m2 upgrade
 

ok guys... over the weekend while driving my car, i noticed that i really don't need all that power. what i like is how quick the car is... not how fast. so now, i'm thinking about keeping the twin set-up. i was looking into the m2 ball bearing upgrade. now from what i understand, no one really likes it cause it still a seq set up.... have anyone make it non seq on the m2 upgrade... and does anyone here have the 99 up stock twin? is it as good as people say?? thanks for your time.

You might try a search for this, as there have been some recent discussions about these turbos. I'm interested too. If I purchase them, I will try to run them non-sequencial as well.

thanks for the info

Why dont you just go single? It doesnt make since to buy upgraded twins and run them Non Seq.

I also see no point in upgrading to M2 twins if you want to run them non-sequential. Then again, I don't understand why anyone other than a dedicated road racer would run non-sequential at all.

The whole point of the M2 twins is faster spool-up and the ability to run more boost. If you run them non-sequential, you have eliminated the faster spool-up advantages and might as well get a TS04 or Apexi RX-6 single instead.

If you can wait like a few weeks before you choose to upgrade, it will be worth it. Artguy will have dyno sheets on the M2 upgrades and KWIKRX7 will have dyno sheets on the BNR upgrades. If the dyno's don't seem very good, then go with a single. Since you don't mind the lag of the non-seq the single lag won't be much different.

yeah i'm not in hurry. my car is just sitting under the car cover right now anyways..(still waiting for parts)

My car is Non-sequential...I would rather have it sequential - for the instant low end power - but I'm too lazy to try and trouble shoot the vacum hose issues....

Re: m2 upgrade
 

HELL YES. They are as good as promised ... I got the RS/RZ turbos and, just wow. The spool-up time is close to instanteous and they flow much more than the old stockers (ahem, 2 rebuilds past now ... yes, lesson learned). Flow enough that they spike up to 12psi (DP, catback ... that's it) and hold around 11psi. Until the secondary kicks in and it starts to boost creep to 14-15 psi!!! The colder weather makes it even better/worse :rolleyes:.

But yes, the above posts are correct. If you like the quickness of the car, do NOT go non-sequential. The lag gets worse and the car will feel like a dog below 3500 rpm. At any rate, the pricing between the turbos is about the same. The efficiency improvements in the '99 spec turbos allow you to run higher boost, so you could run 14-15 psi fairly easily with the '99s. The M2 ball bearing turbo upgrades can run even higher amounts of boost though. They're both effectively doing the same thing: reducing the turbine wheel diameter and increasing the flow by manipulating the compressor wheel (adding fins, bigger wheel, etc). I don't think you can go wrong either way ... :)

If you like the "quicknes" of the car why not look elsewhere then the turbos to improve that quickness. Assumming you have the common mods of full exhaust air filter etc, how about upgrading your gearbox. Change the pinion gear to 4.5 or 4.7 and have a think about altering the gear ratios to suit your driving style or ambition.

You can look at your suspension to have the qhickness in and out of corners. After market springs, suspension, sway bars and strut braces are all options.

Look at improving how fast you build the revs. Under driven pulleys and a lightened flywheel will help these areas.

There are a lot more avenues to modifying a car then just looking into after market turbos. Hopefully this has given you something to consider.

I fail to realize why anyone would pay $3000 for an upgraded twin turbos when you can go single for that amount and get rid of all the unneccessary vacuum hoses and all the solenoids which always fail with sequential twins. Also, I STILL HAVEN'T SEEN ANY DYNO SHEETS yet with the M2 BB which justifies it's hefty $3000 price tag. I'd rather get the XS T04E or something for less than $3000

I don't think you can REALLY go single for $2995. That 3k is just the BEGINING. Most kits are around $3500 (for decent ones) and i've never seen a kit that is a direct bolt-on in the way that M2 or other upgraded twins are.

You gotta pay to have thae wastedate dump tube merged into the DP. You may need a different wastegate right off the bat (RX6B).

What are you gonna do about a blow off valve? How about a custom electric air pump so you can pass emissions?

How about having someone weld up some IC piping if you've got anything but the FMIC (wouldn't put one on MY car) the kits are usually inteded for... and likely a greddy elbow?

