oil pan gasket or not?
hi guys,
i have to replace my oil pan because it is damaged. do i need to use a new gasket? i read on a thread but i am not sure that it is better to instal the pan with silicone without the gasket. can anyone please clear this? thanks!! |
-
|
No gasket, just sealant.
|
RTV sealant and oil pan brace, no gasket: http://banzai-racing.com/store/FD_oil_pan_brace.html
http://banzai-racing.com/store/media...3s_opb_kit.jpg |
|
use plenty of sealant. if you buy a factory new engine, that is all they use, sealant, no gasket
|
Not for sure, but I think the FSM calls for a 3 to 4 mm line of sealant. I went around the bolt holes. Using too much can end up in your pick-up screen...which is something that has been an issue on some of the remain engines.
|
No
later |
For the sealant use:
Permatex - The Right Stuff - Item #25223 Just go to your local parts store. They should have it. It is the most popular gasket maker used on this site for the oil pan. Can't go wrong installling an oil pan brace as well, like the one from Banzai. Got a Banzai oil pan brace on my FD. |
hi guys,
thanks for the help. i will use only the sealant. i am not sure that i can find the specific sealant here in greece. is it a problem if i use any silicone sealant for engine? also, the screens inside the pan is removable or welded? i have an oil pan that is a slight distorted at the botom and i would like to straighten it up. my original pan has a smal break beneath the oil level sensor bolts. this one is not distorted and is in better shape. can i weld or braze the break?,if yes can anyone advise how to do it? thanks!!! |
another question:
if i remove the subframe i will loose the alignment? thanks |
Originally Posted by AchillesGr
(Post 9807685)
hi guys,
thanks for the help. i will use only the sealant. i am not sure that i can find the specific sealant here in greece. is it a problem if i use any silicone sealant for engine?... Dave |
Originally Posted by AchillesGr
(Post 9807727)
another question:
if i remove the subframe i will loose the alignment? thanks However, IMO, if you mark the subframe location well before you remove it, any changes to alignment should be very small. Also, quite accurate toe settings can be done with just a tape measure and a carpenter's square by marking position of tire front and rear outer sidewalls (1/2 way up the tire) on the floor and measuring with the tape. Caster could change a bit, but if you marked the sub-frame position you should minimize this. Dave |
"The type of sealant is important."
i will take that a step further and use the word ESSENTIAL. you need to either locate Permatex "The Right Stuff" or something very similar. i do hear good things about a Toyota sealer that you can probably source thru a Toyota dealer. you can either weld or braze your pan... it is just mild steel. once you remove the pan you can easily straighten out the dents. the pickup screen can be cleaned and straightened easily. i recommend you mark your suspension settings and after re-installing the pan and subframe have the car realigned. less than an eighth of an inch toe in front. zero toe rear. 1.2 degrees negative camber front and rear zero rear thrust angle 30 psi front tire pressure, 27 rear tire pressure set cold. do not run the motor until 48 hours minimum after you install the pan. clean any sealer out of the pan bolt holes and ideally run a tap thru the holes. torque the bolts to 100 inch pounds. add sealer to the exterior areas where the pan and block mate. good luck, howard |
Originally Posted by Banzai-Racing
(Post 9802229)
RTV sealant and oil pan brace, no gasket: http://banzai-racing.com/store/FD_oil_pan_brace.html
http://banzai-racing.com/store/media...3s_opb_kit.jpg |
No, and we will not ever add it one. It compomises the design, as explained in these two threads, in great detail:
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...oil+pan+groove https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...oil+pan+groove |
there are many versions of this " right stuf" ?
all are presurized cans? it is a spray? http://cgi.ebay.com/Permatex-The-Rig...item3a56589480 is this the same? thanks |
guys,
the right stuff is a presurized can and i cannot find any near me. is the "ultra black" the same ? the ultra black is described as an RTV sealant.what is the RTv means? thanks again |
Originally Posted by AchillesGr
(Post 9810359)
guys,
the right stuff is a presurized can and i cannot find any near me. is the "ultra black" the same ? the ultra black is described as an RTV sealant.what is the RTv means? thanks again RTV means "room-temperature vulcanizing." In other words, it cures (hardens) at room temperature. Dave |
Originally Posted by Howard Coleman CPR
(Post 9807961)
. i do hear good things about a Toyota sealer that you can probably source thru a Toyota dealer.
