Strut tower bar helps handling on the street?? Yes or no??
 

There seems to be at least one member on this forum that thinks that adding a front strut tower bar to an FD (without a bar) will not have any noticeable effect on the street. Curious to hear what others think???

Please vote on the poll.

What poll?

Sorry, I didn't see it at first.

Made a HUGE difference for me
 

I have rear brace as well and a few under the car. Car handles very well

what brace is that looks high quality, kinda like cp designed ones i've seen but looks better

Took my front and rear off one day to feel what would happen, drove around the block and put them back on. Didn't even drive hard, only did the speed limit and I felt the difference. Reason, I had a debate with my Dad who called BS, he's kinda old school. So I let him drive it too with them off, then on and he felt the difference. He'd never driven the car before. Mind you the street is shite and bumpy but, still a difference. Good poll.

I think its an OEM option or mazdaspeed or something. Beautiful brace though!

I believe it is a bit of a stretch to say that a strut tower brace makes a noticable difference in handling or chassis dynamics on the street.

The chassis of the FD is very stiff. The original R1 came with a front strut brace partly as a marketing item and partly because at high g-loading, the brace would further stabilize the front suspension.

The front upper brace is certainly a fine idea and should probably be on every FD, but a blanket statement that you can immediately discern a difference in handling is a bit silly.

On the street it is most likely that the tires will lose their grip long before the chassis sees the loads necessary to cause flex in the front suspension.

I have done back to back sessions on track (VIR, Summit Point, etc.) with the front brace on the car and with it off and I couldn't tell any difference.
My data acquisition peaked at over 1.19g throughout the sessions and in my meager hands I couldn't tell you which times the brace was on and when it wasn't.

With that said, when on race tires, it's a very good idea to have an upper brace because the chassis is seeing incredible loads that certainly weren't in the range of what the engineers expected the car to see on the highways. (therein lies why the R1 came with one)

I would say for normal street driving there wouldn't be any major differences. You shouldn't be flying around turns anyway on the street. For track use however...that's a different story.

That's quite a brace setup Doc. I'll bet that really locks up the entire engine compartment. I like the OEM badge on a "non-oem" brace :)

I agree. You would need a whole lot of grip and turning force to exert enough force on the chassis to get the brace significantly loaded. I've run with it on and off and there is IMO no difference. Even "aggressive" street driving (whatever childish shit that's supposed to represent) won't come close.

Dave

Can't tell a difference on or off when driving on the street. Take a sway bar off, front or rear, that you can feel on the street.

Tim

if your definition of "street" is sitting in traffic, no difference.

however, if you live in crestline, where i used to, the streets all wrap around the mountain and once you put one on, you can never live without them.

it all depends on how much you turn.

Brace Set
 

I have the AutoExec brace sets top and bottom. They have them for the towers and the tunnel. Costly but well worth it. Turns like a Mini and runs like a Viper.
http://corksport.com/store/category/...sion_misc.html

case closed...same thing I've heard from other experienced drivers, not street squids

At this point, 79 % of the people who have voted disagree with you. Yeah, case closed!!!

WVrX7 whats your setup? tires, struts, and springs? are you just an r1? 1.19 is pretty impressive...

So, conveniently, the few that see things your way are right, and the vast majority don't know what they are talking about? I think you just insulted a lot of people.

Nothing too potent.

I have Konis, Ground Control Coil-overs, Eibach Race Springs and Kumho Victoracer tires.

http://webpages.charter.net/wsgammon...atavir0606.jpg

http://webpages.charter.net/wsgammon...Ourpaddock.jpg

I stand by what I typed.

If strut brace makes an owner feel better, that's great, but if that piece of metal truly makes a difference, then there is something wrong with the car.

How was the install on the bottom pieces?

It looks like the top ones won't fit on my FD--engine bay b/c of ignition amp placement and rear hatch b/c of battery placement.

Also, (kind of) on topic---although there is disagreement over the use of the front bar, go out and remove your *rear* strut tower bar and drive without it. You'll find out very fast that you need that bar to keep the car stable. My dad had accidentally not tightened his in his R1 after removing it temporarily to install struts/springs. The bar was there, but not bolted in.

Thank god he is a good driver, because the car scared the absolute shit out of us.....on a clear stretch of road he went wide open throttle, and toward redline went over a manhole cover with one rear tire, which upset the car and sent the rear end out. He had to correct like mad about six times before the car settled down.....at times the car was swaying like a pendulum so violently that we were in the oncoming traffic lane, which was empty. All in all, not a fun experience.

I felt the street difference with the front one removed from my R1 when I tested it over 6 years ago. That was driving around 90 degree corners near my house.
Under the speed limit but faster than most peole do it. It was more of a turn-in response feeling.