Not to mention you have to know WHAT to remove from all of the vaccuum/solonoid stuff, and but block-off plates. AND be able to do all this custom/install stuff yourself as opposed to reinstalling what you just took off and is in the factory manual.

I know of a few folks who have gone single.. one guy w/ an RX6 like yours, and it almost always involves some custom work, re-engineering, and serious downtime to do it right. And $$$

You are correct, there is no dyno info on M2s, but the concept and seat-of-the-pants reports are promising. AND, i believe that the quick-spooling nature of them might prove to produce a quicker car ON THE ROAD, than the high peak-hp singles that look good on dynos. I totally understand your misgivings, and i'm certainly not trying to get on your case... just pointing out that before everyone dismisses M2s as a too expensive waste of time, lets recognize that they have potential, and likely are cheaper and a hell of alot less hasle than a single. I can't wait to see some dyno sheets on them.

thanks for all the info guys.... no if i were to do a hose job and upgrade to a either the 99 spec or the m2's, i should not have too much problems with the vaccuum and stuff right..??

I dont have any problems with vacuum....

1fook fails to realize that there are people on here with cars who hate waiting for the power band...if you go single you got big lag..same thing goes if you run non seq......if you go m2 you have your power NOW...and thats how I like it...more boost...more power...and more response.

it was a learning experience being one of the first guys with the set...but there are more people running them now and more shops with experience tuning for them..not that that should have ever been an issue because tuning is not rocket science..was easy actually..just patient.

I really like the set. I love the instant respone of the m2 bb twins and would not ever go with anything else. I drive in the city and while going single would be fun and would simplify things I feel that it would be better for the country or open roads...I dont ever get that sort of thing in Orange County or LA and spend most my time darting around town and shredding tires from stoplight to stoplight.

1fook wanted evidence of their power...ask go racer..he saw my car fishtailing like a friggen king salmon when I upped the boost to 16lbs. I cant run more than 15 on stock tires....punching it in second gear breaks my yokohama autox tires loose like they are 80 dollar kumhos.


it is fun...if that is what you want...fun...then its worth your money.


and they run cooler than the jspec or any other shaft bearing setup...lots cooler...and lower engine bay temps are something I am always after.


j


good luck


j

Great point to bring up. The lightened flywheel will make the car feel super quick. The springs, shocks, sway bars, and tower strut braces will give the car a firmer feel and more grip in corners ... but don't play with that stuff on the street. Leave that stuff for the track. :)

The reason that I would want to run the M2's non sequencial is to get rid of vacuum hoses. The reason i'm even tempted by the M2's is the ability to make more power without changing my setup drastically. I'm aware that there would be more lag. I'm still thinking about it.
KD can get me into a Garret(I don't know the exact model :dunce: ) for $3,000. That's just the turbo though, not a kit. So there will inevitably be more work to be done. I really need to pass inspection, so that is the only reason I even investigate twins. I love the fast spool up of the sequencial, but there is not much support for 7's in Boston, and i'm tired of problems with the car. I'm looking to simplify it, which is the reason i'm interested in non sequencial.
I'll probably go single. No lag is a wonderfull thing though. Ah decisions decisions. Seeing someone actually pass emissions of some kind with a single would sell me.

what power band? You want spool so that there is boost at 2000rpms? what for are you going to race between 2000-4000rpms? Most racing is done at high rpm's anyways, having boost coming in at higher rpm's is usually no consequence. Also with a single, at higher rpms it is a lot more responsive than twins. plus the feeling of boost of a sudden kicking in is euphoric

well, it's actually a lot easier to install than most people would think. It's probably easier to install than swapping out the stock twins for another set.


my rx6 kit bolted right in, and it allows me to retain the airpump (provided I wanted to) and it involved no custom work except for making the intercooler piping and also welding an aftermarket blow off valve onto the piping.

SHOW ME THE MONEY! I wanna see a friggen dyno sheet already! I can make a bone stock FD fishtail that doesn't mean anything to me until I get numbers. How long has the M2 kit been out now? The only numbers I've seen were capt bill's and his car was not running right at the time

in my opinion if you are going to upgrade turbos you might as well go single...not only is your car drastically simpler, you also get lower water temperatures, lower underhood temperatures, and less turbo failure as well. Also the car is a lot easier to work on underneath the hood (if you ever need to do an engine swap) and also a lot more fun to drive as well. Seriously, lag is overrated...I got the RX6 thinking that I would hate lag, but if I could do it over again, I would have gone something bigger and more powerful!

