Power Steering Removal - catching up on writeups part 3
 

This is another catchup post of a mod I did over the winter.

A while back I had a great conversation about tracking the 3rd gen with the highly accomplished driver Howard Coleman. I rememebr that he mentioned the removal of the power steering was one of his favorite mods. When a guy with his history in racing talks, I listen!!! Not only do I listen , I mimic!!!

Now this is not a write up on how to remove/install the steering rack, use the friggin manual for that. Instead I am going to talk about the 'REAL' power steering removal.

What I mean by real is that this is a full conversion to a manual steering system, not just a power steering pump by-pass. AND MAKE NO MISTAKE, they are totally different in feel and mechanics. Dont think by bypassing your pump or removing the ps belt that you can try the FEEL of no ps and see if you like it, ITS NOT THE SAME FEEL as having a manual rack. Do some searches, I am not saying anythign new hear, just re0iterating it so that you understand that what I did was the full manual conversion...not the pump bypass hose mod.

I love this mod for the track, I mean its amazing the difference in feel I had in the steerign wheel and its very effective in translating what the front tires are doing at a much more accurate level. From 0-5 mph it really sucks to try to turn, especially with massive sticky track slicks on :-) but from 10mph to 160 mph, it is just awsome!!! I probably would not do it on my street car, but its a MUST for any dedicated track or track/street car.

In summary, you remove the power steering pump and all its connections, then remove the steering rack. This is kind of a PIA since so many other things are in the way. PAY ATTENTION to the position of the rack and its rods, you want to makr things where ever you can so that when you put it back in you are not guessing where the 'center' is or how far out one rod should be vs the other, et, et.

Once the rack is out, contact these guys to convert your rack to manual:
http://www.mavalgear.com/

It is around $250-ish, but WORTH IT.

Here is a recent thread with some details on it:
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...power+steering

The rack came back just beautiful!!! I mean they really do good work, all the little details like re-coating the entire rack and new boots, packaged well for shipping, et ,et.

Here are some pics:

http://www.myrx7.com/images/damian_steering_rack_1.jpg

http://www.myrx7.com/images/damian_steering_rack_2.jpg

http://www.myrx7.com/images/damian_steering_rack_3.jpg

http://www.myrx7.com/images/damian_steering_rack_4.jpg


..and here is a post from howard, that i will paste in here (if I may howard):


"ditching the power steering is one of the single best fd mods. when mazda designed the fd they had 2 teams that worked for 10 months on one objective: removing weight. so they get the car down to under 3000 pounds and put power steering on????? no matter what anyone says about power steering you lose road feel. that'd be o k for a buick... manual steering: hello road. bonus, less front weight, bonus, less crap in the engine compartment and more cooling air. if you live above the mason dixon line junk your a-c while your at it. (don't forget to junk the condensor too, you know, that thing that sits in front of your radiator and obstructs all the airflow). bonus, you can change your plugs in a flash. as to the p/s removal mechanics... there are lots of options, as previously stated. i have been running manual steering for 4 years. i removed the pump and all lines. i plugged the lines at the steering box. i looped the 2 lines on the rack after turning the wheels back and forth to eject most of the fluid in the rack. drive your car w this mod for a week and then ask yourself if it would be an improvement to bolt on 30 pounds of stuff over your front wheels (where you want to remove weight), to clutter up the engine compartment so you can lose road feel. power steering turns one of the best road cars ever designed into the driving experience like a video game.
lose the power steering and say hello to roadfeel.

howard coleman

Do they weld the quill shaft during the conversion?

I am not to technical with what they do, but that sounds right :-)

According to jimlab, Maval can weld the quill shaft if you ask them.

https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/powersteering-removal-kit-428946/page4/

-s-

hmm, crappy, i dont hink i requested that, wonder if they did it anyway, they seemed to knwo exaclty what to do with mine from previous orders

I'd just like to add that I now know of at least three cars now (mine was one) that have had the steering rack mount bolts loosen. I highly recommend locknuts or thread lock on them. The driver side mount is the only one that locates the rack side to side and if even one of the bolts in it loosen the rack will move.