do not run the motor until 48 hours minimum after you install the pan. clean any sealer out of the pan bolt holes and ideally run a tap thru the holes. torque the bolts to 100 inch pounds. add sealer to the exterior areas where the pan and block mate. good luck, howard the 48 wait is REALLY REALLY important. |
I need to get the oil pan brace
be careful to not get the right stuff on your clothes, it doesn't come off, it also doesn't work as a modelling agent, you can't make a mound of it and sculpt it with an x-acto knife. |
Originally Posted by KKMpunkrock2011
(Post 9811322)
I need to get the oil pan brace
be careful to not get the right stuff on your clothes, it doesn't come off, it also doesn't work as a modelling agent, you can't make a mound of it and sculpt it with an x-acto knife. For reals! Found out the hard way...there apparently is NO WAY to get that crap off...well other than burning the portion off and a touch of sewing would probably do the trick. The black stuff should be good to go like DaveW said. IMO the 48 wait should be increased to 72. ~Shar |
Originally Posted by AchillesGr
(Post 9810341)
there are many versions of this " right stuf" ?
all are presurized cans? it is a spray? thanks No, it is not a spray. It comes out like toothpaste but you don't have to squeeze it because it's already under pressure. Very easy to apply. Yes the link you have shows the correct product. Remeber it's Permatex item #25223 if you want to shop for it elsewhere. Steve |
I think "The Right Stuff" is the best but no matter what you use be sure and clean the surfaces well with acetone or laquer thinner. Remove all traces of oil. Run all threads with a tap and install the motor mounts and torque at this time also.
|
guys hello,
it is imposible to find the right stuff. none ships it to greece. do anyone of you know who ships these to greece or can help someway? i can find the ultra black, gray and the blue i think. can i use any of those? thanks |
With that choice, use the Ultra Gray. Next choice if gray is not available is ultra-black. Blue tends to usually be non-hardening stuff (easily removeable), good only in very low stress areas or with gaskets.
Also, many "gasket-maker" RTV's have very low adhesion, and will probably not work properly in this application. That is why the choice of sealant is so important. Dave |
You can use Loctites liquid gasket. I can buy it in all the big auto-stores here in Sweden so you must have it in greece too. I dont know the name of the product (i can check tomorrow tho) but the tube is white and the silicone is blue. :) It works exactly as "the right stuff", which i have used before with the same result - good.
Hope that helps. |
I used HONDABOND, should be available at any Honda dealership/outlet. With a pan brace, no leaks now for two years.
|
Zebb , can you find the loctite version that you used?
thanks guys. |
Originally Posted by Karack
(Post 9807998)
have you guys finally started milling the grooves into the braces?
i prefer the milled grooves as it fits better and give bit more structural rigidity. I know some people disagree but is a fact of physics.. Otherwise, mazda themselves wouldn't of put those ridges there on a simple pressed sheet metal. |
Originally Posted by AchillesGr
(Post 9815437)
Zebb , can you find the loctite version that you used?
thanks guys. Dont forget to clean the surfaces with acetone! Thats very important. |
thanks Zebb!!
i found the 5926 and a 587 that seems it is newer. |
Originally Posted by Herblenny
(Post 9815665)
Those will be David Garfinkles oil pan braces. I have them on all my rotaries and also going to get him to make couple of them for my 20Bs..
Originally Posted by Herblenny
(Post 9815665)
i prefer the milled grooves as it fits better and give bit more structural rigidity. I know some people disagree but is a fact of physics.. Otherwise, Mazda themselves wouldn't of put those ridges there on a simple pressed sheet metal.