You have to admit that you got a single with a rock solid reputation of having no lag. I think some people want to make a little more power than the RX6 can really make. There is no question that other single turbos(capable of more power) will lag more than yours will.
Don't get me wrong though, I agree with everything you've said. It's just that some people are going to see lag issues a little differently than you will. You have a great all around set up.

This argument is all about application. Street driving, auto-x, road racing ... it's all academic. IMO, if you're looking for big power, then singles are the best, most reliable route for it. Consequently, the power delivery makes for a very difficult car on an auto-x course or a road racing circuit. I've yet to see a competitive single-turbo'd RX-7 at an auto-x event. The sequential twins have a proven record for performance in organized racing ... albeit a very spotty maintenance history. If you're going to try and run lots of boost in non-sequential mode, I wouldn't stop at M2. There are other reputable shops that can do the reduced turbine wheel/BIG compressor wheel combo.

Useable power is another story. What I'd like to see is lap times for both a sequential twin setup and a mid/big single setup on a road course. Who's faster and why ...

What people fail to mention with running non-sequential or even single turbo is that it is not as streetable as running sequential. People really need to drive or ride in all 3 cars (single, seq, and non-seq) to appreciate why Mazda put in a sequential system. If you're into drag racing and highway runs only - go non-seq or single. If your into day-to-day driving, stop and go, autocrossing, and street racing, sequential is king. I raced a BPU+ Supra one time from 55-120 while I was non-sequential (stock twins)...I was in 3rd gear and out of my power range and downshifting to second probably would have cost me time since I would have to shift again quick. The Supra pulled a car since I was waiting for boost..I eventually reeled him in and past him at 110 mph, but if I was sequential I would have owned him. Sequential cars get boost immediately and as you guys will soon see in the dyno runs, upgraded twins will have immediate power at almost any rpms.

Bryan has my turbos apart now and is putting in the dynamic seals for even faster spooling and more reliability. The rat's nest is a pain but I haven't had any trouble with it while I was sequential for 2 years. I guess it all depends what you want out the car. To me, and upgraded twin sequential FD is the ultimate street car out there.

Very interesting. You have to wait for boost after everytime you shift? That was a very good real life example. In that one post, you might have persuaded me to stay sequencial. If I could make close to 400 at the wheels with a sequencial, I might not go single. I do believe that single is healthier for the car though.

btw fook...you forgot to mention that the rx6 just went up in price by almost two thousand dollars if I remember correctly...talk about over priced! what is it now 4800 or 5000 dollars???

it was a bargain when fook picked it up...easily my favorite single turbo for the money a few months ago.

however...i dont use my car only for racing...I use my car for darting around and having fun...I like immediate boost and if I have boost at 2k then Im happy...If I have full boost at 26-2800 rpms then Im extremely happy.

I very much enjoy being able to gun it at any point...If I get on it at 3k and have to wait for spool then the lane I want to be in is already closing up...if I have to downshift to get in the higher rpms then that lane is closing up. I agree very much that it all depends on what you want to do with the car.

if you want to autox then the m2 set would do well for you...response response response...if you want to run at the track then singles rule right? no arguing that. If I lived in the back woods a single would be a blast...but I dont...I live in the city and I want a fast fun car that tears it up.

I really feel that going non seq or single takes the spirit out of what mazda intended the car to be...they put small sequentials on for a reason...that is WHY I went with this car...the m2 set enhances all that mazda intended the car to be IMHO...at least in my mind.

but to each their own..what is right for me may not be right for you...each of you have to decide if you want to upgrade...what is it that you want the car to be?

each direction has their positives and negatives..weigh them out. I did and am happy with my decision. I wouldnt do it any other way. I got what I paid for.


jason

Do you have any idea what kind of power you're putting down?

