is not corrosive like the Blues, so it won't damage your wheels or paint. Running the same compound front and rear will ensure the balance stays the same too. Also, if you are a NASA member, you can get a good discount on Hawk pads from Porterfield. Racing Brake also sells the HT-10's at a good price.

I was able to do 25 track days this year on 2 sets of rear pads and 2.5 sets of front pads, and I'm able to decel as hard as my tires will take (~1.2 g's consistenly) for 20-25 minutes at a time. The racing brake rear rotors have held up quite well, I do have a fair amount of surface cracking after 19 days, but nothing that would cause the rotor to be unusable. There has been virtually no rotor wear at all.

I have been very happy with my rear RB kit (and it has balance very well with my 993 front kit).

I should also mention that Damian also switched to the RB rear kit mid year and with it, a brake pressure gauge, and a replacement master cylinder on his manual setup we were able to fix his braking issues. His pad temps are now within range, and he has excellent brakes once the pads are at operating temp. He is running HT-14 fronts (on custom stoptech calipers and 13" rotors) and ht-10 in the rear which he can balance with his manual bar. The rest of us should probably try to use the same pad front and rear since the kit is engineered to have proper balance with the stock proportioning valve.

Hyperion: At 430 rwhp unless you run street tires and cruise around in 5th gear you will need hard core race pads to track the car. I do not know if the HT-10 will be enough, but I think it's your best option. If that doesn't work I think you will need to upgrade to a 14" front, and 13" rear rotor with large 4-6 piston calipers. Damian and I were talking and we think that once you get up above 400hp unless your car is rediculously light (<2500 lbs full of fuel) the stock rear and 13" front is no longer enough for consistent brakes over a 30ish minute race. Consider that even the World challenge cars at 2700 lbs and 200-250 hp have 13" front rotors and there's no way we can hope to get away with the same size.

 

GooRoo, I think your comments are valuable and I appreciate the viewpoint. Let me try to explain where I'm coming from on this, and why I'm getting so frustrated with the situation.

I think we can agree that there are several very fast track FDs out there. Ususally around 2500-2600lbs dry with close to 400 RWHP. These cars can run all day with ducted Stoptech or AP kits. Hell, at Laguna there was an ex-Pettit car with a very old-school front brake setup that could out-brake just about anything else on track. On slicks.

One of the big selling points of the RB kit was not needing ducting due to the rotor design. Examples were given by RB of production-weight cars (heavier than mine) doing endurance races on a single set of rotors and pads.

Sure, my car is a bit heavier and more powerful than the average FD racecar. But the test data simply isn't lining up with the claims. And if you look at what the Z06 guys are going through (with their cars weighing another 200lbs more than mine) it's not very encouraging.

Is a 4-pot 13" kit too small for the task? I would tend to say that if it's designed well it should have the thermal capacity to deal with track use. The M3 guys run on their stock brake calipers while ballasted to over 2700lbs. I can think of other examples like mid-90's 911s. A good set of rotors and pads and those guys lap all day.

I would expect the RB kit to do as least as well as the 13" Stoptech with ducts, but I have yet to see it. I am still hopeful that RB is simply having some QC and teething issues with their kits and pads. But if not, I will have to look to Stoptech/AP or just build something myself, probably with ducts on the front.

But that's encouraging info about the HT-10's. I'd much rather run the DTC's based on the feedback I've read, but at this point I'd pay real money for a set of brakes that can take a simple 8/10ths lapping day on Michelin PSCups. It's not like I'm qualifying for pole or running on slicks.

Again, I appreciate the info. Hoping that you and Damian can make it out to Laguna some day so we can run some laps together. (Damian's car is originally from here, so...)

-ch

 

I wholeheartedly agree with all your comments regarding the engineering of the kits. I was lucky in that I only ended up using the rear kit, and they seem to have done a good job on that part.

All I have to offer you is the experience I've had with my car, the experience I've gained watching Damian's car, and the knowledge gained from talking to other guys at the track and on the boards.

To me that points to:

< 275hp, stock or rs/rz.
300-400, 13" front, 12.5" rear
425-???, 14" front 13" rear

My assumtions:
good driver
using all the car at 8/10-9/10
2750 car weight wet with driver
r-compound or better tires
proper brake balance engineering (or manual adjuster)
directional vane rotors
race pads
good ducting
titanium shims
good fluid

I would love for someone to make the DTC's for the rear. I originally thought that was one of the good things that would come out of this, because I thought RB said they were going to get the DTCs made for stock calipers.

I'd love to come out there, but it's a bit of a haul from MN. Damian actually did run there before he bought it from Fabian, but I'm sure he'd love to go again.

Hope this helps.

 

Seems like RB has been pretty quiet on the thread lately, but they appear to be listening. I just had an email correspondence with Warren who informed me that they are "trying to collect more facts before we can formally respond to the offset issue".