I am not going to turn this into yet another "groove-y" thread. As I said earlier this has been covered in great detail. Machining the grove reduces the amount of pressure exerted on the pan in the areas where it needs it most (between the bolt holes). You are right it is a matter of physics, create a cavity for the ridge to fit in and there is no pressure, pretty simple. This post explains the physics in a very basic way https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...6&postcount=13 |
Originally Posted by Banzai-Racing
(Post 9817737)
We have been offering the brace for the 20B for over a year http://banzai-racing.com/store/20B_oil_pan_brace.html
Originally Posted by Banzai-Racing
(Post 9817737)
I am not going to turn this into yet another "groove-y" thread.
For instance, on an FD, if your oil pan brace is used, it will have to flatten factory oil pan grooves by your brace in order to be used correctly in term of putting equal pressure. Otherwise, most of the pressure will be on the raised groove themselves. Also, why would I pay $120 for one when I was getting Garfinkles for about $100 and I don't have to crush the factory grooves (if all could be flatten out in equal pressure). Second, my years of science classes and physic courses... but mainly just my basic knowledge I have, tells me that without a groove, the metal could be bent certain ways. Just think about it... its harder to bend the metal where the groove is vs with out the groove (try on your factory oil pan). That's another reason why i'm getting Garfinkle's because of that.. even for the 20B where its not necessary as no grooves are on the pan but I would want that because it would be stronger (another form of holding the engine together (torqure). I also read a scientific paper on this 2-3 years ago as I got into this debate with someone.. But I don't remember where that was. It showed how much stronger the metal got by putting a groove. Either case, this thread is about sharing why we do what we do. If I don't make sense to someone and think flat cut piece of metal is better than other than that's fine with me. I personally just trying to give my 2 cents.. I know all of us on here are smart enough to make our own decisions :) |
Originally Posted by Herblenny
(Post 9817881)
Yes, I've seen that you offer 20B pan brace. But I am a believer that the grooving provides extra strength to support the 20B... even though its flat.
Originally Posted by Herblenny
(Post 9817881)
I also don't want to get into this debate... But I have to at least share my thoughts and let others decide..
Originally Posted by Herblenny
(Post 9817881)
For instance, on an FD, if your oil pan brace is used, it will have to flatten factory oil pan grooves by your brace in order to be used correctly in term of putting equal pressure. Otherwise, most of the pressure will be on the raised groove themselves.:)
And more specifically this post showing the exact opposite of what you are describing: https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=15
Originally Posted by Herblenny
(Post 9817881)
Also, why would I pay $120 for one when I was getting Garfinkles for about $100 and I don't have to crush the factory grooves (if all could be flatten out in equal pressure).
1) Our brace comes with a stud kit & nuts, the "other" comes with inferior bolts that can not be torqued without stripping the aluminum and often times break off in the steel housings. 2) Our brace is plated to prevent rusting, we have heard from multiple people that shortly after installation, the "other" brace started rusting 3) We have had numerous people switch to our brace after developing leaks with the "other" brace 4) We always have them in stock, no waiting.. The list actually goes on, but I will stop there....
Originally Posted by Herblenny
(Post 9817881)
Second, my years of science classes and physic courses... but mainly just my basic knowledge I have, tells me that without a groove, the metal could be bent certain ways. Just think about it... its harder to bend the metal where the groove is vs with out the groove (try on your factory oil pan). That's another reason why i'm getting Garfinkle's because of that.. even for the 20B where its not necessary as no grooves are on the pan but I would want that because it would be stronger (another form of holding the engine together (torqure).
Originally Posted by Herblenny
(Post 9817881)
I also read a scientific paper on this 2-3 years ago as I got into this debate with someone.. But I don't remember where that was. It showed how much stronger the metal got by putting a groove.
|
LOL! You said you don't want to get into this but at the same time YOU ALSO do :)
I'm not talking about sheet metal "bead" but thicker metal such as the ones Garfinkle is using and yours and putting a 'groove'. Also, Garfinkles brace does come with hardwares and I believe Jason from RX7store.net also sells them. Also the groove David Garfinkle puts is rounded groove and there is a reason for being round/cylindrical groove vs flat. This take much more time and its well thought of. I've already expressed my opinion and I'll drop it at this time. those of you wanting to know about why, I'll be happy to explain via PM or you could do your own research about this. |
Originally Posted by Herblenny
(Post 9818036)
LOL! You said you don't want to get into this but at the same time YOU ALSO do .