Fookn

As far as i've heard, the RX6 kit that allowed the use of the airpump is new (if it even here yet). My friend had to fab something up w/ a GM electric pump. AND if you get it w/ the wastegate plumbed to the downpipe, it ain't 'xactly 3k... And everyones wastegate fails and requires you purchase a Tial or other. Getting IC pipes weled up aint cheap either. Its IS a GREAT setup, but based on my friends experience, its not perfect out of the box.

And YES, i do want emediate boost response. Ever raced an LSI or other big displacement car from a roll? IF i loose, its in the first couple of split seconds where i'm waiting for boost, and the LSI torque gives it an instant car lenggth or two for me to make up, and i can't always do it... THATs what i want to avoid... after it comes on, i'm as fast as most anything...

hopefully I will know soon.

a local guy here put down 351 at 14lbs on his m2 set I believe...if anyone is well connected at xs they can possibly call and see if xs has a copy of that dyno tuning session..they did the tuning for him.....the guys first name is greg..he has a sweet red third gen running the m2 setup. I can see if i can get ahold of him as well so we can put this to a rest.

that is the bottom of the efficiency range for those turbos as well..they really wake up at 16lbs plus. should put him at 400hp at 19lbs of boost..just as m2 promised. (m2 claims 400 to the wheels at 20lbs of boost)

I would call xs and ask them but I refuse to deal with them after they nearly blew up my car with their junk tuning on my pfc. When I think of detonation I think of xs and that is not a good mix for me.

perhaps fook can get a hold of that info from xs...he has had good experiences with them...it would be great to see.


j

RE: M2 Twin Turbos DATA!!!
 

Wow, I thought the M2 thread was probably dead LOL was I stupid.

Here is some much needed real data for this thread.

I've had my twins in for a couple of months. Dyno-tuned my PowerFC at XS Engineering. Attached are my torque and hp curves.

Briefly: Wheel HP at 15psi ---> 357.7
Torque at 15psi ---> 279.2

I run this on the street, daily. They spool up incredibly quickly. I am not running an after market boost controller, just the PowerFC. That actually worked better than my Blitz Dual SBC.

Other gizmos of importance on the car:

Exedy flywheel and ACT clutch
1300cc secondary injectors
PowerFC computer
B&M Ignition booster
Cosmo fuel pump
M2 large intercooler
M2 intake
nTech midpipe w hi-flo cat
Mazdatrix downpipe
Racing beat Cat-back
Greddy pully kit

RE: M2 Twin Turbos DATA!!!
 

Wow, I thought the M2 thread was probably dead LOL was I stupid.

Here is some much needed real data for this thread.

I've had my twins in for a couple of months. Dyno-tuned my PowerFC at XS Engineering. Attached are my torque and hp curves.

Briefly: Wheel HP at 15psi ---> 357.7
Torque at 15psi ---> 279.2

I run this on the street, daily. They spool up incredibly quickly. I am not running an after market boost controller, just the PowerFC. That actually worked better than my Blitz Dual SBC.

Other gizmos of importance on the car:

Exedy flywheel and ACT clutch
1300cc secondary injectors
PowerFC computer
B&M Ignition booster
Cosmo fuel pump
M2 large intercooler
M2 intake
nTech midpipe w hi-flo cat
Mazdatrix downpipe
Racing beat Cat-back
Greddy pully kit

u must be greg. :)

one thing to consider is that he is running these toward the bottom of their efficiency range. I noticed a healthier difference in power from fifteen to sixteen lbs than I did from say 12-13lbs...at higher boost they really get cooking.


j

the m2 turbos were previously available in two different wheel sizes...the ones I have are .59 which spool extremely quick and noticibley larger than stock...the set greg has has even larger wheels than what I have....the larger of the two optional sizes.

when I am finished with my dyno stuff you should see a difference in curve between his set and mine.

btw...the above numbers would put you at or over 400hp running 18-19lbs....which they are capable of doing.

glassman..where are you?


j

RE: M2 Twin Turbos DATA!!!
 

Hey Jason :) heard about you too!

Jason is correct in the projected hp potential of the turbos, I just wanted them tuned at something I could manage on a daily basis will less concern about longevity ergo the 15psi tuning.