I did this mod in Spring '04, and would never go back. Maval DOES weld the quil, because I asked at the time.

Feels great, saves weight, saves clutter, and you can easily change the spark plugs from topside.

good note DamonB

exactly :-)

I'm sending mine out this week. Did you send yours with the tie rod ends or did you remove them?

you will like how it comes back, all clean and coated :-)

What is the turn around time?

few weeks i think...cant remeber well since it was over the winter so i didnt keep track of it, i wasnt in a hurry to get it.

I wonder how much different the Maval conversion is from what Flying Miata does here.
http://flyinmiata.com/tech/depower.php?x=1

im also interested in how the miata setup compares... can we get an update for a good thread?

The Flying Miata conversion looks to be just a looped system.

The first picture shown is of a looped system. Go through all the pictures and you'll see the way that they modify the rack is a little more involved.

i am not sure what you mean by 'update' ?

I have posted pretty much everything you can about it :-)

mono4lamar, according to jimlab, the Maval conversion is basically the same as the procedure outlined by the guys from Flying Miata. See post # 47 from this thread:

https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/powersteering-removal-kit-428946/


-s-

thanks for clearing that up for me... scotty props for linkin me!

yup.. feel free to ask me any questions about the Maval conversion in terms of feel.

Damian, you mentioned that you wouldn't install a manual rack in your street car. Would you recommend it for a car that sees double-duty as a track car, with average corner speeds 50+mph? How about a car that sees a lot of autocross racing, with average corner speeds between 25-50mph?

Have you driven a car with a looped rack also? How did it compare to the full conversion?

-s-

>>Damian, you mentioned that you wouldn't install a manual rack in your street car. Would you recommend it for a car that sees double-duty as a track car, with average corner speeds 50+mph? How about a car that sees a lot of autocross racing, with average corner speeds between 25-50mph?

My first reaction would be yes, I would do it, ....if its going to see open road tracks.

...However.... if its mainly autocross then I am not sure, autocross is way more wheel sawing than road track driving.... keeping the powersteering may help in that situation. In other words the gain of road feel in the franticness of autocross driving may not outweight the ability to steer easily, thus being better to keep the power steering.

>>Have you driven a car with a looped rack also? How did it compare to the full conversion?

My friend Andy's car (gooroo) has the looped rack and I have driven it, and have driven my 95 with no ps belt. To me they we very similar, harder to steer and a little bit of raod feel gain ...but nothing compared to what you get with the 'hard' conversion.

For example, with PS, the steering wheel doesnt move at all when you hit slight bump, small rocks, or road imperfections....it buffers all that and makes it 'nice' to drive. When you remove the PS, that buffer is gone, so you can feel the wheel pull when the tires hit these things. With the loop or belt removed, the hydrolics still buffers some of that, when you go with a hard conversion, it is no longer hydrolic....its just mechanical ....so you feel every little pull/push/bump on the tires tansmitted to the steering wheel....that is the feel you get with only the hard conversion... and most people get that confused with the simultanious effect that you also get from removing the ps, the fact that its harder to steer... that dosnt readily mean better road feel to me,.... just means its harder to steer LOL

Damian, I've felt true manual steering in an FSAE racecar. It's very, very nice.


So would you say the effort is about the same for the looped line as for the full conversion? For $30 in parts, I might try one of those for an autocross or two before modifying my rack. I drove a friend's car that had removed the pulley, and the steering wasn't too bad. I've got to get him out to an autocross sometime.

-s-

ive used it in autocross... keep the power steering...

Hello-

Ya know, there is a way to DIY your own "cheap bastard full manual" conversion. There are basically two steps:

1. Make the attachment of the input shaft rigid to the pinion shaft. There's a "flexbile link" here, which is used as a "torque sensor" for power steering. If you pull the rack apart, these parts will be pretty obvious... get a good welder to weld them together and you're done.