Originally Posted by Herblenny
(Post 9818036)
I'm not talking about sheet metal "bead" but thicker metal such as the ones Garfinkle is using and yours and putting a 'groove'. Also, Garfinkles brace does come with hardwares and I believe Jason from RX7store.net also sells them..
|
Originally Posted by Banzai-Racing
(Post 9818078)
When someone is trying to push an inferior product from a member that is banned from this site. I said I didn't want to get into a debate yet I am not going to back away.
Originally Posted by Banzai-Racing
(Post 9818078)
As previously mentioned it comes with bolts, NOT studs & nuts. Bolts break in the steel housings and strip the aluminum when torqued. You can glaze right by the rusting problem all you like. Does not look like Jason carries the brace any longer or a stud kit which would have been extra anyway. So again $100 for an inferior product that you need to buy the correct hardware to install and coat with something vs. our brace that comes with everything for $20 more. Not really a tough call.
Either case, thanks for your constructive argument over this topic and your negative portrait of me because I was banned here before. Thanks for your time :) |
I could not care less if you were banned, I was referring to the manufacturer of the brace you so highly praise; https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...3&postcount=16
However it should explained to people that you have an ulterior motive to your stance based off an "affiliation" with vendors on another forum. Of which the particular one in question is banned from this site. Logic and reasoning, as well as superior quality and timely delivery, would be the reasons why we sell so many of our braces every week all over the world. |
Originally Posted by Banzai-Racing
(Post 9818303)
I could not care less if you were banned, I was referring to the manufacturer of the brace you so highly praise; https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...3&postcount=16
Originally Posted by Banzai-Racing
(Post 9818303)
However it should explained to people that you have an ulterior motive to your stance based off an "affiliation" with vendors on another forum. Of which the particular one in question is banned from this site.
Also, no one on the other forum pays a fee so I don't gain any benefit from it. I think that might be the cause of David getting ban from here... not really because he is providing inferior product nor scamming people. Also, he has directly donated his time and money sponsoring various events and help others put their cars together. I'm sure you do the same so getting ban on this forum shouldn't be an issue or be brought up as an argument. [/QUOTE]Logic and reasoning would be the reason why we sell so many of our braces every week all over the world.[/QUOTE] Or maybe people just don't know other brace exists... Wouldn't you agree that might be a case also? I understand you pay this forum to advertise and your product is easily seen. And especially knowing now that David Garfinkle was banned, I could see how no one might not know of his products. No offense to you, but as logic and reasoning is conserned comparing the two, I think most will pick Garfinkles when examined in person (Regarding studs vs bolts are I think more of a preference and shouldn't be over tightened anyhow.. Maybe you have to over tighten because you need to flatten the 'beads' on the oem pan??). Most people that have seen my brace (I bought 3 from Garfinkle) have picked over yours. Pure and simple based on design of the brace. And these are highly educated people and some with engineering degrees. Also, David can easily make the brace without the grooves and sell it much cheaper, but he believes and I believe that there is a benefit of having the grooves. Again, I can't agree with your statement about his being inferior.. |
It's callled a "bead" in the sheet-metal pan and a machined "groove" on the brace. Potato, potahtoe.
The links don't seem to prove anything. They are Banzai's explanation on why Banzai didn't put "grooves" in the brace. I'm sure it has nothing to do with machining/production costs. I defend products I believe in. I like Garfinkle's brace better...that's why I bought one and I credit a leak free pan for the past two years. Took me 15 minutes to paint it. FWIW, I also defended Banzai's differential brace from attacks on this forum for the same reasons.... because I believe in it's design. I've also confidently recommended Banzai's other products too. Putting a completely flat brace against the beaded pan makes no sense. IMO, torquing against that raised bead will flatten sheet metal and affect the torque...probably immediately, but definitely over time. I also understood that one principle behind a brace is to reduce flex of the layered block, not to create localized "pressure points" on the mating surfaces. With no groove, reducing flex/adding rigidity seems impossible. This is my rationale. But if there are testing results (not anecdotal) to the contrary I'd be happy to consider them. And I invite correction, but if/when Garfinlke was banned, I'd bet it was because he was an unauthorized vendor. In other words, it was a commercial decision. |
Originally Posted by Sgtblue
(Post 9818817)
The links don't seem to prove anything. They are Banzai's explanation on why Banzai didn't put "grooves" in the brace.