My two cents
 

It is kinda obvious that BMW, Audi and the rest of the better Auto makers spend a lot of money trying to make the chassis stable and stiff. I wonder why all the racers and the Auto reviewers speak to it so often. The roll cage protects the driver, true, but its real reason for being is to stiffen the body. I raced a little in the 70,s and play around now that I am old. Take a look at any winning car. You will see a lot of braces. While the tires will lose traction with and without the braces…what they do for you is add control. This is my 2 cents. Don’t take my word go to the track and have a look. I have NEVER seen a winning car without the body braces. Maybe someone could enlighten me.

I will take a picture of the rear tower brace and post it tomorrow, the bottom set is a bit harder to show. They went in pretty well. Took less than a week to do the top and about 2 days for the bottom.

Doc

i call b/s a piece of metal isnt going to make your 20 mph turn around the stoplight on the street any better, stop lying to yourself if you're saying you can honestly feel a stiffer turn in or flatter cornering from a strut tower bar on the street. sway bars are a bit different you can feel a removed swaybar on the street easily.

the track is obviously a different story, when you're putting extreme loads on the chassis you'd bet you can feel the difference with a strut tower brace, and it helps a lot too!

The front strut tower bar does not improve handling for the street. Can you feel a difference with and without? Sure. Does that difference equal a handling improvement? Not IMO.

As far as that disagreeing with the majority, I'm not bothered in the least :p:

Completely different story on the track. I notice a definite improvement in the feel of turn in response and that's a plus because it gives the driver clearer feedback, but it doesn't add performance to the chassis.

Damon,

I don't autocross much anymore. My local club lost its lot years ago. Because I have to drive 140 miles (one way) to get to the event, I only go 2-3 times per year. With relatively few events each year, I just race on my street tires (Toyo T1-R). Are you saying that a strut tower brace make ZERO difference for me while autocrossing? I believe it does improve my car's handling while autocrossing. And if it does while autocrossing on street tires, how is that different than pushing the car hard thru low speed turns on the street?

I contend that it does make a difference on the street, especially on a car with stock suspension.

I would be interested in knowing just what action it is believed that the upper strut bar is doing to "improve handling" at street driving speeds and the cornering loads generated by street tires.

Is it believed that the front suspension is actually deflecting enough on the street to change the alignment and/or suspension geometry enough to give a noticable difference in "handling"

Now you're asking a different question.

The original question was does the front strut tower brace improve the handling of the car? I say no. Now you're asking a different question; you're asking if there's a difference. Is there a difference? Yes. The difference I notice is that the initial turn in feels crisper through the steering wheel. I notice no real handling advantage though (and I could prove that in my case by removing the bar for a few runs at the next event and comparing the data...). Because the bar helps me feel what the car is doing I see it as advantageous, but IMO it's not really helping the car, it's helping me.

I could toss a coffee can full of marbles in the trunk and notice a huge difference in the car as well. Does that mean the car is better?

If literal handling is unaffected, then its unaffected. However, if the actual feedback created translates into an increased level of driver confidence, or communication which thus enables them to operate the car more effectively, then the vehicle as a whole serves its intended purpose, and is then "better" depending on who you ask. On the street, I can't say I've ever driven hard enough to reach the limits of the car or its supporting modifications, nor do I ever intend to; but what I get from driving is the enjoyment...a large part of driving is the subjective experience, so I suppose this sense of confidence is what it will appeal to.

By that rationale I should install a girlfriend-riding-shotgun-giving-head mod. I would feel a lot more confident and responsive then.

Dave

It depends on your definition of "on the street". If by that you mean driving the car like you are legally supposed to drive on the street it makes no difference at all. I have driven plenty with the front one off and with the rear one off and honestly couldnt tell a difference in normal city street and highway driving.
If "on the street" means pretending you are in second place at Laguna Seca and you have to make up a half second to take first then yes you will likely feel a difference

Agreed. The danger however is it quickly becomes philosophical: "If I think the car is better, does that mean it is better?" I read Adam's original question as stating the car's performance envelope increasing with the front strut bar in place, and decreasing without it.

The way to prove if there is a performance gain is with numeric data. I'll try to remember to do so and log some runs on the same course both with and without the bar in place. Nobody get me wrong, I absolutely prefer the car with the bar in place, but I don't feel you're going to see any true measurable difference in my car's performance.

If you'd like to take the idea out of context, sure. However, the idea is the equivalent of an addition such as an over-assisted power steering system. Will the removal of it drastically alter actual handling limits? No, but the feedback it communicates will allow the driver to better connect with the tires and vehicle, and thus provide a sense of control that is absent when over-assisted. As subjective as it is, "feel" accounts for a lot in my opinion, though I won't intentionally confuse it with the cars literal performance, as DamonB pointed out.