I think they are getting a pretty good picture of what the problem is so our posts are of value. Don't know how they will address it though...

 

PFC discontinued all RX7 pad shapes in race compounds. They used to make them. I got the last set of 97 rears in the country basically.

They WILL do custom runs though, for 25-50 sets, so it has GB potential. I bought mine through Porterfield, and they were telling me about it.

Best thing is to get 'em for your aftermarket fronts (one of the reasons I DIDN'T bother with Mandeville or RZ's), and match 'em up with something similar in the rear. Porterfield R4's will probably work... I've used Nick's competitions as well.

 

Hello all,Just got back from the track in New Hampshire- NHIS,Sat-Sun.
First time out with the RB kit and I am very impressed.
First session I bedded the pads in and then had at it. I ran 900's front/800's rear.

Car is about 2760 half tank of fuel no driver. They stopped very strong for two days with good pad wear and rotors that look good.

I was very impressed with the rears balancing the braking much better than I have ever had in my car at threshold level. This track is very demanding on brakes.

The brakes were so good I left a lot on the table for my lap times because I was braking so much later and still slowing down too much for many corners.
Brakes were predictable every lap every braking zone.

I won my class at the time trial on Sun and the brakes were the only thing changed. Ienjoyed my time on track so much more with great brakes that I was actually laughing out loud at how quickly I could dissipate speed with NO drama and no wiggles.
My kit worked great and fit fine. I was in the pre order with the spindle grind.
James McNamara

 

That's great news. I'm glad to see you didn't run into any issues with the ET900's. I'm trying those at the next even and am hoping to see similar performance!

Out of curiosity, how much HP and what type of tyres are you running?

-ch

 

This is good news, but can we have additional information about your car, HP and tires?

 

There is good news and bad news. Kind of like watching a tv drama. I can't wait to see what's next. Let's hope good!

 

hey all, tires are Avon R compound 225 45 17 on SSR comp wheels.
HP is unknown,have not been on a dyno.
Engine rebuilt by KDR all the typical reliability mods,downpipe,high flow cat,pettit intercooler,pully kit,ACT clutch etc..... stock boost on the twins. I would guess 300 or so rwhp?? This is a track car.

I have many days on this track with my car over the years and now have to learn the track again because my car stops so quick and even. I was running on the stock brakes with Hawk HT-10 pads,calipers rebuilt,new master cylinder,multiple full flushes of the system because the brakes were such a weak link in my car.....but not anymore hope this helps guys, Jim

 

Thanks for the feedback, Jim! I went with the ground spindle option because I wanted the rotors and calipers as far inboard as possible to preclude fitment problems with my Fikse wheels. I am *very* glad I went that route.......

 

Ok, I have a few additional pics finally to show the condition of the rear rotors after about 15 days (~56 sessions, ~1120 minutes, ~1275 miles) of use. To get to this point I went through about 1.5 sets of Hawk HT-10 pads.

For full size pics look here.

Overview of the rotor:



Here's a closeup of the rear rotor:



Another view:



Shot of the front rotor for comparison... The pic isn't as nice, but you can see the same type of cracking, and these have 6 less days on them. These are custom full floating rotors in the 993 TT kit size from Coleman racing.



Shot of the car as it returned from NASA nationals... (but on the street wheels/tires)



Couple notes:

1) You can see where the EDP Paint got burned off by the intense heat on the rotor ring and now turned to rust. You can also see how far this extended toward the mouting hat. It was very interesting to watch the heat patterns that the center mounting setup creates.

2) There is virtually no surface wear on the rotor ring. This is somewhat difficult to see from the pictures, but you can only just barely catch a fingernail on the rotor where the pad swept area meets the center.

3) The surface cracking isn't a problem (in my mind) as long as it doesn't get much worse or extend to the edges of the ring.

4) The pads have worn relatively evenly, at least as evenly as the stock setup. I rotate them once per set to get maximum use out of them either way.

Modifications for next season:

1) Try some different pads, since I have the heat under control I can try some different pad types.

2) Get some fresh air ducting to the rear brakes, just to ensure the heat back there stays under control.

 

Thanks for the additional pics, GooRoo. Great stuff.

This is off topic, but I love the TDM wheels. IIRC the largest they come is 18x8, right?

Back to brakes, I think the rotor wear you're seeing is totally acceptable after 1000+ miles. I don't see any crack propagation or interaction with natural stress risers like the slots which suggests they are essentially at the surface only.

For those that missed it, those front brakes are ducted.

-ch

 

GooRoo - are you still running the stock rear shields behind the rear rotors?

Thanks for the update.

 

No, had to do something to install the RB kit, so I cut them out. I started with a tin snips and finished the job with a cut-off wheel. There isn't much left, and what is left I hammered flat to the knuckle so that air could get in there easily.

 

I was able to just remove the front and rear heat shields/backing plates entirely. No cutting.