Originally Posted by Sgtblue
(Post 9818817)
I'm sure it has nothing to do with machining/production costs.
I defend products I believe in. I like Garfinkle's brace better...that's why I bought one and I credit a leak free pan for the past two years. Took me 15 minutes to paint it.
Originally Posted by Sgtblue
(Post 9818817)
FWIW, I also defended Banzai's differential brace from attacks on this forum for the same reasons.... because I believe in it's design. I've also confidently recommended Banzai's other products too.
Originally Posted by Sgtblue
(Post 9818817)
Putting a completely flat brace against the beaded pan makes no sense. IMO, torquing against that raised bead will flatten sheet metal and affect the torque...probably immediately, but definitely over time. I also understood that one principle behind a brace is to reduce flex of the layered block, not to create localized "pressure points" on the mating surfaces. With no groove, reducing flex/adding rigidity seems impossible.
|
Like I said, there was no need for this thread to turn into yet another "groove-y" thread. All the OP wanted to know is if he should use a gasket or not.
What you fail to realize is that I have an Engineering Degree and arguing with you is the equivalent of debating a topic with a 10mm wrench. There is nothing to be gained from it. I am sure many people question your reasons for visiting this forum, you created your own because you thought this one was so bad. I find it interesting that you need to come here to push your event as well as inferior products from vendors that are not allowed to sell here. Maybe you just don't have the traffic that you had expected at your forum? I have seen you start no less then two separate threads pushing what has to be the worst design for motor mounts yet to be introduced to the market, made by (no surprise here) the same vendor of the brace you are pushing. No ulterior motive? In the very least you are attempting to generate sales so that he can sponsor your event. It is more than that though isn't it? I have witnessed in multiple threads now that you are the type of personality that needs to have the last word so that you can feel like you "won", so have at it. I will not be responding to your posts, this way you can have your victory, as hollow as it will be.
Originally Posted by Sgtblue
(Post 9818817)
It's callled a "bead" in the sheet-metal pan and a machined "groove" on the brace. Potato, potahtoe.
A bead is represented by having an indentation on one side and a protrusion on the opposite surface. For example the oil pan has a bead stamped into the edge to attempt to make the the sheet metal more rigid. It is represented by a concave channel on the mating face and a convex "bump" on the outer surface. A groove is an indentation without a corresponding protrusion on the opposing surface. AchillesGr- I am truly sorry for unwittingly aiding Herblenny in the pollution of your thread |
I'll add another rather useless post...
Originally Posted by Banzai-Racing
(Post 9819346)
...What you fail to realize is that I have an Engineering Degree and arguing with you is the equivalent of debating a topic with a 10mm wrench. There is nothing to be gained from it...
Originally Posted by Banzai-Racing
(Post 9819346)
There is a huge difference between a bead and a groove.
A bead is represented by having an indentation on one side and a protrusion on the opposite surface. For example the oil pan has a bead stamped into the edge to attempt to make the the sheet metal more rigid. It is represented by a concave channel on the mating face and a convex "bump" on the outer surface. A groove is an indentation without a corresponding protrusion on the opposing surface... Respectfully, Dave |
Originally Posted by Banzai-Racing
(Post 9819346)
What you fail to realize is that I have an Engineering Degree and arguing with you is the equivalent of debating a topic with a 10mm wrench. There is nothing to be gained from it.
Originally Posted by Banzai-Racing
(Post 9819346)
I am sure many people question your reasons for visiting this forum, you created your own because you thought this one was so bad. I find it interesting that you need to come here to push your event as well as inferior products from vendors that are not allowed to sell here. Maybe you just don't have the traffic that you had expected at your forum?
