Oh Boy, could I possibly have coolant seal failure?
 

Need the think tank as I've heard it called before:

Here are my symptoms and I am hoping it is not as serious as the beginning of "O" ring failure.

1. Immediately after a run I get overflow of coolant from coolant reservoir.
2. After cooling the first time I start engine I get low coolant buzzer.
3. I add coolant each time and its about 2 inches low.
4. At this point no excessive white smoke from exhaust
5. This has happened about 8 times in a row. Each time I run the car, same symptoms appear.
6. Stock temp gauge does not indicate overheating but I understand stock gauge isn't very good at detecting until it is too late.
7. Have tried replacing all the caps and problem still happens.
8. Coolant appears to be drawn into reservoir but will not flow back into the engine.
9. No noticeable loss of power, yet.
10. Do not smell coolant in the exhaust (I think).
11. Hear gurgling sound coming from engine while engine is cooling with trunk hood open.
12. A small gremlin is dancing with delight on top of car while yelling profane comments at me. Ok I lied about that part :p:

Have you done the "champagne bubble" test to see if exhaust gas is getting into your cooling system?

When your car is cold, remove the filler neck cap. Top off the coolant/water. Start the car. Let it ilde and come up to operating temp and watch the coolant a the filler neck*. If you see a steady stream of air bubbles you most likely have an O-ring leak that is allowing air/exhaust into your cooling system. Bummer.

*Some guys jam a funnel into the filler neck to allow for some coolant expansion while the car heats up.

Good luck!

You may also want to search this forum for the following key words: "O-ring fix" and/or "block weld"

What condition are your turbos in? they can eat coolant as well. Hopefully you dont have a ORing problem.

If you aren't getting white smoke or hard cold starting, then you are probably fine. Coolant flowing to the overflow and not returning is a sign of a bad/improper AST cap.

You could also have a bad connection from the hose to the overflow tank allowing air to be sucked into the system, but your symptoms sound a lot like mine when my o-rings failed.

Let the car sit for a few days and have someone else start it while you watch the tailpipe. If it's only a minor leak then you won't get constant white smoke, just a puff at startup.

You might also pressure test the cooling system, once with the car cold and once with the car at operating temp (thermostat open, but not running!). Let it sit for several hours with the system pressurized and see how much bleeds off.

-Scott

I'll vote for a leak in your coolant recovery system, not O'ring failure. You wouldn't be constantly spilling coolant from the overflow if it were being drawn back into the system when cooled down. Most common failures are the AST cap, hose to overflow tank, or filler neck cap.

I had an 'O' ring failure without the white smoke/coolant burning. Evidently with my failure it was JUST enough of a leak to let combustion pressure overpressurize the cooling system and thus force coolant into the overflow tank, yet not bad enough that the roughly 13 psi the cooling system generated could force coolant back into the combustion chambers. Makes sense I guess....13 psi vs 140 psi. I too had changed all the caps thinking (hoping/praying) that it was not an 'O' ring. But the litmus test for this is to take a cold engine and take off the filler neck cap and watch for bubbles. I had them immediately. Also, listen for a 'rushing' sound in the heater core, another tell-tale. Or simply take a coolant sample to a qualified auto repair facility/testing lab and they can test it for hydrocarbon traces and you will know for sure.
The GOOD news is that it sound like IF you have a bad 'O' ring, it is not REAL bad yet. So you are a prime candidate for the block weld routine. Also, while most people use CRC Block-Weld or one of the many others that has the suspended copper particles, there is a new product I saw hyped on several automotive tv shows. It is called Steel Seal and it seems to be The Cure for nearly everything. Someone is going to have to be the guinea pig and try this....may as well be you! Lol.....
Here is a link:
http://www.steelseal.com/eng/home.html

Don't jump to conclusions about an o-ring failure. The first thing to do is make sure that you get all of the air out of the cooling system. If your ast cap was bad, you may have residual air still in there.

When the car is cold, remove the throttle body coolant line from the back of the TB. This will allow air to escape the system when you refill with coolant. Remove both coolant caps. Fill the ast, and wait to see if it goes down. Fill until it won't go down. Keep an eye on the TB during this. If it starts to overflow, replace the hose. When the ast won't take any more coolant, cap it. Now fill at the filler tank. This will get rid of most (not all) of the air from your system. You will probably have to fill a little bit at the filler neck a few more times. Doing this for a few days will remove all of the air from your system *IF* you have no other problems.