One thing of note is the incredibly LINEAR onset of power and fairly flat torque band. The power is very predictable and extremely usable.

cheers to that...


here is a comparison to a kkk single turbo and the gt35 single.

for example..take a looksy at the power on the bottom gt35 at 300rpms...compare that to the m2 set...that is why I went with the m2 set.

take a look at the power on ernie t's kkk setup between 5-6k...interesting that they are pulling the same numbers through there....not bad middle either it seems. overall there is better performance from the m2 set from 3500 - 6000 rpms on the m2 set over this setup.

glassman where are you?

single turbos smoke up top...holy shit they fly...but down low the m2 set of gregs does perty well. thats how I like it.

I would like to see what your charts would look like if you ever run higher boost docchew...keep us updated.


j

http://www.conceptart.org/Rays/dynoc...son%20copy.jpg

if you can...download the torque chart and compare that to the singles as well...the m2 set compares very well and outperforms both setups down low CONSIDERABLY.

I know because I drive them..that the m2 set is the best possible setup available for tearing around town in city driving. singles and such are amazing...pure power...but I dont do most my driving in the rpm range of 6-8k. I do it in the 3-6k with occasional bursts into the high rpms.

here is the rx6 vs the m2 twins...note..both sets are not operating at peak 400hp range but the numbers are close enough to look at in the below charts.

where is fook?


jhttp://www.conceptart.org/Rays/dynoc...twinsvsRx6.jpg

I'm right here! :)
While those numbers are nice, they just don't floor me. :(
Not taking anything away from you or your car Gregg.
Those numbers can be had with stock twins and all the other mods. You will also save yourself $3,000!!!
Rich makes more power with stock twins at the same psi, Rikki makes more @ 11 psi.
Lets not forget that KDR tunes a little less aggresive then XS does.
Where is the 400 or 450 rhwp everyone keeps talking about??? :confused:
It may be great if you can push these thing up to 20, 30, 60 psi.
But why the hell would you want to do that???
With the $hit octane you have out there, I wouldn't want to run more then 16 or 17 psi on pump gas anyway.
Why not get something that makes 425-450 rwhp for around the same price???

Whe you guys talk about street racing it's usually from one light to the next, very short. In the illegal drag races it's about an 1/8th mi, not 1/4mi. In both of these scenereos the M2 kicks some booty :bootyshak ! You can launch at a lower RPM instantly, where I have bog launching low or wheel spin at higher RPM. With both cars running 14lbs in an 1/8mi there is no way for me to slingshot past him (allegedly) running parallel.

You can think of the M2's similar to an engine rebuild with better seals and lighter rotors. Some people call it a new engine and some people call it an upgraded rebuild.

You could actually race in a stock class with the M2's and kick everyones ass and no one would know how. ;) ...ultimate sleeper.

M2 isn't about the most HP for the money. It's about retaining the happy face in the city and occasional freeway sprint that the sequential turbos gave you. The problem with the stock sequentials is that they don't last at higher boost. My rebuilds lasted 25k mi and the last 15k of that was at 14lbs.

The GT-35/40 does seem like an excellent bang for the buck but I would think it's inital cost is higher than $3500 for parts not in the kit that you would need. You also have to include the hefty tips to your friendly neighborhood smog guy.

BNR and M2 are too new to know what their longevety is yet, but we allready know about the stockers. The '99 stockers would cost the same price as M2 at $3k.

glassman...sorry they dont floor you...but they do exactly as advertised...in the previous posts you had mentioned that you didnt believe they would work as advertised. these sheets show that they do. so stop being such a poopy pants. hahaha

compare different sections of the charts.

u wanted to know why to go m2 instead of single...it was exactly as I stated before..

1 you can get thru emissions in cali if you need to
2 you can keep all your low end and have better response than stock.
3 you can run high boost without high heat like the stockers which tend to melt down over 13lbs
4 the m2 seet are fun and are capable of 400hp..same as the rx6 is....at two thirds the cash or less...the rx6 is expensive now and it is the least laggy of the singles available.

you said you would run 17 lbs...well 17lbs on greggs car would put somewhere around 385 or so reliably...stockers dont put that kind of numbers reliably(turbo wise)...the stockers melt down at that kind of boost.

you didnt believe it..there are the charts. I will do some runs on the dyno soon...I will run the higher boost they are capable of and I will show you what 400 hp looks like.

go single..spend 5k on an rx6 if you want to keep your lag time down...enjoy it....keep the stockers..fry your stuff with extreme heat...

the stockers cant hit 400...period.