2. Open up the hydraulic pistons. The simplest way is to put little breather caps on the fittings to each side of the stock piston - that's two $1 parts from McMaster-Carr. Make sure you drain them of power steering fluid first :-).

Take care,
Shad

Damian, how's the Maval steering effort with wide racing rubber?

I have a slightly different opinion of this... I think there is a big difference between looping the line and taking off the belt.

At one point trying to take the P/S pulley off I blew it up. So for a period of a couple weeks while I got another pulley I ran without the A/C and P/S belt.

To me that was the worst of all. I couldn't feel the road because I was being buffered by the pump, and it was harder to turn then wheel because not only was there was no pump pressure helping me, I was having to push against it. It was not a good experience. I got a pulley back on there ASAP. At least in the normal P/S system it's easy to turn the wheel, even if you lose some feel.

Because of that experience I was hesitant to go to the looped line on my car. Howard convinced me that I had the worst possible experience with the belt deal and that I should try the loop line anyway.

Comparing the belt removal to what I have now with the loop line and there really isn't any similarities. I have much better feel since the pump is gone, and it's easier to steer since I don't have to work against the pump. On the street below 5mph it is harder to turn, but on my street tires it's not brutal. Once I'm above 5mph it really isn't an issue for me.

Oh, I've also driven Damian's track car both on and off the track and I would concur that it is the best for track driving, but his huge tires make it worse than what I have on the street. However to this point it hasn't been worth the $ to me switch to have my rack fully converted.

To be more clear, if I have to rank them for track driving (1-10 scale):

No P/S belt - 1
Worse feel than normal (slightly) and very hard to turn wheel

Normal system: - 5
Reduced feel, but easy to turn wheel

Looped line - 8.5
Much better feel than normal, hard to turn wheel below 5mph

Complete Conversion - 10
Slightly better feel than Looped, hard to turn wheel below 5mph

basically read Andys post above (gooroo), he does a very accurate description of it all...much better than mine :-)

it is pretty hard from 0-5 mph when the track tires are already warmed up (and im a wimp) ...i mean if im not moving and i have to turn the wheel, i really have to tug on it...so usually i just start soem forward motion before i start turning the wheel. :-)

but once you are moving at a good speed then its not that much effort, obvisouly more than with ps, but the bit more effort is well worth the added road feel....if you look at some of my videos you can see that in the middle of some of the turns the steering wheel will make small jitters, im not talking like big see-saw motion from me correctiing, im talking small blip one direction, very quickly....that is the road imperfections being transimited to the wheel...i love it. :-)

That is very cool....but my deal is that many times i my track car I am driving 150+ mph towards a wall of tires or cement before i have to turn and I am not about to trust myself with the steering rack changes LOL

...but i play wiht the brakes all teh time LOL hahahah

ahh so my theory may be correct huh, ...the ps is better kept for autoX application?

Hello-

Yah... but the failure mode is pretty benign. If your welds fail, then it will go back to working just like the regular power steering setup. The steering wheel will feel a bit sloppier, but you shouldn't lose control. Heck, I'd be more concerned of something letting go inside the transmission or differential... those are nasty failures as they tend to lock the rear wheels :-(.

Take care,
Shad

I just called to get a price for the conversion and it is 279.00 plus shipping. So I am sending my rack out next week.

pdviper when you get it back take some pictures for me! im interested in how it looks!

Ok, but it is going to take them 4 - 6 weeks because I am doing a "custom" steering rack. When I get it back I will take some pics.

Weight savings with PS removed, please?
 

Amongs you racers some of you, I trust, must have checked the weight of the removed PS parts (pump, lines, cooler etc).

Could yuo please give me a number? That would be my primary incentive to remove my PS if I could save a worthwhile number of lbs.

While at it, has anyone checked the weight of the AC components that could be removed, as well?