Don't forget to replace the TB coolant line :D

I Agree with bajaman
 

I just finished replacing a engine and for a month I had the same issue then it just got worse, until I couldn't even start it. That's when I had to have it towed to the house, replace plugs, and one final drive to the shop.

Ok, then if you agree with bajaman, do you also think I should try Steelseal first? Anyway there is no question now. I did the champagne bubble test and definately saw the bubble right away. Also noticed more white smoke than I noticed before so I guess I'm going to have to do something quick and hope one of the shortcut fixes works. I'll check the steelseal link and the crc block weld search to see what I come up with. One more question: Could this have anything to do with the fact that I just had a new clutch put in recently just a few wks ago? Would removing and putting back the transmission have possibly caused the seal to fail quicker? After I had this done I read somewhere that this is a good time to re-torque the main engine bolts under the flywheel and I don't know if my shop performed this or not. Just asking.

Heres a link to the block weld fix if you have to use it.http://www.fd3s.net/o-ring_fix.html

The bolts should have been re-torqued for peace of mind, try the rad-weld stuff as you have nothing to lose.

Worst thing it, engine out replace seals and get it ported. at least you internals arn't damaged yet so it wont cost you much for a rebuild.

Engine rebuild time or make me an offer!
 

Ok here's the deal. I've got the car up for sale right now. It has low orig miles and everthing else on the car is primo, good paint, interior, electricals, new trans and clutch. I'm thinking of just selling it *as-is* to one you rotorheads for a good price. Someone make me an offer and I might take it. Does anyone know how much I should pay for a re-build if all the internals are in good shape? Is rotary-resurrection the way to go? Just considering all my options. So far I'm not really in favor of doing a half-assed crc-weld or similar product. You know what I'm saying, just do it right or let someone else do it right.

Basic rebuild kit isn't much, but the time to do it i.e labour costs more. phone round to see if it'll be worth doing before you sell it. You might get your money back and more, you might not. Or block weld it and get some ricer to buy it.

Thanks for the advice. Problem is there are not many rotary specialist shops around here in Sacramento Calif area. I have one that I've been working with but they are expensive. The guy mentioned to me last time I was in for transmission work, that they do new engines only and charge $15K US. Well that is out of the question for me. There is another guy I will check with that is a member here. He is not too far out of the way in Marysville which is about 2 hr drive I think. (Karack is his screen name). I've never used him so would be a risk but he would probably be cheaper. Wish I could do some of this stuff myself but I'm a paper pusher; what do I know about replacing engines :wallbash:

There is a simple test for this -- you can measure whether or not combustion exhaust is getting into the coolant. Then you will know. I don't think you have exhausted (no pun intended) the possibilities yet.

And I've heard several good things about Karack, but don't have any personal experience.

Personally, I think that's a good call. I'm not sold on the blockweld stuff either. I'm not sure how friendly that stuff would be to turbo coolant passages and the heater core.

$15K for a new engine is wacked. A brand new rebuild with new turbos and the works will only run around $6K, and figure another grand to put take out the old and put in the new...so $7K would be THE most I'd ever pay to have someone put in a new engine.
You can save yourself half that by doing the work yourself, getting a rebuild and re-using your turbos since they sound fine.
It all depends on if you want to keep the car and invest a little to make it perfect again, or to cut your losses and sell it. Look at it this way: If you fix it, regardless of it you keep it or not, it is worth just that much more. These things are just worthless paperweights without a working engine......you can't hardly GIVE them away.
If you fix it you can have pretty good assurances that it will be (relatively) trouble free for several years.

Isn't the champagne bubble test pretty definitive? Also I have now noticed that when I start the engine up there are tiny water droplets coming out of the exhaust with a little white smoke.

Yeah I want to fix it. I will PM Karack and see if he can help me out. I am not a mechanic. The most mechanical thing I have ever done is replace a radiator on a Toyota Corolla. On the 7 I have changed the oil myself and that's about it. I don't want to trust myself doing the work myself and experiment on my own car. How bout you lend me yours and I'll see how it goes, lol.