I didnt just throw down 3k to get the power...I needed new turbos...I could have gone jspec (not much diff)...I could have gone rx6(my first choice but smog scared me off) or I could go m2 and have a nice balance between the two and have even better immediate response.


j

How are these any better then the stock turbos power wise???
:confused:
You guys can bitch about smog and racing from light to light all you want.
Truth is, I don't have to worry about smog, and if you are really that worried about racing from light to light (racing is for the track BTW!) why not get a AWD DSM or S/3 or WRX???
Then you really can race light to light, why because they have a traction advatage, no matter how much more power your turbo's make down low.

Whats all this talk with how much more it would cost to go single???
If you really want to have power, you will have all the other mods to start.
I see that there is an upgraded IC, injectors, ecu, exhaust, etc...
If you are that worried about spending a few hundred dollars on a BOV and making some piping from your ic to the turbo you shouldn't be driving an RX-7!!!
Buy an XS kit, it comes with everything you need, BOV, and IC pipe as well. You will get more HP, a cooler engine bay, less headaches, a turbo that is much easier and cheaper to repair, you even get a warranty on some of the turbo kits!!!

they have better response...everyone who has them can attest to that...they make less heat (always a good thing)..and they can handle high boost abuse because of it.

they are more efficient as well.

captbills 40-70 times are the best on the forums I believe.

I was running 14lbs on stockers at one point...you know I probably had fairly similar numbers to when I was running 12lbs on my m2 set (except for the response of the m2s)...wanna know how long they lasted?

both sets combined lasted less than 12k miles...when I pulled the stockers apart they were melted and brittle from heat.

I ran the m2 set for six months at high boost...pulled them off to fix an exhaust leak...and the wheels looked as good as new. the exhaust wheels were clean too.

so how do you like them apples?

hehe

j


btw..the cars you mentioned are butt ugly. thats why.

rx7s are gorgeous.

There are plenty of people that have had the stockers take 14-16 psi for years and many of miles with no problems.
How many miles did you have the stock pre-cat on?
How many miles did you have your stock cat and exhaust on?
What kind of oil do you use?
These can help lead to an early death of the stock turbos. Of course many other factors come into play.
Now, I'm not saying that you should go out and jack your boost to 15-16 psi and just leave it there, but for those 11 second going down the track or using it on the highway you should be fine if you car and turbos are in good shape for a pretty long time.
So maybe your making 5-15 more hp at the same rpm. For $3,000???
Thats not including the other mods needed to support this.
If you like lower power, try a V8. There are also plenty of ways to drive with in the powerband. Thats what gear ratios and flywheels changes are for.

The only way the stockers can hit 400 hp is with HELLA mods. With that said, can the M2's hit more than 450 if you were to do alot more mods like IC and more free flowing exhaust? Or is a little over 400 all u can get?

0 miles on those sets with stock precat...was running intake exhaust dp streetport and ecu at the time..on a nice clean stock cat.


there are not plenty of people who run 16psi on stockers who have them last..Id bet that 90 percent of the people running over 13-14 psi experience turbo failure prematurely on the stock set.

I ran synthetic on the first set and run decent oil always. (except for my last oil change which was what they had...I religously change oil every 1000 miles)

there are no v8 cars I want or rather "want that I can afford". sorry..I hate mustangs..and hate camaros too.

you can run 16lbs every single day on the m2 set and have 370 hp at the wheels with a lot less heat.

there are no guys on these forums that can do that on stock turbos...right? a run or two and that is it.

3000 dollars either gets you a new set of jspecs..most of what you need to run a single (other than the now pricey rx6) or you can go m2/bnr.

I went m2 to gain back the lost power down low caused by my streetport. I also wanted to run higher boost at reliable temperatures. I wanted 360 to the wheels on a daily basis and didnt want the lag of a single.

I also lost two motors due to heat problems...the m2 set is a lot more efficient as I have said and the lower temps mean less high heat overall. that is good for me.