When I raced my FD in '94 and '95 weight removal was my primary goal and the car responded incredibly to the reduced weight. Would like to go that direction with my present FD as well, even though I am not racing it now. Just so much more fun to drive a light car....

Thanks

Albert

ac is about 25lbs for the entire system...
if i recall correctly the ps is about 5..

pics..

Thanks
 

Thanks for the info.

Remove... or, not to remove.....??? :confused:

the weight and the draw it puts on the motor its puts isnt really worth taking it off if you drive it often. i as many people dont drive this car on a daily basis so i can deal with it out cuase i dont have to drive it everyday. i removed it to get more feedback from the car... not for the weight savings as its minimal. and viper whats "custom" mean lol are you changing the rack itself and putting a different one to change the gearing? id be interested if you wanna share what your thinking.

This thread provided me with precisely what I was looking for. I will be pulling my rack and sending it in next week, thanks Damian. What type of turnaorund should I expect?


Rob

Update:
shipped my rack out today. Shipping was about $11 form VA to Ohio.

Price for conversion= $279 minus $60/$40? core charge. The new rule is that they must receive your core before they will ship a unit out to you. You are required to remove all boots, joints, clamps etc before you send them your core. When I called they gave me a RGA# to write on the package, and once they verify that my rack is good they will pull a unit off the shelf and ship it out.

Removing the boots can be a slight PIA, but I figured out a pretty good method for removing them. If you try to muscle the boots off you will rip them and the narrow end of the boot will probably still not move past the grooves which hold them in place. Shim the narrow ends of the boots out with 3 equally spaced mini flathead screwdrivers and push the boots outward without twisting them. Once you get the boot past the grooves you can start spinning them and applying some elbow grease to free them from the rack.

Honestly, after a week you won't even notice anymore with the Maval converted rack, unless you're at an absolute dead stop. Even w/ my 275/40 khumo track tires it's no big deal. I haven't tried autocrossing yet, but since you're actually moving during an autocross, I suspect it'll be fine. If you can't deal w/ it for street driving, I suggest availing yourself of the local gym.

just a question after reading through, if i remove the pump and the lines, and then loop the lines on the rack back into each other, should i remove all the fluid in the rack or leave it in??

I'd suggest removing most of the fluid, except a very small amount to lube the piston in the rack. If you leave too much fluid you will be forcing it back and forth, pumping it with the piston and it will introduce additional steering effort to do so.

Albert

Edit: what I suggest for you to try is to remove the pump belt, drain the oil at the cooling loop rubber hose coupling in front of the radiator. Then, remove the two hardline connections from the rack itself at both sides of the piston. Turn the wheel back and forth to expell most oil and place a piece of rug over the rack fittings with a couple of rubber bands to allow breathing and catch any more oil coming out.

Drive the car, test it to see if you like the feel. If not, all you have to do is reconnect the two rack fittings, fill the pump with oil, turn the wheel back and forth, start the engine, turn the wheel back and forth again to purge the air from the lines, and your back to your old power steering.

thanks for he tip

Maval Rack Review:
After driving the car for 800 miles with my converted rack, I would never go back to power steering ever again. The only complaint that I have is parallel parking but anything over 2mph isn't too bad.

I just did this conversion. I found another steering rack that I had sent to Maval, and simply swapped the manual rack in (stored my PS rack and pump in case I ever change my mind). First impressions: this car does not need PS.

I have owned or driven four other "sporty" cars with manual steering: a 72 911, 65 Corvette, 58 Austin Healey, and 88 911. The Rx7 is the 2nd easiest. Only the 72 911 beats it IMHO. I also have 255/35-18 up front. I am a weakling and can easily make 90 degree turns from a stop with one hand on the steering and one on the shifter.

When I finished, I weighed the PS pump, cooling line, pulley, bolts that attach the pump to the bracket, hoses etc on my bathroom digital scale. I included a half quart of oil to compensate for the fluid (system was at this point totally drained). I came up with 12 lbs.

Er, thanks Jim? :)