I'm not trying to give you crap. :) If the bar affects feel more than actual measurable performance, I won't disagree with the idea, but I can't tell it myself.

But really in street driving, even if you could feel a little difference I'm pretty convinced that it won't be enough to have you driving differently. Again, not in the range of dynamics you can experience on a street.

Dave

I look at it a little differently. If the chassis was actually moving any significant distance then the hood and hatch paint would be all chipped up from chassis flex.

A stiffer chassis might have a higher resonant frequency that would give you a nicer sound when you hit a bump or pothole. It would make the whole car feel more solid. That should not be confused with an increase in performance.

It is also kind of similar to ultra performance shock absorbers. You can't take advantage of the difference unless you are a top level driver at the edge of control.

Now on the other hand, I have a race car with a full cage. When I first started racing, it was common to jack one corner completely off the ground and then open and close the door quite easily. After a few years of racing I can now jack up one corner of the car and the door gets a little stuck. (as it gets older, my rod is going soft...)

I'm sure that every bit of stiffening would help to keep the car as stiff as new as I beat the hell out of it on the race track.

However I am too cheap to buy one.

ed

Experts
 

I am confused. There must be a lot of experts here LMAO. I would be very carful taking advice from cake decoraters. Very few can or have built a car. I will take my advice for a ME thank you very much.

Doc

I agree that there is a difference, and that the steering feels crisper. The front end has a much more solid feel. Does it make the car handle better? I say that it must. Of course, I don't have any data to back up my supposition. I would be very interested to hear what you find, if you do the test yourself.

In addition, I suspect that nearly every nationally competitive race car has a strut tower bar, unless rules prohibit it. This alone makes me assume that it increases performance .............. street or track ;)

Here are the rear pics
 

Not the best work but my eye sight is going

Doc,

Did you notice much of a difference between this, and the OEM bar?

I added one shortly after buying my FD. Never felt any difference. I keep it only because (a) it can't hurt, (2) it's paid for.

:rofl:

It depends. Adding a part here and there is not the approach I use. I added the entire brace set, with new sway bars and bushings and Hem jounts with new schocks. The car will now turn as well as a mini and does much better than stock. The roll that the stock car is gone. Why did I not put coil overs on and stayed with stock coils. It is very hard to tune coil overs. It can be done but it is not worth the 5 to 6% difference. Coil overs need a lot of re-tuning as time goes on. I am not into that

I am not an expert in this area. However an expert helped me put the package together. He took off several seconds off his lap time. Why do I like it....The car is one hell of a fun car now and its handling is very predictable which makes is fun and I know just where the limits are time and time again and that my friend is hard very hard. The stock car had personallity and I did not like that.

I have almost no power mods. I do not need them for the type of driving I now do. If I want to go fast in a straight line I drive my Hemi dart. But that got boring or I got old.

Hope this helps

:crackup:

Anyone else think they just look cool :D

I've had my R1 brace off and on many times and I feel a big difference in everyday driving.
I'm not an aggressive driver. The car just corners flatter. No doubt whatsoever.

Racecars are not street cars; they are built for an entirely different set of conditions. Look at your original question again; you asked about on the street. Street cars don't need to be as rigid as racecars because they don't generate near the grip and thus the chassis isn't as heavily loaded. Adding a front strut tower bar to an FD does not increase its handling on the street. Feeling a difference does not mean an improvement, it merely means different.

Then your insistance that the braces made such a big difference is absolutely invalid. You can only insist that entire package made a difference and in that entire package 90% of the difference you feel is the new shocks and sway bars. Guaranteed.

The strut tower brace is not going to change the cornering attitude of the chassis in any way, shape or form.

Not true. Many people drive their autocross and road racing cars on the street. You and your FD are a good example. Unless a car is a full on race car, that is always trailered, it is going to see some street use.

I think that you are missing the point. Some people push their cars hard, at times, on the street. I have a few places where I know it is safe to do this. No traffic, good visibility, and an area where there is margin for error. I have never spun out while doing this, but I have certainly pushed the car to its limits. While this isn't "normal" street driving, it must be considered street driving that is similar to being on the track.

I know that there will be people who will say that I shouldn't push the car like that on the street. I only do this in safe locations. Thats why I bought a high performance car. What's the point of having a great handling car if I never get to have any fun with it ;)

No, you're missing the point ;)

That's all fine with me. The point is that whether your FD has a front strut bar or not the limits of your FD's handling are still the same.

I disagree. Hopefully, you will be able to answer this question by doing the test at one of your events. I look forward to hearing about it.

c'mon dude, give it up....

this "stubborn, dumb little teenager" (you won't live that down, either, believe me) was right

The strut bar reduces chassis flex. You're telling me that won't affect the cornering attitude?
It reduces body roll...how can that not affect it?