Did I mention that you need to clear the air from your system before making any judgements.

My coolant seals took a shit on me on my original engine with 63k miles on the clock. Never really figured out why, i hadn't overheated the car or even ran it hot in the previous 3 years. As previously stated, if it is the motor at least it's a cheap rebuild--you can reuse all your hard parts b/c of no detonation/apex seal damage. The important thing is to not jump to any conclusions and do anything crazy until you are sure the motor is bad. I personally think the block weld treatment will create more problems than it temporarily fixes.

I think I will have my coolant analyzed for exaust gases as has been suggested before proceeding with any rebuild. This would be the definitive test, would it not?

I never had any big problem burbing my system before this. After 8 top offs wouldn't that be the long method of burping the system? Coolant or water is definately coming out the exhaust and I do have light white smoke at start up. Bubbles are coming up thru the filler neck on warmed up engine as well.
I haven't noticed any loss of power though. Last spark plug change it was suggested to me that a rebuild could be in my near future. The plugs were a bit contaminated with possibly coolant. But then after driving it the mechanic said he might have been premature. Now with all the other evidence mounting is does not look good.

Coolant on the plugs isn't good. I don't see how your mechanic could gain anything from driving the car that would change that. Also, $15k for a rebuild is laughable. At the most, you're looking at 5k, and that includes a new reman motor. As I stated before, you are looking at a cheap rebuild.

I recently had a similar experience, with good results so far:

In February, my car started consuming coolant. The "low coolant" buzzer and light would come on, and stay on for as long as 45-50 seconds sometimes.
Trip distance didn't seem to make a difference, the same amount of coolant was consumed regardless of mileage traveled.
Sometimes the car would consume a LOT of coolant: I remember using a full 500mL water bottle to top the coolant level off.

I found that the coolant line coming from the top of the AST (near the cap) was a bit loose, so I clamped it down with a hose clamp. I also installed a water temperature gauge to keep tabs on the engine, in hopes of avoiding overheating.

The car kept consuming coolant for a while, and I kept feeding it. Sometimes the overflow tank would spill onto the ground, just like the problem you describe. A 'champagne bubble test' indicates that I've probably got a coolant seal issue. I kept topping the coolant off every time the car was cold, and took extra care to let the car warm up before driving hard. Eventually, the problem went away. My car hasn't been low on coolant in over a month. Your mileage may vary...


-s-

Scotty:
Encouraging story. My problem does seem very much the same as yours. Even though there seemed to be a problem with my plugs I've never know the car to be difficult to start. It always fires right up. Once the engine is warmed up nicely the white smoke goes away. I'm going to just keep topping it off as you did. It never seems to get very low on coolant so far, just a couple of inches. This coolant problem just needs to go away. I'm going to have a hard time explaining to a buyer that he just needs to top off the coolant every morning :uhh:

This is crazy. In the last few months I've been pouring money into this car. It all started with me deciding that this was the year to get my air conditioner all straightened out. Then the 5th gear synchro problem followed by the clutch replacment. Now this. Somebody just shoot me! I know my wife is about to. :rl:

Silverstone - It is good that you acknowledge your limited mechanical/repair experience as part of this thread. A lot of guys who only have a pair of Vise-Grips and a 6 pc socket set think they are ready to go do a rebuild...lol! It sounds like you have lined up some good help hopefully. Just to recap a lot that has already been said in various posts, it is important to understand that ANY sort of block-weld treatment is indeed just a temporary fix. I had a devil of a time getting my heater core unplugged, for example. There are also some people that have reported having difficulties getting a block-sealed engine apart, I think there are even some rebuilders that WON'T touch one. You seem to have a relatively minor leak (if at all) and thus you are a good candidate for a (relatively) inexpensive rebuild. The 'bad' part of all this is that it takes just as much time and effort to pull an engine and fix a mild problem as it does a major problem. You just save some bucks on some parts is all, i.e. you don't have to replace trashed rotors and/or rotor housings or irons. That is about it.
You should definitely do the coolant gasses test to help you finally and for sure evaluate your leak possibility. Keep in mind that there is a big difference between a car that is "smoking" at start up due to normal condensation vs a car that is burning coolant. Condensation is just water vapor and it dissipates very rapidly. Burning coolant has a thicker, heavier consistency and tends to hang around a bit longer.
Just for grins I just went out and pulled the AST cap and filler neck caps off my FD and started it and let it run a minute or so. No bubbles. Not one. Whereas when I knew I had a leaky 'O' ring it would bubble immediately, which is what you report.
But there are also a host of other causes which can exhibit similar symptoms, the main ones being ANY hose or hose connection that is leaking. There have been threads on here about people that were just about ready to pull their engines and then they replaced one or two or ALL of their hoses and it fixed their problems. Some of these hoses are little BASTARDS to get to, some are wrapped in protective sleeves that can conceal small leaks.
You will likely want to replace these hoses anyway. I know, it is expensive and a hassle, but I did it to mine when I replaced my engine. Every single hose is brand new in the entire engine bay. Coolant, vacuum, pressure lines...the works. I would not hesitate for a second to hop in my car and circumnavigate the U.S., that is the confidence I have in it now.
You are kind of at a crossroads regarding your FD, we understand that. Every one of us that have owned these cars for 3, 5, 7, 10, or 13 years even have ALL been at that point where you scream to the heavens, "WHEN IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH???" :wallbash:
And sometimes you just have to walk away for a month or two (because these cars can't or shouldn't be anything resembling a daily driver, or a REQUIRED daily driver anyhow) and think about the cost-to-benefit ratio of the car. Does it bring you the joy to offset the pain? Are other bills being let go just to pay for FD expenses? Has your wife or girlfriend 'cut you off' with the ultimatum of, "Okay...it is the car or ME!" :rlaugh:
These are the things to ask oneself when looking at spending a bunch of money and time on these cars.

If coolant is shooting out of the exhaust then there's no reason for any more testing.

Also if the engine hasn't been overheated there's a good chance all the housings are good and the problem is simply a bad o ring so I'd take the car to Rick's Rotary shop and have him do a rebuild for you. I'm a long way from CA but I've heard good things about this shop and owned a car with one of his rebuilt engines that was really good.

Good luck :)

Thanks for all the wise words from everyone. Well I just started it up this morning to sort of ponder the situation. It started right up with no hesistation. Water vapor came out the exhaust for the 1st 3 to 5 min. and then was completely clear. Anyone know where I can get the exhaust gas check of the coolant? Right now I feel that I most likely have the very beginnings of a coolant o-ring leak, perhaps minor right now but will only get worse. I have inspected the hoses fairly well and all are tight with clamps in place. Can't see any coolant leaking from them at all. Here is the brief history of my deciding to sell it. Just after I got the AC fixed I decided this was a good year to sell it since everything worked now and it was in excellent condition. Decided to replace it with a new Pontiac Solstice GXP 2007 model. Then the clutch and tranny needed replacing after a friend blew out my 5th gear synchro. Got that done and figured since my new car isn't going to be delivered until Fall at best I would start out with a high price $18,500 and just see how it goes. I figured I could get at least $15K for it later on if it doesn't sell over the summer. Now I'm not sure what to do. I could just keep it and not fix it and wait, or fix it and sell it for maybe 15K or not fix it and probably only get around 8K for it. After I get a good estimate I'll decide, but I will verify with the exhaust gas in coolant first.

I looked into this SteelSeal and it looked possibly worth trying. The only thing is that is says right in their literature online that it is NOT for fixing broken seals and is only for cracked heads and blocks. But then it does say it works for blown head gaskets so maybe it would work for a blown coolant seal. I've got a call into them to ask them what they think.

Yep. That crap gets into everything. Don't expect your heater core to remain unblocked ........... among other things.

Sounds like you have not tried to remove all of the air from the system as I advised earlier.

You have a nice low milage FD. Dont mess it up by pouring anything other than what is supposed to be in the cooling system into it. Sell it as a car that needs a new engine if it needs one. Or get a reman and be done with it.

i know karack and he does great work but if i recall he has a big waiting list, you should contact him and really fair prices :bigthumb:

I tried. Apparently his waiting list is so long he isn't returning calls. I sent him a PM and left a phone message 3 days ago.