Regarding my event, its an event for the Rotary enthusiasts.. Its to bring enthusiasts together and talk about products and such. Are you against such events?? Also, please be mindful that I do in fact also promote your product.... as stated earlier. Please think about being professional instead of guessing my intent when I'm trying to advice of others of options available and issues pertaining to certain product. I think what I did is not much more than someone suggesting what sealant to use and what brand. Just because David Garfinkle being banned here does not make any difference between the examples given.. as I myself didn't not know until you mentioned it.
Originally Posted by Banzai-Racing
(Post 9819346)
I have seen you start no less then two separate threads pushing what has to be the worst design for motor mounts yet to be introduced to the market, made by (no surprise here) the same vendor of the brace you are pushing. No ulterior motive? In the very least you are attempting to generate sales so that he can sponsor your event. It is more than that though isn't it?
So, let me understand what your saying here... instead of explaining why, you just label any other product sold by Garfinkle to be inferior? I'm also wondering if Garfinkle were to be on this forum as a vendor, would you also state such thing?? Because I think that would be against this forum policy. Can you also think of any other products on this forum to be inferior?? I would like to know this... How about from another paying vendor on this forum?? Regarding you thinking that I specifically pushing David Garfinkle's products.... I post about any products I put on my car. I post about good, bad, or useless. Go check out my build section. I recently spent hundreds on FEED trunk piece and I said, I wasn't sure if it was practical.. So, was I lying?? And if so, what gain did I have for saying that?? Also, me trying to inform about other rotary products available to fellow rotorhead is not against forum rules. Just because they aren't a paying vendor doesn't mean someone can't post about that product. If that's the case, there are much larger vendors that people write about that never paid a dime to this forum. Again, please stop stereotyping me... I'm sure there are people contacting you thanking what you've provided for them or you posting about certain products that people found it useful. I also get PM's and such when people found out about specific products because I tested or posted on the forum with my review... Just as someone in Mobile, AL contacting me asking me about if he should convert his auto FD to manual or keep it auto?? I suggested your harness adaptor as one of the solution to keeping auto and use PFC.. Why, because I have one :)
Originally Posted by Banzai-Racing
(Post 9819346)
I have witnessed in multiple threads now that you are the type of personality that needs to have the last word so that you can feel like you "won", so have at it. I will not be responding to your posts, this way you can have your victory, as hollow as it will be.
And if its infact inferior, I would like to know the true reasons and be able to debate to show why its inferior... instead of bringing personal matter at hand. Again, I'm just responding to your comments and if you stop, I'll stop.. Or if you answer my questions and explain why its inferior, I would state to you that it make sense and tell you. its not about who win or loose but what we could learn from this. |
and the winner is..... (?)
|
I'm having great luck with right stuff and no gasket.
I side with the grooved pan brace school of thinking. Here's why: In mazda's oil pan design, they sacrificed a small amount of sealing area in order to add rigidity to the pan. If the pan flange were ideally rigid, the pressure from the bolts would be equally distributed everywhere but the recessed area due to the bead. With a brace grooved to match the protrusions from the bead, you are effectively increasing the thickness of the pan flange AND maintaining the same areas of pressure. These areas include around the bolt holes and either side of the beads. You could trace an unbroken line from a point all the way around the pan and back to it's origin where there is an even amount of presssure along that line. With an ungrooved brace, if I'm understanding the design correctly (as a flat piece of metal), you are transferring pressure only to the raised bead. This sacrifices pressure between bolt holes where there is no bead. In addition, most of the pressure would be at the surface areas where the bead transitions to flat flange and not all the way across the width of the flange due to the metal deforming without any reinforcement. At the same time, I can understand why a groove is undesireable based on the fact that it reduces thickness, reduces cross sectional area and creates a stress concentration, but increased thickness and a radiused groove could go a long way to negate those effects. |
Just drysump it and call it a day. :D
|
does anybody have pictures from how much ultra grey to use on the oil pan to seal ???
|
I have no pictures, but the Service Manual says to use a 4mm to 6mm continuous bead just inboard of the bolt holes. Page C-79. There are pictures in the FSM that might help.
|
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:32 PM. |
© 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands