Swan Neck Bumper Mount Uprights...
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Joined: Mar 2011
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From: Orange County, CA
Swan Neck Bumper Mount Uprights...
I have been conducting on-going research for the past 6 months on aero and, before I get on my soap box, was looking to get some additional educated opinions on this.
Has anyone else dug very deep into a set-up like this specifically?
Swan neck mounts have really just begun their foray into the aftermarket world and I have only seen a handful, if even three, frame / bumper mounted uprights on an FD...
One example...
Excuse the crude, likely not sound sound form an engineering perspective, mock-up below.
Moderator, please relocate if this is not the best applicable section.
Has anyone else dug very deep into a set-up like this specifically?
Swan neck mounts have really just begun their foray into the aftermarket world and I have only seen a handful, if even three, frame / bumper mounted uprights on an FD...
One example...
Excuse the crude, likely not sound sound form an engineering perspective, mock-up below.
Moderator, please relocate if this is not the best applicable section.
While not exactly the same, Theorie is developing something similar:
https://www.rx7club.com/group-buy-pr.../#post11617732
https://www.rx7club.com/group-buy-pr.../#post11617732
The aero theory on that sort of wing mounting (so I've read) is that the air passing under the air foil is actually more important than the air passing above, so it's designed to maximize the clean air flow underneath, and not obstruct it with the mount.
As caredden mentioned, I'm working on wing mounts that attach to the rear of the car (instead of the trunk lid), and requires no modification to the car. Not a "swan neck" mounting for the wing, but I could easily adapt the upper part of my risers for that type of mount.
I'm not even sure where to get a wing with the mounts on the top-side, but if I had one I could definitely adapt my brackets/risers to attach to the top-side of the wing instead of the bottom. But on a street car - would there be any real advantage?
I'm also working on a wing that bolts to the rear of the car and cuts though the bumper (requires modification obviously) - similar to the one you linked to here - but I was giving priority to the work on my "no modification" wing first. Having the risers cut-through the rear bumper would obviously allow the risers not extend as far from the rear of the car, as in my design, but I didn't want to hack up the bumper on a street car to run the wing.
Here's a pic of my "no modification" prototype thus far...
I'm not even sure where to get a wing with the mounts on the top-side, but if I had one I could definitely adapt my brackets/risers to attach to the top-side of the wing instead of the bottom. But on a street car - would there be any real advantage?
I'm also working on a wing that bolts to the rear of the car and cuts though the bumper (requires modification obviously) - similar to the one you linked to here - but I was giving priority to the work on my "no modification" wing first. Having the risers cut-through the rear bumper would obviously allow the risers not extend as far from the rear of the car, as in my design, but I didn't want to hack up the bumper on a street car to run the wing.
Here's a pic of my "no modification" prototype thus far...
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Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 40
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From: Orange County, CA
It can look a tad it strange... Ideally, from an aesthetics perspective, the uprights would extend through the hatch and weld / bolt to the frame. Although, this is even more invasive than modifying the rear bumper and also opens the car up to the elements. Not that I generally plan on driving the car on track in the rain but, you know...
The actual design I am working on, different from above illustration, is much more organic and, I think, lends a little bit more in the "looks department".
The actual design I am working on, different from above illustration, is much more organic and, I think, lends a little bit more in the "looks department".
Great point, ptrhahn. Thinking in terms of an airfoil / wing on a airplane, the air that flows over the top of the wing, due to its curvature, or camber, moves faster that that across the bottom of the wing creating lower pressure / lift on the top and high pressure on the bottom.
Now flip the airfoil over and you have a wing that creates the reverse effect or upside-down lift, so to speak. Being that the curved surface, the bottom in this case, is doing the "heavy lifting"
, it is most advantageous to have this free of anything that could impede the free flow of air across the surface, hence the swan neck. Taking this theory to the most minute factors, most race teams will clear over any decals that have been placed on the bottom, or top, of the wing element to insure high flow.
Now flip the airfoil over and you have a wing that creates the reverse effect or upside-down lift, so to speak. Being that the curved surface, the bottom in this case, is doing the "heavy lifting"
, it is most advantageous to have this free of anything that could impede the free flow of air across the surface, hence the swan neck. Taking this theory to the most minute factors, most race teams will clear over any decals that have been placed on the bottom, or top, of the wing element to insure high flow. As caredden mentioned, I'm working on wing mounts that attach to the rear of the car (instead of the trunk lid), and requires no modification to the car. Not a "swan neck" mounting for the wing, but I could easily adapt the upper part of my risers for that type of mount.
Thanks for chiming in, theorie. I enjoyed reading through your thread and seeing the progress you've made!
I have been talking through the development of this with KC at APR for the last month or so. They were hoping to finish testing for debut at SEMA this last week. Unfortunately I was not able to make it.
There are a few other companies that already have production models ready for purchase. For example, GOODAero. Although, I do agree, for the street driver and even most weekend track drivers, I don't think that any substantial performance increase could be seen by going this route.
There are a few other companies that already have production models ready for purchase. For example, GOODAero. Although, I do agree, for the street driver and even most weekend track drivers, I don't think that any substantial performance increase could be seen by going this route.
I'm also working on a wing that bolts to the rear of the car and cuts though the bumper (requires modification obviously) - similar to the one you linked to here - but I was giving priority to the work on my "no modification" wing first. Having the risers cut-through the rear bumper would obviously allow the risers not extend as far from the rear of the car, as in my design, but I didn't want to hack up the bumper on a street car to run the wing.
I would be very interested to see what advances you have made with this version. Have you made any efforts, aside from your thread, to see what kind of interest the community would have in one version over the other? I assume this is why you decided to go the "no modification needed" direction first...?
Below are a couple screenshots of the actual vector mock-up I have been working on. Still making some tweaks on the shape and cutouts / supports but would like for the upper extension to have the ability to tilt for hatch access (pictured below).
If you think that there might be some synchronicity with your other development, I would love to compare notes.
Below are a couple screenshots of the actual vector mock-up I have been working on. Still making some tweaks on the shape and cutouts / supports but would like for the upper extension to have the ability to tilt for hatch access (pictured below).
If you think that there might be some synchronicity with your other development, I would love to compare notes.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2011
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From: Orange County, CA
Technically, it could be as high as one would want but, I am hoping to to produce some CFD data specific to the FD with a "2D" wing element to find the ideal position.
I don't want to speak for theorie but, it looks like he is using a "3D" element which would allow the wing to sit lower than a "2D" element.
I don't want to speak for theorie but, it looks like he is using a "3D" element which would allow the wing to sit lower than a "2D" element.
Ha ha! Right, the wing could be removed for street use, easing the decapitation fears of motorcyclists everywhere!
Have you done any kind of simulated stress testing? I had to revise my riser designs a few times to make sure they were sound - according to simulation, at least.
There are a few other companies that already have production models ready for purchase. For example, GOODAero. Although, I do agree, for the street driver and even most weekend track drivers, I don't think that any substantial performance increase could be seen by going this route.
I would be very interested to see what advances you have made with this version. Have you made any efforts, aside from your thread, to see what kind of interest the community would have in one version over the other? I assume this is why you decided to go the "no modification needed" direction first...?
I was interested in seeing how the car road tests w/ the wing located further back (essentially behind the car) compared to the traditional spot, right over the trunk lid. If it doesn't perform as desired - I'm going to revise the risers to move the wing further forward, which would then require the pivoting mount as well (so the trunk lid can open).
Technically, it could be as high as one would want but, I am hoping to to produce some CFD data specific to the FD with a "2D" wing element to find the ideal position.
I don't want to speak for theorie but, it looks like he is using a "3D" element which would allow the wing to sit lower than a "2D" element.
I don't want to speak for theorie but, it looks like he is using a "3D" element which would allow the wing to sit lower than a "2D" element.
On a side note, I wonder how long before a certain forum member starts crying to the mods that your thread is posted in "the wrong section"...lol
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 40
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From: Orange County, CA
Unfortunately, I haven't yet. Just waiting on the specs for the final wing itself to see if any layout type changes are necessary.
Correct.
Renna, scrub, and myself were talking of doing that on my non-mod wing, to move the position of the wing farther forward. I got the idea from another forum member who made custom mounts/risers for his high-mount wing - he attached them to the body of the car so re risers sit in the gap of the trunk lid. In order to open the trunk he un-pins the front mounting holes and rotates the wing out of the way.
I was interested in seeing how the car road tests w/ the wing located further back (essentially behind the car) compared to the traditional spot, right over the trunk lid. If it doesn't perform as desired - I'm going to revise the risers to move the wing further forward, which would then require the pivoting mount as well (so the trunk lid can open).
I was interested in seeing how the car road tests w/ the wing located further back (essentially behind the car) compared to the traditional spot, right over the trunk lid. If it doesn't perform as desired - I'm going to revise the risers to move the wing further forward, which would then require the pivoting mount as well (so the trunk lid can open).
I spoke with Mike at Kognition and, I believe. Ciro Design on this... It is something that has been done, quite often in fact, but, more for the purpose of rapid removal, versus tilting the wing. Not really much of a difference in my mind.
Short of unbolting everything, I think only hands-on R&D can prove how it will function.
Short of unbolting everything, I think only hands-on R&D can prove how it will function.
Looking forward to it!
Ha ha! I'm sure its only a matter of time.