Let me see, after 8 top offs, wouldn't the air be out by now? After seeing those champagne bubbles coming up and seeing a dark sludge in my overflow tank on the dip stick, I figure it's just grasping at straws at this point. Besides I used the burbing technique in the 3rd gen FAQ. I really don't think it was an air bubble or even the caps at this point. I put my old caps back on. They are the better Mazda ones and don't seem worn at all. I had my AST replaced only 4000 miles ago and it came with a new cap. Karack is apparently too busy to even return my call to him.

BTW I called the SteelSeal people and the guys was so anxious to see if his product worked on rotaries that he's sending me a bottle for free. He says there are no suspended particles in the stuff and that there is an antedote if anything gets clogged, White Vinegar. I've been exploring all possibilities from Block weld to LS1 conversion.

Sorry I tried to help. I guess that the difficulty of my suggestion was just too much for you to try. Good luck with your rebuild.

Dear Adam,

I humbly beg your forgiveness. It was a good suggestion but actually what I'm planning on doing is bringing it into my local Sacramento shop and have them thoroughly investigate all the hoses, thermostat and yes, any possible air bubbles. I want the professionals to completely rule out all these other possible causes of losing coolant before I get too deep into the re-build idea or even the SteelSeal. I'm going to wait until my free bottle of SteelSeal arrives and give that to the shop as well to use if they do find the o-ring is bad. Even this steel seal product is difficult to use and involves removing the thermostat (don't even know where it is), possibly bypassing the heating core if that is possible, and there is also a step where you are supposed to remove one of the spark plugs to remove backpressure I guess. All this stuff is beyond my meager oil changing skills. I've had bubbles in my cooling system before after changing coolant and they always resolved themselves by topping off a couple of times and none of those times did I lose coolant out my overflow tank. There's something else going on here and I'm just hoping its a kinked hose somewhere but as I said before with the other symptoms it would be too much luck. But really your opinion is appreciated!

Update on my cooling seal problem
 

Ok I have made my final decision based on my detailed observations.
1. I am not going to use the Steel Seal product unless the problem gets worse.
2. I am going to continue to sell the car as-is.

Some observations:
1. I have had the car for 5 yrs but have put only 4000 miles on it as a weekend fun car.
2. I believe the car has had the problem since I bought it and it was not noticed by me because I never drove the car in hot weather or with the air conditioner on. The AC didn't work when I first got the car and that was also the reason I never drove in hot weather.
3. I have noticed that during a recent cool spell, I have been able to drive it and not get the coolant loss.
4. I recently got the AC fixed and so have been able to drive in hot weather and with the AC on and this is when the problem first presented itself.
5. I believe the motor is still in need of a rebuild but at this point it is not critical to get it fixed. If I see any coolant on the ground or get the low coolant buzzer, I can simply top it off with coolant as I've been doing. No overheating problem has been observed. The coolant seal probably has been compromised but is still a minor leak and is not causing any loss of power or allowing coolant to pass into combustion chamber. With the way that I drive the car I could possibly put off any major repair for years if I wanted to.
6. If I don't sell it right away, I will just hang on to it and get a full rebuild sometime down the line in 1 or 2 years.

had some problems with my voice mail, i have a bit of a list of PMs to sort through but i will get back to you shortly.

The black sludge in the recovery tank is a pretty good sign the seal has failed and combustion gases are getting into the coolant system. I did the block weld treatment on my first engine and after three years on the new motor am suffering no ill effects from doing it. I followed all the directions and the how to ion the forum and the only thing I'd do over is find away to heat up the engine without the thermostat as it took for ever to get all that damn soap concentrate outta the system before I added the block weld. I got 14 months more out of the motor and didn't baby it like I should have brfore total failure.

Another Update
 

Well another change. Karack responded to my desperate plea for help and I was able to speak to him (Ben) on the phone. He has been recommended by some in this forum and seems to really know what he's doing. It's a couple hours drive for me but his quotes for rebuild were the best yet so if my coolant seal is blown, I'm just going to have him fix it for me. The backlog is about 4 - 5 wks but that does not bother me. I've got lots of time as the 7 isn't my daily driver. First I'm going to set up an appt for him to diagnose my problem and then if it needs a rebuild, I'll have him do it when he is available. I'm so glad I found Karack! Thanks to everyone for pointing him out to me.