If my stockers were not shot..THREE TIMES...I would not have gone m2. Id have kept the stock set...but I was also tired of being beat off the line and the m2 set gave me my low end umph back that the streetport stole from me.

all in all I feel like the m2 set in conjunction with a streetport makes for a very balanced car. that is what I was after.

a little over 400 is what is to be expected out of the set due to manifold restrictions. that is a good number in my eyes regardless.

j

btw..the XS kit is laggy...and single turbos take away some of the spirit of the car on a city driving level...granted they smoke and are extremely powerful..high end performance is not what I am after.

I want balance..pure and simple. a single in the city driven daily is not the kind of car I would be able to enjoy here in LA.

Lets wait until we see if the M2's can hit 400 rwhp (which I really doubt) before you start talking about 450 rwhp.
Even if they can, it would have to be around 19-21 psi, and why in heck and where would you run that much boost?
Please tell me you don't plan on driving around with 20 psi!
Hope you can trust the fuel, tuning, your motor, etc...

I've (allegedly) raced an AWD Talon and won. I don't see a WRX being any faster. I didn't buy my 7 to compete with with F&F wannabe's but sometimes it's fun blowing them away.

I think the only problem Glass Man is looking at is the cost. Is the price justified for the power. Well that all depends on the person and the smog laws where you live. Not to mention how much you'll pay for the fun factor which is why you bought the 7 in the first place.

The '99 JDM twins will cost you $3k as well and don't have the HP but the trade of is they are new. Taking away the fun factor of the m2 quick spool, we would need to compare the BNR an '99's at 16lbs to see if Glassman point holds true.

why do you doubt they can hit that glassman?

I have stated all along that they should hit 400 hp at 19psi? with larger wheels and such gregs car should see about 12-15 hp per lb of boost...he is running 358 at 15lbs...that would put him in the vacinity of 400 easily enough....

thats the kind of thing for quick bursts as you mentioned with the stockers...which by the way is riskier because of the high heat from that set...

I trust my tuning...FD Racer and I did it ourselves. :)

I built my motor for high boost...high rpm abuse...thats why I paid to do the 3mm one piece ianetti ceramics.

Then all you need to do is find a dyno and use 15 minutes of your time and $50.00 to prove me wrong! ;)

Well a run or two that is it? My twins are original units with 129,000 plus miles on them. Daily driven at 13-14 psi and 6 pages of Dyno runs at 16psi. Countless 12 second 1/4 mile passes (Low 12's mind you) at 15-16psi and 2 runs in the 11's at 15-16 psi. It's all about how the heat is handled and how the car is maintained. I have always run synthetic oil, by a real synthetic manufacturer. Either AmSoil or Mobil one. No other manufacturer has the technology to make a 100% synthetic oil. They are all blends. True the heat does the damage but proper maintenance is the KEY....Ask Cameron from Pettit. I built my car for Road racing with his advice and it performs every time. I may be a rare case but it can be done!
Art

Thanks for the input, this is exactly what I was talking about.
I notice you put down the very same numbers as the M2 twins with your stock twins!!! :D

I think the down and mid pipes are what is keeping his turbos cool and extending their lifespan for so long.

One thing I noticed is that the 358 rwhp at 15 psi with the M2s was on a stock motor (I didn't see that in his mod list anyway) - this is a pretty healthy feat as most would agree that a streetport would add about 20-30 rwhp. Comparing the M2s to the single turbos, the M2s own the singles down low and even hold there own until about 6K rpms. I think they're pretty impressive. I agree that the stockers can't be run at 16-17 lbs of boost all the time - the M2 set allows you to do this and have incredible STREET power at hand at any rpms. I think that this is a happy medium for people who want to keep the same if not better response of the sequentials, but don't want the laggy, then all the sudden rush of power of a single.

The only thing that does bother me about the M2s is price and warranty. If artguy and greg feel they got what they wanted for $3K then that's great (defintely looks like a nice power increase)

The BNR twins with dynamic seals running sequential should be very comparable to the M2 twins. The only benefit it that they cost $1650 (might be more with dynamic seals..not sure) and have a 1 year warranty. Almost half the price of the M2s with a warranty and excellent customer service. One guy pulled 386 rwhp at 15 psi but have no dyno sheet..mine will be along soon.